Diet based on what indigenous species eats?

wrench13

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So Salty's species is very localized to the North East coast of Venezuela and the island of Bonaire ( just off the coast). That area, particularly the island, is considered an arid forest - lots of cactus and shrubs that do well in that environment. All I read about the diet of yellow Shoulder Amazons says they eat primarily fruit and cactus flowers ( of course other than mangos, the fruits they consume are not available in the USA and well, cactus flowers are not an option!). I confirmed the diet with the conservation organization on the island of Bonaire.

We all know that fruits are normally supposed to be a minor part of the daily foods parrots eat, for a number of reasons, but I wonder if that is sound in Salty's case. THis mating season we have severely curtailed the amount of fruit we offer him, because that is supposed to amp up the mating behavior, not really working; he is in the throws of mating season!

SO what is the boards opinion? Try to mirror the diet of the parrots native range? Or just offer a good , sound variety of established parrot foods?
 

Ira7

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I can’t even see why one Amazon species’ diet would vary so much from other Amazons anyway. Your guy eats cactus flowers back home because that’s what’s available to him. (The ABC islands are all pretty arid. The northeast coast of Venezuela isn’t.) But if you transported a flock to the inner Amazon (the jungle, not the bird), assuming they learn to adapt their foraging for different food stuffs, who’s to say they wouldn’t be even healthier in this new environment?

The anatomies are so similar.

So I vote for a standard all-round diet, based on no medical or scientific fact at all but just because you asked our opinions. If you’re specifically asking about hormonal triggers for mating, I haven’t been able to figure out MINE for the past 64 years, so I have less clue about birds.
 
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chris-md

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The purpose for minimizing sugar is 1) hormonal control, and 2) control obesity. Our birds in our homes aren’t flying miles a day like their wild brethren. Diet has to change for health reasons with varying activity.

Also, standard hormonal controls like reduced dietary sugar only take you so far in Controlling the hormones. It’s better for ekkies since they can be induced. But for amazons on an annual timer, it’s seasonal cues - THEN add on worsening effects like diet. You can’t really do anything about the baseline reaction which can nautry vary year to year.

Remember when everyone saw oct-April constant hormones last year? Not seeing it this year. It’ll hit differently every year, sometimes stronger than others.
 

chris-md

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I can’t even see why one Amazon species’ diet would vary so much from other Amazons anyway. Your guy eats cactus flowers back home because that’s what’s available to him. (The ABC islands are all pretty arid. The northeast coast of Venezuela isn’t.) But if you transported a flock to the inner Amazon (the jungle, not the bird), assuming they learn to adapt their foraging for different food stuffs, who’s to say they wouldn’t be even healthier in this new environment?

The anatomies are so similar.

So I vote for a standard all-round diet, based on no medical or scientific fact at all but just because you asked our opinions. If you’re specifically asking about hormonal triggers for mating, I haven’t been able to figure out MINE for the past 64 years, so I have less clue about birds.

adaptation and evolution would like to have a word with you.
 

Ira7

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I can’t even see why one Amazon species’ diet would vary so much from other Amazons anyway. Your guy eats cactus flowers back home because that’s what’s available to him. (The ABC islands are all pretty arid. The northeast coast of Venezuela isn’t.) But if you transported a flock to the inner Amazon (the jungle, not the bird), assuming they learn to adapt their foraging for different food stuffs, who’s to say they wouldn’t be even healthier in this new environment?

The anatomies are so similar.

So I vote for a standard all-round diet, based on no medical or scientific fact at all but just because you asked our opinions. If you’re specifically asking about hormonal triggers for mating, I haven’t been able to figure out MINE for the past 64 years, so I have less clue about birds.

adaptation and evolution would like to have a word with you.

Many, many animal species adapt and evolve over just one or two generations.

Darwin wants to have a word with YOU.
 

Laurasea

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I've searched for scientific studies of what parrots eat in their native environment.

