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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-03-2017, 07:48 AM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

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I hate speculating, and it seems that's all I can do with second hand information. So I'm ordering some lab equipment to do some tests, and I'll make a new thread just for that. If anyone has some good suggestions of what to test, go add to that one!
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:14 AM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

In a quick and personal opinion, any food is only as safe as you prepare it.

We also have to remember that a parrot's digestive tract is not at all evolved from their wild counter part, and if we think about all of the bacteria/potentially hazardous microbes they consume in the wild, plus parasites, and yet they still miraculously survive for years... well, you get my point.

The amount of harmful bacteria on your cell phone alone is grotesque. Even in some people's beards. My previous boss did a smear of his beard and he grew an impressive fungus out of it. It was an awful smelling Petri dish, but it's certainly eye opening how well our immune system protects us.

Plain and simple - if you choose to sprout, be diligent and aware of the risks. If you feel you aren't diligent enough to wash it or feel it's too risky, simply don't do it.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2017, 08:03 AM
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Re: Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kentuckienne View Post
I am a very gullible person and easily convinced by facts. Google health benefits of grapefruit seed extract and yes, there are lots of positive references. I think the Wikipedia entry for it has the best neutral summary. Detailed research studies found no anti microbial properties in GSE, and the extract available to consumers contains other compounds, added to it during processing - such as benzethonium chloride and benzalkonium chloride - which are responsible for the observed antimicronial effects in prior studies. More and more, natural health practitioners are recommending that GSE should only be used topically and not taken internally.

I don't claim that sprouting of seeds doesn't improve their nutritional profile - only that it doesn't add any nutrients that can't be obtained otherwise from foods that don't carry the risk of the increased bacterial load created by sprouting seeds in warm, moist conditions.

Really not intending to wave a sharp stick around! I do try to keep most quibbles to myself, but there have been so many posts lately relating to sprouting that I jumped in. I did a lot of research on this a few years back when I was making some dietary changes, and many things - including GSE data - caught my attention, and I've been paying attention when I see things come across the news. Sprouts I had been on the fence until that huge outbreak in Germany a few years back that killed many people, which made me dig into it again and confirmed my reservations.

Even if seeds could be completely sterilized before sprouting - and they can't - the incubation process would bring the numbers right back up. And it's not possible to completely sterilize the finished product, either, as pathogens can be deeply embedded. GSE is not a selective antimicronial in any case, killing good bacteria along with bad.

Everybody can and will decide for themselves what to feed the fids. I only want to make some contradictory information available to anyone researching the subject. This is what peer review is all about - you show me your sources, and I'll show you mine, and folks can make informed choices based on a wider range of information. Much love to all of you, everything here is based on love!
Some more links relating to the text emboldened. FYI. (If anyone is still interested at this point in time?)

https://www.nutriteam.com/diff - my recommendation was for Citricidal® liquid concentrate. (GSE)

What about rumours of chemicals in GSE? https://www.nutriteam.com/faq#flora
I think I'm done, sincerely hoping that those who were contemplating having a go still will, the nutritional benefits to your parrot are very good.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:01 AM
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Re: Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

Quote: Originally Posted by plumsmum2005 View Post

Some more links relating to the text emboldened. FYI. (If anyone is still interested at this point in time?)

https://www.nutriteam.com/diff - my recommendation was for Citricidal® liquid concentrate. (GSE)

What about rumours of chemicals in GSE? https://www.nutriteam.com/faq#flora
I think I'm done, sincerely hoping that those who were contemplating having a go still will, the nutritional benefits to your parrot are very good.
Man, I just spent a couple of hours listing links and references, so I got logged out and lost the post. I will recreate it as much as possible ... the summary is that commercial Citricidal does contain preservatives, is effective against microbes (gram positive more than gram negative) and is toxic at concentrations up to 1:512. Why not just wash things in grain alcohol instead of a commercial chemical? For that matter, why does a "natural" antibiotic product need preservatives in the first place?

Starting with the links above: Nutriteam.com is a sales website, and presents no scientific support for their claims, only marketing material. The first thing I did was to see if I could find the actual studies they are downplaying, and I found them using Wikipedia (which contains decent information on the whole, accompanied by external links so we can validate for ourselves.)

----------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit_seed_extract

"Anecdotal claims for an antimicrobial effect are based on a few abstract scientific experiments which show some antimicrobial activity for commercial grapefruit seed extracts and an ethanol grapefruit seed extract but not a natural GSE. The preliminary studies for the antimicrobial effect state that the Citricidal commercial brand of GSE was used for testing. There is considerable scientific evidence that the anti-microbial activity associated with grapefruit seed extract is attributable to the contamination or adulteration of commercial GSE preparations with synthetic antimicrobials or preservatives. According to the 2001 GSE study, branded commercial GSE preparations were contaminated with synthetic benzethonium chloride that was implausible to be made from grapefruit seeds. Some of the marketers claimed that their product does not contain benzethonium chloride and the error was due to the similarity in molecular weight of the quaternary ammonium compound which was formed through a proprietary manufacturing process. It is inconceivable that the preservative benzethonium chloride is formed during any extraction and/or processing of grapefruit seeds and pulp. Researchers conclusively demonstrated the presence of benzethonium chloride in commercial GSE using various analytical methods including HPLC, one- and two-dimensional NMR, PIXE analysis, and electrospray ionization MS."

