Ok... Bare with me on this..!!

So, I opened my new parrot magazine today and read a article in there about 'taking your birds out side' now, I've always been for this, homes just aren't natural for them, however big there play gym is.

Now in this article the chap mentioned wing clipped birds he had that used to go up into fruit trees at home and the enjoyment and the benefits of this.

Now, 2years ago I had my BFA clipped due to her flighted attacks on my mother. It that time I used to take blue out side and put her in an aviary I had built for her. She used to scream the place down as soon as I left her there, so one day I decided to put her in the tree at the top of our garden. She absolutely loved it in there, climbing about, nibbling leaves, twigs and sunning her self, it was a joy to see her.

Since then I wanted to try free flying her so allowed her feathers to grow back. We'll..... She just doesn't like flying, and despite trying to train her she's more than happy just to sit there, she only flys if 'encouraged' I.e I run down the room with her on my arm, she doesn't want to know.


Sooo to the main bit.

I'm thinking of getting her clipped again. I can't see that it will affect her to much as she rarely flys, plus with summer on its way it would be nice for her to experience the big out side again, the joy of being in the trees, going for walks, nibbling grass etc etc, the only problem being is I HATE how her wings were clipped before, basically they left 3primaries either side and had the rest off. I nearly cried when I saw the pile of feathers on the floor,

Sooo... Is there a 'better' way to clip wings, something more gentle?? Not so aggressive???

I won't use a harness, esp if she's going into the tree, just in case it snags etc.

And I'm fully aware birds can still potentially fly when clipped. Also I'm aware of potential dangers.. I.e cats/other birds etc. but she wouldn't be left un supervised.

I can just remember the sheer joy on her face running up and down branches etc... I want her to experience it again!!!

Oooh this is a really controversial subject... The mods will be watching the 'tude here... Why not take a look by using the "search" button? There's tons of info on this

I think only you know your bird well enough that you'd know if your bird would truly be compromised, or would think nothing of being clipped, as in my 20 year old Red Bellied who I bought at a store and never fledged. Never tries to fly, and once when he did, he'd crash all over and would nearly hurt himself. I know your situation is different.

IMHO free flying might be best learned when younger, and I don't think is appropriate for every bird/owner. Also it's a pretty major, involved learning process that can take a long time to be 'ready' to actually go outdoors and be 100% confident enough. Might as well make it your long term 'hobby'. Even with long time "professionally" trained birds there are risks.

BACON said:

So, I opened my new parrot magazine today and read a article in there about 'taking your birds out side' now, I've always been for this, homes just aren't natural for them, however big there play gym is.

Now in this article the chap mentioned wing clipped birds he had that used to go up into fruit trees at home and the enjoyment and the benefits of this.

Now, 2years ago I had my BFA clipped due to her flighted attacks on my mother. It that time I used to take blue out side and put her in an aviary I had built for her. She used to scream the place down as soon as I left her there, so one day I decided to put her in the tree at the top of our garden. She absolutely loved it in there, climbing about, nibbling leaves, twigs and sunning her self, it was a joy to see her.

Since then I wanted to try free flying her so allowed her feathers to grow back. We'll..... She just doesn't like flying, and despite trying to train her she's more than happy just to sit there, she only flys if 'encouraged' I.e I run down the room with her on my arm, she doesn't want to know.


Sooo to the main bit.

I'm thinking of getting her clipped again. I can't see that it will affect her to much as she rarely flys, plus with summer on its way it would be nice for her to experience the big out side again, the joy of being in the trees, going for walks, nibbling grass etc etc, the only problem being is I HATE how her wings were clipped before, basically they left 3primaries either side and had the rest off. I nearly cried when I saw the pile of feathers on the floor,

Sooo... Is there a 'better' way to clip wings, something more gentle?? Not so aggressive???

I won't use a harness, esp if she's going into the tree, just in case it snags etc.

And I'm fully aware birds can still potentially fly when clipped. Also I'm aware of potential dangers.. I.e cats/other birds etc. but she wouldn't be left un supervised.

I can just remember the sheer joy on her face running up and down branches etc... I want her to experience it again!!!

Click to expand...

Clip the outside four primary flight feathers half way down.

Mine go outside in the tree every nice day. It does wonders for them. I think they need that psychologically... I notice a real behavior change in the winter when it's too ugly to go outside...

Chew toy? Those are called branches. Shredder toy? Those are called leaves. Forraging toy? Those are called fruits and nuts. This fulfills their natural instincts in ways that man made toys NEVER could. [Rocket science!] They can adapt to our world, but this IS their world. An hour or two a day outside in a tree works wonders.

