Everything is bad? What to do?

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

Several years ago, I completely switched from a fortified seed/pellet mix to colored pellets because I read that a high fat/seed diet can cause kidney problems. Sonny was on that base diet for a couple of years. Then I read that the dyes were bad and tried unsuccessfully to switch to brown pellets. Meanwhile I read that high pellet diets can cause kidney failure (its even in the sticky here), and since the whole point of switching to pellets in the first place was to prevent kidney problems... I just went back to the fortified seed/pellet mix.

I have always given vegetables, but Sonny just doesn't eat enough of them for veggies to be his primary diet. For a while I even fed about half fresh fruit diet daily but read that was bad too so now I only give a few slices of fruit every couple days, and Sonny LOVES banana and apples. It seems like everything my Conure will actually eat any substantial quantity of is bad in some way so my thoughts were 1. too many seeds are bad, 2. too much pellet is bad, so that equals 3. fortified seed/pellet mix must be as good as it's going to get.

I'm re-evaluating his diet and reading this about new(to me) "fresh chop". I would like to start providing veggies in that manner to try and increase his intake, and perhaps eventually will be able to feed primarily veggies. In the meantime though should I switch back to a colored pellet base diet such as the zupreme fruit mix or kaytee exact, both of which he has taken a perfect liking to before? Or are the dyes worse than the fat from the seed? What is the lesser of the many evils?

Also, I don't feed a lot of "treats" except a yogurt covered sunflower seed 1-2 times a day for stepping up event though he doesn't need it, and a treat stick every few weeks. His seed intake is pretty much only what's in his mix.

Lastly, he likes any sort of bread, so he gets very small piece any time we make toast, rolls, sandwiches, etc. Not sure the nutritional value but I have read that "grains" are considered good, and we use wheat bread. Thoughts?

Thank you in advance for any constructive inputs.

chris-md · Nov 3, 2019

What kind of bird do you have? Your profile only lists an RIP.

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

Sonny the Sun Conure, you cant see it? Maybe I need to remove Ricky, its been 7 years since the boarder let a cockatoo kill him... he was an awesome little rescue.
Edit: I see now, its confusing the way I wrote it. Haven't been on the forums for a couple years. Changing it now, thanks for pointing it out.

chris-md · Nov 3, 2019

Ok thanks!

So the base of the diet should be a good pellet, not a seed mix. Conures aren’t seed eaters like cockatiels are. Fortified isn’t really bad for most parrots. It’s more a problem for the likes of eclectus, who have specialized dietary requirements.

From there, Throw in a diverse diet: seeds, nuts, fruits, veg.

KawaiiTori · Nov 3, 2019

barw33zy said:
Several years ago, I completely switched from a fortified seed/pellet mix to colored pellets because I read that a high fat/seed diet can cause kidney problems. Sonny was on that base diet for a couple of years. Then I read that the dyes were bad and tried unsuccessfully to switch to brown pellets. Meanwhile I read that high pellet diets can cause kidney failure (its even in the sticky here), and since the whole point of switching to pellets in the first place was to prevent kidney problems... I just went back to the fortified seed/pellet mix.

I have always given vegetables, but Sonny just doesn't eat enough of them for veggies to be his primary diet. For a while I even fed about half fresh fruit diet daily but read that was bad too so now I only give a few slices of fruit every couple days, and Sonny LOVES banana and apples. It seems like everything my Conure will actually eat any substantial quantity of is bad in some way so my thoughts were 1. too many seeds are bad, 2. too much pellet is bad, so that equals 3. fortified seed/pellet mix must be as good as it's going to get.

I'm re-evaluating his diet and reading this about new(to me) "fresh chop". I would like to start providing veggies in that manner to try and increase his intake, and perhaps eventually will be able to feed primarily veggies. In the meantime though should I switch back to a colored pellet base diet such as the zupreme fruit mix or kaytee exact, both of which he has taken a perfect liking to before? Or are the dyes worse than the fat from the seed? What is the lesser of the many evils?

Also, I don't feed a lot of "treats" except a yogurt covered sunflower seed 1-2 times a day for stepping up event though he doesn't need it, and a treat stick every few weeks. His seed intake is pretty much only what's in his mix.