Nutriteam.com says "USDA found benzelthonium chloride in its 2001 test. Was this a simple error or a deliberate attempt to scare people away from Citricidal and Nutribiotic products?"

Umm, I have to say that separate HPLC, MS, NMR, and PIXE tests are probably not all in error, and that no reputable scientist cares about scaring people away from the dreaded Nutribiotic site. They are more concerned about being contradicted by peers, seeing as how they have to publish what they did and how, and if the study were in error or misleading these contradictory comments would have surfaced by now.

==========

The methodology used to test for the preservatives, in case anyone is interested, also seems quite proper. I have done thousands of HPLC analyses, though I haven't done this, but again if the procedure were wrong there would be much refuting evidence published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16719494

Development and validation of an HPLC/UV/MS method for simultaneous determination of 18 preservatives in grapefruit seed extract.
Ganzera M1, Aberham A, Stuppner H.
Author information

Abstract

Grapefruit seed extracts are used in cosmetics, food supplements, and pesticides because of their antimicrobial properties, but suspicions about the true nature of the active compounds arose when synthetic disinfectants such as benzethonium or benzalkonium chloride were found in commercial products. The HPLC method presented herein allows the quality assessment (qualitative and quantitative) of these products for the first time. On the basis of a standard mixture of 18 preservatives most relevant for food and grapefruit products, a method was developed allowing the baseline separation of all compounds within 40 min. Optimum results were obtained with a C-8 stationary phase and a solvent system comprising aqueous trifluoroacetic acid, acetonitrile, and 2-propanol. The assay was fully validated and shown to be sensitive (LOD < or= 12.1 ng on-column), accurate (recovery rates > or = 96.1%), repeatable (sigma(rel) < or = 3.5%), precise (intra-day variation < or = 4.5%, interday variation < or = 4.1%), and rugged. Without any modifications the method could be adopted for LC-MS experiments, where the compounds of interest were directly assignable in positive ESI mode. The quantitative results of several products for ecofarming confirmed previous studies, as seven out of nine specimens were adulterated with preservatives in varying composition. The samples either contained benzethonium chloride (2.5-176.9 mg/mL) or benzalkonium chloride (138.2-236.3 mg/mL), together with smaller amounts of 4-hydroxybenzoic acid esters, benzoic acid, and salicylic acid.

-------------------------
Regarding toxicity:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12165191

RESULTS:

These tests indicated that from the 1:1 through the 1:128 concentrations, GSE remained toxic as well as bactericidal. However, test results indicated that at the 1:512 dilution, GSE remained bactericidal, but completely nontoxic.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:56 AM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

Major issue concerning Wikipedia, anyone, and I do mean anyone can modify any submission!
I found this out from my kids! During high school, they would copy an article, word for word for a school paper. They would then replace the original with anything!
I did not believe this, so I just did a test.
I modified the first sentence in the above reference by adding test to the first sentence.
Grapefruit seed extract (GSE), also known as citrus seed extract, is a liquid test extract derived from the seeds, pulp, and white membranes of grapefruit
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:38 PM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

This is going to rumble on I feel.

"The bottom line is that while there is conflicting evidence of the other negative health effects of benzethonium chloride (and the diphenol hydroxybenzene present in GSE), at the very least it's a skin irritant that increases inflammation in the body. My personal opinion on it is that it is safer than other preservatives. However, if you prescribe to an organic mindset and lifestyle, you will want to avoid Grapefruit Seed Extract, for it is nothing other than a synthetic chemical."

Chemical of the Day - Most Controversial - The Truth About Grapefruit Seed*Extract

Yes agree re Wiki btw David, thanks.

Result = jury's out!
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:33 PM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Flboy View Post
Major issue concerning Wikipedia, anyone, and I do mean anyone can modify any submission!
I found this out from my kids! During high school, they would copy an article, word for word for a school paper. They would then replace the original with anything!
I did not believe this, so I just did a test.
I modified the first sentence in the above reference by adding test to the first sentence.
Grapefruit seed extract (GSE), also known as citrus seed extract, is a liquid test extract derived from the seeds, pulp, and white membranes of grapefruit
Yes, that's correct. Anybody can modify an article. In practice, this often corrects itself. Subject matter experts tend to take ownership of articles, get notifications of changes, and then re-edit them. Articles which get a lot of argument or trolling are sometimes frozen to prevent this. Everything there does need to be taken with a grain of salt, which is why I like to look at the external references as well. I do see the edits made today in the edit history...don't anybody else change it, it will be interesting to see if you addition stays in place!
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:27 AM
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Re: In my opinion, Sprouts are not safe for birds to eat.

As of this morning, the Wikipedia article has reverted to the non-test version. Details under "about this article". Wikipedia is fairly resilient.
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