But then, mine are trained to stay put, and they come down to me when I call them back.

I agree with birdman they need that outside time in nature! However I also belive birds need to fly. Its not natural for them to inside the house and they may not want to if they don't have to but its healthier for them if they do fly. I'm not gonna go all into it if you wanna check it out just search it on here there's lots of topics. To get them to fly in the house can take a lot of work I had to work very hard to get my blue crown conure to fly he hated it and never wanted to but after I finally got him trained to do it he loved it and he had so much joy while flying!!! It took me months to get him to where he is now but it was worth it for him. First step is getting their muscles built up I would hold his wings out for about 30 seconds each at first cause he had zero wing muscle! And then encourage them to flap them often I did this by dancing to music with my conure and giving him frequent showers he would flap like crazy to get all the water on him I swear he's part fish lol. And then yes a lot of running to get them to fly off you its a workout I find that if there is a breeze they like to fly more obviously no ceiling fans should be on to create a breeze but dloow fans work well. After they get used to flying when you run they will learn to go when you act like your gonna run and flap your arm and when they get that down and they know they get rewarded when they do fly you can try and get them to fly off a flat surface to you flat surfaces work better at first cause the bird isn't gripping something and leaning off it instead of actually flying. If you don't want to do this and really dedicate your time to training him to fly id say since he's not flying anyway clip the wings in summer so you can at least take him outside to experience that.

You don't need to worry RavensGryf. This isn't a should I shouldn't I thread, or ones like we only just had. More a what's the best clip.??!!

Birdman666. Thank you sir. I think you understand what I mean.

And yes MarciaLove flying is also a natural thing birds do.... Mine just doesn't. We managed to get her to fly to me for treats at about 2ft, off the back of the sofa. But she just looks at it now and just turns away. She'll only fly after my mum if she gets to close, or it I run down the room with her. In 11 years I've had her I've never known her to fly for fun!!!

I take it birdman666 that your birds are clipped to some degree?? I think this out side climbing,chewing, shredding will benefit MY bird more that allowing her to fly... IF she ever desires to.

Sorry BACON, I won't worry
**embarrassed, hiding my head**

RavensGryf said:

Sorry BACON, I won't worry
**embarrassed, hiding my head**

Click to expand...

Haha that's ok. Well I wasn't going to just put that as a question.
'Whats the best clip'??
I wanted to give some history and my reasons behind the question. Other wise it might of kicked off lol.

Bacon -

I would not take your bird to clip the feathers, I think you are better to do that at home yourself. From the sounds of it, you only need to take the first couple flight feathers just to further discourage. You should never have a pile of feathers after a clip, not sure what they did to your poor bird, but you were right to be upset!

Birdman gives great advice

Aha, got it Bacon

I've been pondering this... it is amazing to me how regularly I've heard, and have even met people who say that they had parrots with clipped wings who accidentally got caught up in a gust of wind and flew off forever (or gotten by a predator no doubt). I can see a parakeet species, but a heavier bodied parrot? I assume most people aren't out with their parrot in a windstorm either. It really surprises me how easily they say it can happen.

Amazons are prone to health problems due to poor diets and a lack of activity... in a situation like that, I would definitely recommend teaching them flight.



Here's an image that might help.....

Light blue line indicates the "half clip" - you can trim up to 10 feathers, and if the bird can still fly, trim a little more. This is one of the better clips because it gives support to new growing feathers, thus less chance of blood feathers breaking. The downside is that the ends can be itchy and bothersome to birds. May even result in plucking or over-grooming in some birds.

Green line indicates the "coverts clip" - trimming the flights up to the coverts. Again, you may only want to trim a few first, starting from the outside and see how well the bird flies. Leaves no support for new growing feathers and the ends may still be itchy/scratchy to the birds.

-Alternative - "quill clip" - this is a 'modified coverts clip'; you trim the same feathers, however you cut the feathers at the quill instead of at the coverts. This clip may be best for birds known to pluck or over-groom themselves when other clips bother them. This also has a more appealing look since you wont see the clipped feathers as easily.

Yellow line - the "show clip" - or the clip that your zon had. "Appealing" in the sense that it still appears if the birds have flights when they don't. This clip can be dangerous to some birds as they might have a higher tendency to get those outer flights stuck in something.






Quill Clip Lorikeet




Half Clip Macaws & Lovebird








Covert clip galah (rose breasted cockatoo)






-------------


Is the aviary not large enough to put a tree in?

I keep them clipped for safety purposes.