I found one, and I will try and link. But thus study said that they were limited in what time of of year could conduct, example, not the monsoon season. And the difficulty of observing. I bet!

One thing that stood out, they eat a lot of leaf buds, and twig tips, and probably more insects. Also they ate more of the seed parts than the fruits. They classified most parrots as seed predators .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367951/#!po=30.2198

And will stick this one in again
https://www.royalbirdcompany.com/diet research amazon parrots.htm
 
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chris-md

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Many, many animal species adapt and evolve over just one or two generations.

Darwin wants to have a word with YOU.

He did, 2 years and a masters degree worth of a word. Radiation does not happen over one or two generations. Not by a long shot.
 

Tman

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Here is my opinion. Because he was captive breed and feed on a diet that was made up of seeds and stuff. This is what he knows. So I say keep him on his regular diet, but maybe try changing it around a little.
 

Ira7

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Many, many animal species adapt and evolve over just one or two generations.

Darwin wants to have a word with YOU.

He did, 2 years and a masters degree worth of a word. Radiation does not happen over one or two generations. Not by a long shot.

If a CAV did a necropsy on 5 Amazons, for example. Different species.

No feathers, no head (eech)...

Is he going to be able to tell you which species is which, based on anatomy? Nothing to do with evolution anyway...you brought that up...just their diet based on the same anatomy.

We have Quakers in Florida. Hell, they have millions in NYC! They don’t belong there and here, but they’re still thriving based on their “non-native” diets.
 

Laurasea

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My CAV said most Amazon and African greys she sees have heart disease and or fatty liver disease, strictly poor diet based. There is kidney disease, metabolic disease, bunting of papila all diet based. Vitamin and mineral, calcium deficit all diet based. Iron storage disease, diet based.

We have a long way to go to optimize captive parrot diets. Anybody read my science based studies in the links? They are few to find. Anyone have any others to share?

Basic necropsy at a vet office, doesn't include send out of organ tissue for analysis of vitamin, mineral levels, or pathology slides that read out damage at the cellular level. Plus few labs even do this.

As a collective we are doing terribly at parrot diets. We here all pretty much want to do better.
 

SailBoat

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It is very important to understand the vast range that the Family Amazona in fact covers; from the Southern areas of North America (Georgia to California) to the Southern areas of South America. Add to this, the reality that the Family Amazona is the largest in sheer number of species than any other species.

As Al indicated with the vastness of the range in which Amazons are found there is equally a vast array of Diets in which different species have 'evolved' over 'centuries' to exist. Those that have followed my responses to questions regarding diet may recall my recommendation that the individual Web Search their species natural range to understand what seasonal variations exist, what is available during different seasons and as a result how their natural diet vary from what is recommended in First World Nations.

There is a commonality of structure of the digestive system of hook bill Parrots. That would imply that what is a great diet for one species is great for all! That is a HUGE NO! As stated so well above, Parrots that have evolved in a specific area (range) and have adjusted to what is available and when as a means of extracting the needed minerals, vitamins and other requirements of life from what is available including protein. This should bring to mind that in some ranges Parrots will at different times of the year be deficient in some parts of their diet and as a result will adjust to those realities by changing when and to what extent they molt different feathers, their physical size, etc...

The basic question revolves around Hormonal Season and whether diet and more specifically when it starts and to what level one's Parrot is affected. There is no question that diet plays a part as the health of the Parrot is critical in a successful mating season. Sugar has been noted as an enhancer to the effects of the chemical flow with the effect being much like a young child on a sugar high.

Can a very 'healthy' diet not seen in the Parrot’s native range enhance the effect of the chemical flow. Simple answer is yes. The more complex answer has to do with that species in its native range using 'sugar' to stimulate itself in an environment that has a diet thinner in nutrients, although I have issues with the success of that occurring, more likely a shift in time of year when the range provides a higher nutriment.

