What would you do?

Minimaker

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I was planning to buy a macaw from a breeder located within driving range (because there aren't many breeders in my general vicinity that I can find) and I've talked to him a couple times now about it. It would be a four hour trip one way, but better than flying a bird in. I did my research online about him and previous customers rave about their birds and how happy they were with the quality and health of their birds. I felt assured this was a good safe place to get one when we were ready and had everything we wanted to start out with a much larger bird.

But when I talked to him a couple nights ago, he seemed drunk at the time. He mentioned that he lets his own personal pets fly freely around the neighborhood and they come back when they want to. Now I'm worried that his parrots could carry avian viruses/diseases back to the home flock. And I don't think it's very professional to call potential buyers on the phone while tipsy enough to slur words. What is your take on this? Am I overreacting? Do you think it's very possible that his parrots could infect others in the home with outside bird illnesses?

My only other option is buying a bird from an online source that would have to be airlined here from a few states away. I worry about how safe that would be for the bird and worry something could happen to it in the cargo area of a plane. Has anyone bought online like that? If so how did it turn out?
 

Terry57

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We got my Hawkhead from across the country, and she was flown in. She made it just fine:)
It does seem quite unprofessional to call a potential customer while in that state.
I would definitely be worried about diseases being present if his birds are indeed allowed to be loose with wild birds.
 

JerseyWendy

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.....
But when I talked to him a couple nights ago, he seemed drunk at the time. He mentioned that he lets his own personal pets fly freely around the neighborhood and they come back when they want to. Now I'm worried that his parrots could carry avian viruses/diseases back to the home flock. And I don't think it's very professional to call potential buyers on the phone while tipsy enough to slur words. What is your take on this? Am I overreacting? Do you think it's very possible that his parrots could infect others in the home with outside bird illnesses?

My only other option is buying a bird from an online source that would have to be airlined here from a few states away. I worry about how safe that would be for the bird and worry something could happen to it in the cargo area of a plane. Has anyone bought online like that? If so how did it turn out?

:eek: No, you're not overreacting in the least. I admit, my jaw pretty much hit the ground when I read that part.

I've had several birds shipped to me - never had any issues/problems at all. :)
 

Birdman666

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Well, normally the baby aviary would be quarantined... if not, then I might worry.

Sounds like he's got free flighted and recalled birds, and, apparently, had a little bit too much to drink.
 

Sunset_Chaser

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While he may have been tipsy is it possible that he has a health issue or something that affects his speech? ................Then again, maybe he was a bit schnockered:D
 

miloslave

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I was also thinking that it might be medication maybe? It is difficult as we don't really know what his situation is, but from what you say regarding his reputation, it might be good not to jump to conclusions too quickly. Lol, but your first instinct may also be right!
 

Scott

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All good points to consider! Perhaps you detected an illness or med side-effect, though there are a good many "functioning alcoholics" who seem to reasonably compartmentalize their lives to outsiders. Additional conversations may help validate this concern. I would indeed be wary of disease transmission from free-flighted birds.

Shipping by air can be problematic. Until recently, my biggest caution would be the chain of custody from drop off to the aircraft cargo pit and, on arrival, from the aircraft to the pickup point. There can be exposure to seasonal outside temps beyond a comfortable zone - you are relying on the ethics of overworked employees. Many airlines have firm rules for acceptance and will embargo pet travel during extremes.

Cargo pits on modern jetliners are fully pressurized and temperature controlled similarly to the cabin. On some aircraft the cabin air circulates directly to the pit and is then exhausted outboard. However, many airlines are taking assertive fuel conservation steps to include selecting the lowest air flow rate when able and taxiing to/from the runway with just one of generally two air conditioning systems. The bottom line is the entire aircraft is still pressurized to the same standard but can seem stuffier and slower to regulate to a comfortable temp.

BTW, most aircraft have a cabin altitude of 6000' to 8000' at cruise altitudes. This is why some feel sleepy, alcohol appears "stronger" (it metabolizes slower) and some folks bring supplemental oxygen generators.
 