I used to free fly them. Then I lost one to an owl. I had another hit by a car. I had two more get startled inside the house, and fly into a window and become injured. I lost my CAG three times, and luckily managed to get him back, TWICE I LOST HIM OVERNIGHT, ONCE HE WAS GONE FOR DAYS. My red lored was attacked by a flock of crows while free flying one day, and I had to climb a 50 foot tree to get her back. My Red Fronted macaw flew off and got lost once, and I got her back, and flew up to the top of a three story building and refused to come down for about two hours. I had my lilac crowned amazon get startled and fly off on me...

And I had talented friends who also recalled their birds, and flew them... several times we had to deal with the heartbreak of a bird that never came back, or worse, watching a hawk snatch your baby right out of the air in front of you... THEY ARE ENTERING THE FOOD CHAIN, WITHOUT THE PROTECTION OF A FLOCK, OR HONED NATURAL INSTINCTS TO PROTECT THEM FROM PREDATORS, OR FORAGE FOR FOOD AND WATER IF THEY GET LOST! So, yeah, freeflighting sometimes improves their quality of life. Other time, it simply KILLS THEM!

AND YES, I HAVE EXPERIENCED BOTH OF THOSE SCENARIOS... So, I have some pretty strong opinions on the matter formed by years of doing it, and the loss of several birds I dearly loved...

So now I am ABSOLUTELY a firm believer in clipping... and I don't free fly them anymore. Even though three of mine are still recalled and would never fly off on me in public. They are happy playing in their tree in the front yard, and it is infinitely less risky...

I have three that are "out and about" trained. They have been startle trained, they have been recalled, and I can quite literally set my (FLIGHTED!) greenwing macaw down on a chair outside Starbucks, go in, get a cup of coffee, and come out to find her sitting right where I left her... She sits outside on her playstand at the laundrymat for about two hours every Saturday... it's our one on one time. (Plus laundry is boring!)

Hell, I've taken the macaws and my red lored amazon to the drop zone, and gone and jumped out of airplanes, and played with the birds between loads... They loved being outside in a tree, and I loved having them out with me. WITH AIRPLANES TAKING OFF AND LANDING IN CLOSE PROXIMITY, AND ALL THOSE BIG STRANGE LOOKING HALF-HUMAN BIRDS SWOOPING IN EVERY 15 MINUTES OR SO... plus a couple of hundred "strangers" coming up to them.

I have two that are prone to panic and fly off when taken out of their comfort zone. So, those two are fine out in a tree in the front yard, but NOT SO MUCH if I took them, to say, Starbucks, or the Laundrymat, or the DZ. They are my "homebody" birds.

The reason I can safely put them in a tree, is because they DO come back, and they don't go flying off from tree to tree, because even clipped they could potentially do that. (Sounds like yours isn't interested in such things really.) It's honestly about the bird, your bond with the bird, the bird's natural tendencies, and what they have been conditioned to accept.
My macaws tend to play in the tree for awhile, but they want to be lap birds. Four of my five hang out fairly close to me on the lower branches.

My red lored is one of my most bonded birds, but her "spot" is about 3/4 of the way up the tree. SHE IS RECALLED, AND I USED TO FLY HER. SHE IS A PAIR BOND BIRD AND IS VERY, VERY, VERY BONDED TO ME. All I have to do is call her, and she comes. In fact, there was a 35 foot plus tree in the park that my daughter used to play in that she used to love. I had some smug ba$tard LAUGHING at me, and taunting me with "I'd like to see how you're gonna get that bird down from there." Just to shut him up I started walking away from the tree, gave the recall signal and called her, and pointed to my shoulder.

She landed on my shoulder a fraction of a second later.

He shut up!

I told her she was a good bird, gave her a treat, and put her back down in her tree.

BACON said:

Haha that's ok. Well I wasn't going to just put that as a question.
'Whats the best clip'??
I wanted to give some history and my reasons behind the question. Other wise it might of kicked off lol.

Click to expand...

The board has been pretty busy the past 24 hrs. You could always "BUMP" up your thread again if it gets kicked off, but then risk being labeled as that obnoxious person who bumps up their own threads... lol.

Hey maybe I better be kidding here... I might have to do it myself at some point

With a heavy bird, who is not inclined to fly anyway, I'd say the four primary flights half way up would do just fine.

You want them to be able to flutter or glide down. You don't want them to gain altitude. Just remember that on windy days, a gust can, and might carry them a long ways. Once the gust sets them down, that is where they are, until another gust of wind comes along...

They can catch and updraft and ride it a fairly long ways. And if the windspeed is say 30 or so miles an hour... they could drift far enough away to be difficult to find.

So WIND is one thing to be careful about. Predators in the area is the second Primarily hawks, falcons, and cats.