Lastly, he likes any sort of bread, so he gets very small piece any time we make toast, rolls, sandwiches, etc. Not sure the nutritional value but I have read that "grains" are considered good, and we use wheat bread. Thoughts?

Thank you in advance for any constructive inputs.

Sorry, perhaps I’m confused, but I’m pretty sure the problems with the seed diet are the fats which can cause fatty LIVER disease (plus all the other things that excess fats cause problems with like arteriosclerosis just like for us humans). Excess sugar (such as with excessive amounts of fruits, grains or anything with any kind of natural or added sugar) can cause the same problems as the fats since anything that doesn’t get used up immediately gets stored as fat (just like with us humans). Also, the sugars can lead to behavioral problems (think hyperactive toddler)!

I’m not really sure what in a pelleted diet could cause kidney failure (I’ve never heard of this before) but possibly it would be from too many vitamins, so don’t feed a pelleted diet and then give any kind of vitamin supplement in addition to their food unless told to do so by your CAV.

Which exact brands of pellets have you tried? Also, how have you tried to serve them? In my experience even “boring” foods become interesting when served in a new way such as in a foraging feeder or mixed in with just a tiny bit of a favorite “messy food” (think mashed apple or banana).

Adding chop to your birds diet is an excellent idea but remember that there is just NO POSSIBLE WAY for us to come close to feeding anything close to variety of fruits and vegetables that our birds would consume in the wild. This being the case, it is not a good idea for your Fid to be totally reliant on chop for all of its nutritional needs. Feeding some chop plus a pelleted diet is a good route to go. Fruits, seeds and nuts can then be served as treats.

wrench13 · Nov 3, 2019

Try giving Sunny diced up jalepeno or habenero peppers( just wear latex or nitrile gloves when you dice them). Parrots have 1 taste bud for every 100 of ours, so they usually love hot stuff, and peppers have lots of good things in them. Also give a try to yams and squash, both cooked and diced. Also have lots of good nutricion. We make ahuge amount of chop and freeze daily amounts in small baggies. Thaw and add a small amount of Avicake which has pellets, and some seed, but we do that mostly to absorb any excess moisture of the thawed chop. THis batch we added organic 5 grain spiral pasta, cooked, and that seems to be becoming the first thing he goes for .

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

Tori I'm confused too lol... I just re-researched and apparently high seed diets can lead to vitamin a deficiency which can cause kidney problems, that's probably what i remember it from. I don't remember what brands of un-dyed pellet I tried as it was a couple years ago but I just remember he picked them out and tossed them, and kept going for the colored pellets only. I do use forage feeders but only occasionally the pre-loaded treat types and he does like them, I will have to see if I can find one I can load up myself. He seems to like forage toys better though. I really like your perspective on feeding chop AND pellet, I have no hesitations trying that. This is my main problem with reading about parrot diet, it seems like a lot of information is all or none, or at least presented that way... until the next "study" results.

wrench- I have read about spicy peppers but was super hesitant, thanks for the explanation on why, I will certainly try it out! Also I'm sure Sonny would love 5-grain pasta considering how much he likes bread, are these wheat/whole grains something that should be fed sparingly like treats or can it be a daily food item?

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

chris-md said:
Ok thanks!

So the base of the diet should be a good pellet, not a seed mix. Conures aren’t seed eaters like cockatiels are. Fortified isn’t really bad for most parrots. It’s more a problem for the likes of eclectus, who have specialized dietary requirements.

From there, Throw in a diverse diet: seeds, nuts, fruits, veg.

Thanks for the reply! When reading about wild Conure diet it is said that they eat seed, but I guess it's just not specified that the quantity is low. It makes sense though because I've also read that they are known to raid and destroy crops. I definitely should cut back on the seed then. If I did the math a 50/50 seed and pellet mix with 20% veggies makes 40% seed which is kind of high isn't it?