Unlike last year, this year seems to be affecting Parrotforum Amazons very differently across North America. More likely an issue the vast variation in this Winter's differences in different areas.
 

chris-md

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Many, many animal species adapt and evolve over just one or two generations.

Darwin wants to have a word with YOU.

He did, 2 years and a masters degree worth of a word. Radiation does not happen over one or two generations. Not by a long shot.

If a CAV did a necropsy on 5 Amazons, for example. Different species.

No feathers, no head (eech)...

Is he going to be able to tell you which species is which, based on anatomy? Nothing to do with evolution anyway...you brought that up...just their diet based on the same anatomy.

We have Quakers in Florida. Hell, they have millions in NYC! They don’t belong there and here, but they’re still thriving based on their “non-native” diets.

1) there are entire fields of biology called comparative morphology and comparative anatomy that vets and doctors alike have to study. Anatomical comparisons is how classical biologists like Linnaeus and Darwin first idenditified species. It’s why museum species exist. So yes, in theory a vet could actually tell without a head because difference exist outside of the head. Internal differences may be subtle, but they definitely exist, from the shape of the gizzard right down to the molecular/chemical level with naturally different hormone/nutrient levels.

2) you are confusing the concept of invasive species with the concept of speciation/radiation that happens over millennia. Two completely different topics. Any species can become invasive if they adaptable enough to both climate and diet, AND lack predators. But no, you can’t blanket say “they look the same, so they can all live on each other’s habitats”. Absolutely NOT. Quite the opposite, you start with the assumption that each adapted to their own environment and assume they won’t survive anywhere else. A jungle species will have a very hard time in an arid landscape to begin with.
 
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Ira7

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My CAV said most Amazon and African greys she sees have heart disease and or fatty liver disease, strictly poor diet based. There is kidney disease, metabolic disease, bunting of papila all diet based. Vitamin and mineral, calcium deficit all diet based. Iron storage disease, diet based.

We have a long way to go to optimize captive parrot diets. Anybody read my science based studies in the links? They are few to find. Anyone have any others to share?

Basic necropsy at a vet office, doesn't include send out of organ tissue for analysis of vitamin, mineral levels, or pathology slides that read out damage at the cellular level. Plus few labs even do this.

As a collective we are doing terribly at parrot diets. We here all pretty much want to do better.

But they’re only studying domesticated birds, right?

They can’t do a valid comparison to wild birds, can they?
 

Ira7

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He did, 2 years and a masters degree worth of a word. Radiation does not happen over one or two generations. Not by a long shot.

If a CAV did a necropsy on 5 Amazons, for example. Different species.

No feathers, no head (eech)...

Is he going to be able to tell you which species is which, based on anatomy? Nothing to do with evolution anyway...you brought that up...just their diet based on the same anatomy.

We have Quakers in Florida. Hell, they have millions in NYC! They don’t belong there and here, but they’re still thriving based on their “non-native” diets.

1) there are entire fields of biology called comparative morphology and comparative anatomy that vets and doctors alike have to study. Anatomical comparisons is how classical biologists like Linnaeus and Darwin first idenditified species. It’s why museum species exist. So yes, in theory a vet could actually tell without a head because difference exist outside of the head. Internal differences may be subtle, but they definitely exist, from the shape of the gizzard right down to the molecular/chemical level with naturally different hormone/nutrient levels.

2) you are confusing the concept of invasive species with the concept of speciation/radiation that happens over millennia. Two completely different topics. Any species can become invasive if they adaptable enough to both climate and diet, AND lack predators. But no, you can’t blanket say “they look the same, so they can all live on each other’s habitats”. Absolutely NOT. Quite the opposite, you start with the assumption that each adapted to their own environment and assume they won’t survive anywhere else. A jungle species will have a very hard time in an arid landscape to begin with.