Birdman666 said:

With a heavy bird, who is not inclined to fly anyway, I'd say the four primary flights half way up would do just fine.

You want them to be able to flutter or glide down. You don't want them to gain altitude. Just remember that on windy days, a gust can, and might carry them a long ways. Once the gust sets them down, that is where they are, until another gust of wind comes along...

They can catch and updraft and ride it a fairly long ways. And if the windspeed is say 30 or so miles an hour... they could drift far enough away to be difficult to find.

So WIND is one thing to be careful about. Predators in the area is the second Primarily hawks, falcons, and cats.

Click to expand...

Interesting as always Birdman. Thanks. The one man who told me it happened to his B&G was at the beach, so I could definitely see unexpected gusts there. Also maybe we hear about it so much because the bird is not clipped adequately enough to be outdoors without harness and not recall trained...

The only way to take a clipped parrot outside "safely" - with no possibility of the bird flying off, is to literally ground the parrot. Clip so many feathers that there is no possibility of flight whatsoever.

Safe in the fact that the bird wont be able to fly even with a gust of wind, dangerous in the fact that the bird wont be able to land properly which could lead to a broken beak, broken keel bone, broken legs, etc.



Birdman is correct though. More slender birds like cockatiels you can sometimes clip up to all 10 primary flights and the birds can still fly! Heavier bodied birds you can clip 3-4 on each wing and they may not be able to fly. The only way to find out is to clip a few, test fly the bird, clip one or two more if the bird can still fly, then test fly the bird again.... until the bird can only glide.




I would opt for building a large enough aviary that a tree could be planted inside of it though.... that, or building the aviary around a tree! That way, you have the safety of an aviary but the fun of a tree!

I've got first hand knowledge of that one!

Skydivers ride wind gusts too! There was one day the upper winds were somewhere around 45 mph... My "normal" tracking speed is about 175 mph. With a 45 mph tail wind, it suddenly shot up to about 220!!!

The plane took us way, way, way off the drop zone, about 7 miles or so, and let us out. I went into a full on flat track heading back, thinking there was no way in hell I would make it back to the drop zone from that long of a spot...

Then very nearly over shot the landing zone!!!

So, yeah, always pay attention to wind speed and direction. It will show you where to go look for them. You can actually do the math and figure out by wind speed direction, and approximate weight, an approximate area where they would be. And that becomes your search grid...

Freeflying... it happens sometimes.

There is A LOT you need to know to do this safely, and just to head off future inquiries, no, I can't teach this stuff over the internet. I am not going to be responsible for anyone losing their birds today...

Not to appear unfriendly, but it isn't safe to teach it this way.

monicamc said:

the only way to take a clipped parrot outside "safely" - with no possibility of the bird flying off, is to literally ground the parrot. Clip so many feathers that there is no possibility of flight whatsoever.

Safe in the fact that the bird wont be able to fly even with a gust of wind, dangerous in the fact that the bird wont be able to land properly which could lead to a broken beak, broken keel bone, broken legs, etc.

Click to expand...

exactly! Never, ever, ever cut secondary flight feathers... The bird will end up either having to just sit there doing nothing for six months, or he will get injured.

MonicaMc said:

I would opt for building a large enough aviary that a tree could be planted inside of it though.... that, or building the aviary around a tree! That way, you have the safety of an aviary but the fun of a tree!

Click to expand...

The extent to which each person wishes to go to remain safe is up to them.

But then, you still have to get them from the house, into the aviary, don't you... so even THAT doesn't eliminate every possible risk. Unless the bird is harnessed doing it.

Thanks birdman, great replies. Well the tree I would be using is sat in the middle of the garden and up against the back fence. It's about 20metres to the nearest tree. The tree is about 10metres high but it's pretty wide, it'll be getting clipped back before summers here to reduce size. I understand the wind/gusts. We have people living either side but it's just a grass meadow at the back.


Thanks you monicamc. That's a great diagram. Yes my bird did have the show clip.... And maybe more :S

I just hate the look with just 'stubby' wings from clipping. I prefere the show clip but can see the reasons you gave for why its a bad idea. I guess it's something I'll just have to look into and try think about.

The aviary isn't big enough to house a tree. It's 8'-4' and 6' high it has branches in it etc BUT like I said before, she hated being in it and just screamed. All the time she sat in the tree climbing nibbling etc I never heard a peep out of her.

Harness or a carrying cage, too! (or attaching aviary to the house via a window or a door!)


Bacon, what about putting freshly cut branches into the aviary? You did say the tree will be trimmed back before summer.... so why not put some of those branches into the aviary????