KawaiiTori · Nov 3, 2019

I have one of each of these and Tori only gets her pellets (the main portion of her diet) when she forages for them

.

https://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Toy...05167&sprefix=Parrot+foraging,aps,283&sr=8-25

https://www.amazon.com/Super-Bird-C...05428&sprefix=Parrot+foraging,aps,283&sr=8-38

https://www.amazon.com/Creative-For...05428&sprefix=Parrot+foraging,aps,283&sr=8-33

BTW, don’t pay any attention to the recommendations as far as “size of bird” goes! Tori is a GCC and she has no problem whatsoever with any of these!

KawaiiTori · Nov 3, 2019

barw33zy said:
chris-md said:

Ok thanks!

So the base of the diet should be a good pellet, not a seed mix. Conures aren’t seed eaters like cockatiels are. Fortified isn’t really bad for most parrots. It’s more a problem for the likes of eclectus, who have specialized dietary requirements.

From there, Throw in a diverse diet: seeds, nuts, fruits, veg.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply! When reading about wild Conure diet it is said that they eat seed, but I guess it's just not specified that the quantity is low. It makes sense though because I've also read that they are known to raid and destroy crops. I definitely should cut back on the seed then. If I did the math a 50/50 seed and pellet mix with 20% veggies makes 40% seed which is kind of high isn't it?

40% is VERY high! I give seed only as a training treat and only 1 little seed at a time...but I think I’m probably a lot stricter about diet than most, LOL!

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

Those are awesome, especially the wheel one. I like the idea of combining mental stimulation with meal time and it not being a treat food, I didn't even know they made something like that. Thanks for the links!

barw33zy · Nov 3, 2019

KawaiiTori said:
barw33zy said:

chris-md said:

Ok thanks!

So the base of the diet should be a good pellet, not a seed mix. Conures aren’t seed eaters like cockatiels are. Fortified isn’t really bad for most parrots. It’s more a problem for the likes of eclectus, who have specialized dietary requirements.

From there, Throw in a diverse diet: seeds, nuts, fruits, veg.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply! When reading about wild Conure diet it is said that they eat seed, but I guess it's just not specified that the quantity is low. It makes sense though because I've also read that they are known to raid and destroy crops. I definitely should cut back on the seed then. If I did the math a 50/50 seed and pellet mix with 20% veggies makes 40% seed which is kind of high isn't it?

Click to expand...

40% is VERY high! I give seed only as a training treat and only 1 little seed at a time...but I think I’m probably a lot stricter about diet than most, LOL!

well, i also read that pellets can cause kidney failure, so what am i to do lol? its even on the sticky for this forum. Thank you for the help. Also, to be clear Sonny has always been fine for his vet check ups, im not trying to solve a problem, just trying to improve.

edit: "Studies are showing that small birds fed a diet too high in pellets often suffer from kidney problems" when you dont know any other parrot caretakers in real life and your read stuff like this it's super confusing

Jen5200 · Nov 3, 2019

My conures also love foraging. Mine use the ones that Tori listed and also love this one. Tropical Chickens Parrot Bird Boredom Buster Forage Box Creative Hanging Treat Foraging Toy Conure Cockatiel Small and Medium Bird Enrichment Transparent Acrylic Food Holder https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RMF35GK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_RQYVDb9ACS5EV

Contents of foraging cups in my house are usually 2 different kinds of pellets and one of the cups has Zupreem pure fun. They get to work for their seeds here

. Mine have pellets available all day and get chop (mostly veg with a bit of fruit) morning and evening. They eat all of their chop and graze on pellets and what they forage the rest of the day. I’m guessing it works out to proportions of roughly 40% chop, 55% pellets, 5% seeds/other stuff (like Zupreem pure fun).

My chop includes veggies, fruit and cooked whole grains. My opinion on pellets - they give a more balanced set of nutrients than a seed-only diet. My birds all have their preferences for pellets - so with 6 birds, I have to keep several kinds of pellets. I feed Roudybush, Zupreem natural, Zupreem fruity and Lefaber. The best pellet for your bird - is the one it will eat lol! Sometimes you have to try a few kinds to find “the one”.