You’re missing the entire damn issue. And I can’t believe you still feel compelled to argue an indisputable point:

Many Amazon species thrive on the same diet, many thrive even more so, than those food stuffs found in their natural habitat. ESPECIALLY domesticated birds.

Believe what you want. I just laugh at your beliefs.

Especially since all of us parronts feed a diet that 90% consists of food stuffs not found in their native regions.

But yet, you think you’re way is healthier!
 

LaManuka

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This thread is beginning to deviate away from Wrench13’s original intent. Other debates and differing viewpoints will inevitably surface alongside the original topic and they are also welcome, provided they can be discussed without hostility or animosity. May I respectfully request that members bear this in mind when posting, and that debates are civil in nature. Thank you.
 
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wrench13

wrench13

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Chris, Ira, thank you for your opinions, both have merit to me. I do think that evolutionary dietary influence can occur when the population is so small and the area so protracted and specific in it's flora. YSA eat fruit, a lot. Tamarinds, mangos and 2 other native fruits that I cant remember just now, but aren't available in the USA. 'Boats has a good point too, as usual, in that during the time most fruit are ripe and ready to eat, the parrots load up, and when that time of the year goes by, they may start to add the protein that fruits do not have. Its not an even level of any one nutrient in the wild. And yeah proliferation of high energy sugars likely does influence mating season I think.

And yes Laura, I look up almost every website from your thread.
 

Laurasea

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This one is interesting and has some diet information on Amazon
https://zoologica.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/the-behaviour-of-wild-amazon-parrots/
" Wild Amazons generally eat a wide variety of food items. For example, Lilac-crowned Amazons eat food from at least 33 species of plants, and their diet includes 81.8% seed, 8.8% fruit, 6.6% insect larvae, and 2.9% bromeliad stems (Renton, 2001). Puerto Rican Amazons eat food from at least 60 plant species, and their diet consists primarily of seeds and fruits, although leaf buds and flowers are also included in their diet (Snyder et al., 1987). Most Amazons forage silently up in trees and rarely descend to the ground."
 

Laurasea

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My CAV said most Amazon and African greys she sees have heart disease and or fatty liver disease, strictly poor diet based. There is kidney disease, metabolic disease, bunting of papila all diet based. Vitamin and mineral, calcium deficit all diet based. Iron storage disease, diet based.

We have a long way to go to optimize captive parrot diets. Anybody read my science based studies in the links? They are few to find. Anyone have any others to share?

Basic necropsy at a vet office, doesn't include send out of organ tissue for analysis of vitamin, mineral levels, or pathology slides that read out damage at the cellular level. Plus few labs even do this.

As a collective we are doing terribly at parrot diets. We here all pretty much want to do better.

But they’re only studying domesticated birds, right?

They can’t do a valid comparison to wild birds, can they?

I'm thinking you didn't take the time to read the linked scientific study of wild parrots foraging and food choices?????
 
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wrench13

wrench13

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Anyone know what the word canifrons means when used in the taxonomic description of a species?

Running into this example: Amazona Barbadensis canifrons. I've seen two YSA species listed, barbadensis barbadensis, and barbadensis rothschildi, and now this canifrons
 
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Laurasea

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Yiu might like this. Haven't found the new subspecies listing yet
https://journals.tdl.org/watchbird/index.php/watchbird/article/view/907

" Yellow-shouldered Amazon has a limited and distinct range with genetically isolated populations in Bonaire and Curaçao as well as northern Venezuela and the Venezuelan islands of Margarita and La Blanquilla. Bonaire has a globally significant population of Yellow-shouldered Amazons, which breed on the island between March and August. The female lays three eggs in a nest built in a tree or cliff hollow, and incubates them for 26 to 28 days. Once hatched, chicks remain in the nest for two months before fledging. After they fledge, the chicks stay in family groups for several more months. Yellow-shouldered Amazons form long-term monogamous pairs, which is an unusual trait for birds."

This one talks diet plasticity
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10336-015-1255-9.pdf
 
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