Laurasea · Nov 3, 2019

Tops, mazuri, oven backed
Pasta and bread are sugar just in a more complex form, some is good, but not much
You can mix softened pellets in cooked oatmeal or scrambled eggs, mine like that. Mine certainly live red hot chili peppers those are favorite!
Offer veggies whole, chopped, cooked, see what tgeyike best. Mine recently dug into whole fresh green beans, a big hit. Foot sized cubes if veggies like zucchinis, yellow squash. Pomegranate are good, and cranberries, blackberries, and cherries all those fruit hsveits of goodness in them
Try stuffing veggies through the bars, might tempt to nibble, hang a leaf of romaine right at their favorite perch, makes chew it up cuz it ticks em off hee hee!

fiddlejen · Nov 3, 2019

Ive been feeding my own Sunny a mixture of Kaylor's Sweet Harvest Conure & lovebird food (this has seeds and Other stuff in it -- but mainly, it does Not have banana nor any other foods on her Don't-Like-It list) --mixed almost equally with Avian Naturals "Just Say No Dehydrated Veggies" mix, with a small amount of Harrison's pellets and a just a few small pieces of dehydrated fruit mixed in. The reason I only mix in a little of the pellets is because she also has a separate small dish of pellets-only. She seems to like them as an occasional snack; the pellet dish usually needs refilling only twice or thrice weekly.

I also give her fresh veggies Every Day. However, I do Not chop them. I clip them around her cage, and also load her ring-a-bell with green beans. The other veggies vary, but they are all ones that she has shown interest in eating. (Or, just shredding!) I like to always give her something hard to rip apart, like carrot or broccoli stems. (The budgies get the broccoli tops.) Her other favorite is orange bell pepper. Sometimes she likes Kale.

I introduced these various items one-at-a-time, and paid attention to what had been chewed-upon when I get home. Some of it she's eating, and sometimes she just demolishes. I figure it's good for her either way. I definitely would not feel comfortable feeding a bird - or any pet - pellets-only.

fiddlejen · Nov 3, 2019

Also I recommend the Goldenfeast Conure food. All the ingredients are good, and it smells delicious! At least, in my opinion it does, and I would recommend it to anyone. UNLESS your bird happens to Not Like pecans. The delicious smell was partly from the pecans... which it turns out are another food on My Sunny's "Do NOT Like" list.

So she does not eat it. But she should!

ALso the Goldenobles pellets. Based on the ingredients list I would have loved to feed these to my birdies. However, it turns out that I am Allergic (!!) to something in them. I cannot hang out near my birds' cages if they contain Goldenobles. But, I would recommend any bird-guardian who does Not have unreasonable allergies, to try these pellets.

barw33zy · Nov 4, 2019

fiddlejen said:
Also I recommend the Goldenfeast Conure food. All the ingredients are good, and it smells delicious! At least, in my opinion it does, and I would recommend it to anyone. UNLESS your bird happens to Not Like pecans. The delicious smell was partly from the pecans... which it turns out are another food on My Sunny's "Do NOT Like" list. So she does not eat it. But she should!

ALso the Goldenobles pellets. Based on the ingredients list I would have loved to feed these to my birdies. However, it turns out that I am Allergic (!!) to something in them. I cannot hang out near my birds' cages if they contain Goldenobles. But, I would recommend any bird-guardian who does Not have unreasonable allergies, to try these pellets.

I like the ingredients of that goldenfeast: granola, corn, oats, barley, cranberries, pinto beans, sweet potatoes, black beans, pineapple, carrots, papaya, blueberries, raisins, tomatoes, peas, beets, peppers, etc. Its not pellets, its not too much seed, is it the perfect base food for a parrot's diet? I'm sure someone would say a lot of the nutrients are lost in the drying and preservation process, but I haven't read that any of these studies link dried veggies to kidney failure... yet, lol.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will be ordered that soon. Maybe I will mix it with some pellet too. The current mix I use, I bought because it has some of the veggies in it like corn and peppers, but not even close to goldenfeast, and it has more seed in it.

Also, I often do the same with whole veggies and hang/attach them to the cage but I really worry he isn't actually eating much and is just using them as chew toys, as evidenced by the leftover shredded carrot, spinach, etc that is found on the bottom of his cage lol.

fiddlejen · Nov 4, 2019

With my Sunny, if she shreds them, she's probably eating them too. All the bits of carrot, orange peppers, green beans and seed mix that land on the floor, are her attempts to grow carrot and green bean, etc, TREES. I've come to this conclusion because she entirely avoids tossing, or even touching, the foods she dis-likes. So I figure if she chews it And throws it on the floor, she likes it. So she must be eating it too!

Kiwibird · Nov 4, 2019

My amazon is on a lifelong renal friendly diet now due to kidney damage from an infection. He can have absolutely no artificial dyes or flavors in his diet at all because they are so bad for his kidneys. His avian vet, who has been a vet for a very long time and has seen the trends in bird diet come and go, put him on a no sunflower seed seed mix. Volkmans super hookbill mix specifically. The brand may have a mix for smaller birds too. He is also to eat freshly cooked grains like rice, oats etc... (no chop, no frozen) and as much fresh fruits and vegetables as he will eat, EXCEPT citrus and leafy greens, which are too hard on his kidneys. He likes fruit and eats plenty of it. I have no qualms feeding him fruit, his vet has no issues with it. I opt to feed fruit in the morning so he isn’t overly energetic before bed but that’s about it. He is also supposed to eat nuts every day. Pellets, which he gets a brand that are flavored with fruit and dyed with fruit/veggie juices (I don’t think his brand makes a mix for small birds) are to be extremely limited in his diet. He gets about 8-10 on top of his seed mix a day. He’s been on this diet for more than a year and seems to be doing well. No recurrence of the infection and normal poops.

As my vet explained, parrots are fruit, seed and nut eaters in nature and a lot of the diets that seem healthier are actually proving to not be now that birds have been eating them long enough for vets to see long term health on these diets. She also said most parrot species need hard foods like nuts and seeds in their diet, as they have an organ called a gizzard that is designed to grind up those foods and can become weakened eating too much soft, mushy foods. I tend to agree with my vet. My bird is still eating a good variety of nice, natural foods daily even with seed in his diet. I find further evidence supporting the fact this can be a healthy long term diet that my parents 2 birds, a cockatoo and amazon who are now in their mid-late 40s, are both in perfect health and have been eating... seeds, nuts and fruit/veggies for all their lives.

SailBoat · Nov 4, 2019

Fully agree with Kiwi's Mom position regarding an Amazon's Diet!
That Amazon is sooo lucky and what is worse, he knows it!!!

Adjust to full fill the needs of your Parrot and move ahead.

Kiwibird said:
My amazon is on a lifelong renal friendly diet now due to kidney damage from an infection. He can have absolutely no artificial dyes or flavors in his diet at all because they are so bad for his kidneys. His avian vet, who has been a vet for a very long time and has seen the trends in bird diet come and go, put him on a no sunflower seed seed mix. Volkmans super hookbill mix specifically. The brand may have a mix for smaller birds too. He is also to eat freshly cooked grains like rice, oats etc... (no chop, no frozen) and as much fresh fruits and vegetables as he will eat, EXCEPT citrus and leafy greens, which are too hard on his kidneys. He likes fruit and eats plenty of it. I have no qualms feeding him fruit, his vet has no issues with it. I opt to feed fruit in the morning so he isn’t overly energetic before bed but that’s about it. He is also supposed to eat nuts every day. Pellets, which he gets a brand that are flavored with fruit and dyed with fruit/veggie juices (I don’t think his brand makes a mix for small birds) are to be extremely limited in his diet. He gets about 8-10 on top of his seed mix a day. He’s been on this diet for more than a year and seems to be doing well. No recurrence of the infection and normal poops.

As my vet explained, parrots are fruit, seed and nut eaters in nature and a lot of the diets that seem healthier are actually proving to not be now that birds have been eating them long enough for vets to see long term health on these diets. She also said most parrot species need hard foods like nuts and seeds in their diet, as they have an organ called a gizzard that is designed to grind up those foods and can become weakened eating too much soft, mushy foods. I tend to agree with my vet. My bird is still eating a good variety of nice, natural foods daily even with seed in his diet. I find further evidence supporting the fact this can be a healthy long term diet that my parents 2 birds, a cockatoo and amazon who are now in their mid-late 40s, are both in perfect health and have been eating... seeds, nuts and fruit/veggies for all their lives.

Everything is bad? What to do?

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