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Birdman666

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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
To me, it comes down to his quarantine and sterilization procedures with the babies.
 

palmetto941

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I had my Blue Quaker flown into Michigan from Alabama. My first bird.... It was an awesome experience! And Cosmo flew in February last year.... I can vouch for the breeder that I got Cosmo from: Tweety Bird Aviary
4.9508333333333333333333333333 / 5.00 12 Reviews | Review Me

(256) 656-2019

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Tweety Bird Aviary
 
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Minimaker

Minimaker

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I don't think I misread his condition to be honest. We were talking parrot socialization, and he said to take the parrot out with me wherever I went. He said he often took his down to the local bar that was an environment like the show "Cheers" and he took a parrot with him all the time. He said his buddies would kick him out if he didn't take one in with him. He claimed that was how he socialized his younger birds. Given that tidbit and the slurred speech and slightly bawdy over-loud way he was talking, I think I'm pretty much on base with what was going on with him. When I researched him online, I came across a youtube video someone shot of picking up their own bird where his birds were all outside with him and he was talking normally. I know from that how he sounds under normal circumstances.

It's not that he was drunk more than it's a worry about health hazards associated with his birds coming into contact with other wild birds. He said people thought he was a terrible person for letting them fly free because what if something happened to them? He said life was one big risk anyway, might as well live it. His birds were happier that way. No doubt they are, but when I saw the video of them outside with him uncaged and in a large group, I now realize what that means. There were weaned babies mixed in with older birds, and the people were picking up their own bird out of that group. I think this means they all socialize together outside (yes even in this weather, he claims they go during nicer winter days as well because they need fresh air and sunshine) so all birds both pets and for sale birds gather outside in a patio area with an open sky above them. At the time I marveled that they didn't fly away because they didn't appear to be clipped. I thought it was neat they stayed put, but now I know some don't and fly where they want to, when they want to.

I think I had better stick with M & D online, it sounds like they have far more stringent health policies in place to protect the babies from sickness.
 
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Mango121913

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If you are concerned, which you are, and rightfully, so I might add. Why not just ask him if he quarantines his babies from the flock? And if they fly around with wild birds, does he not worry about diseases?
If it was me, I would definitely ask those questions. As for being tipsy, I probably would ask him that too. But, I'm the kind of guy that is more concerned about the baby I would be buying instead of what he thinks of me. Just sayin;).
 

thekarens

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I don't see a problem with taking a bird outside. In fact that's a good thing. It's important to socialize your bird and I would have no concerns with that.

However, just letting them fly around the neighborhood and the rest would concern me.

I've had a bird flown in before with no problems. As long as the weather is good I think that's a good option.
 

RavensGryf

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Wow!! Pretty funny to be honest. :eek:

That M&D sounds like a great place if it's the one I'm thinking about. I'd trust them. I've had several birds shipped across country before, and it was never a problem. It was always by Delta Pets First program. They know what they're doing, and I've done it for years. Good luck getting a great baby :).
 

DoodlesMom

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Whether it was a snoot-full or not the questionable fact is whether or not his "gad-about-town" birds are possibly infected with who knows what.

Personally, I would steer clear, just my paranoid gut reaction.
 
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Minimaker

Minimaker

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Wow!! Pretty funny to be honest. :eek:

That M&D sounds like a great place if it's the one I'm thinking about. I'd trust them. I've had several birds shipped across country before, and it was never a problem. It was always by Delta Pets First program. They know what they're doing, and I've done it for years. Good luck getting a great baby :).

Yeah I think so too. I feel it's too great a health risk. And I do like that you can get your new baby DNA tested at M & D as well. I can get a feather test done right away to see if I have a baby boy or girl. I'd like to know that information anyway. Not to mention they have a 3 year health guarantee there. I'll just get one there instead when we're all set up here and ready for a baby.
 

Bartleby

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I'm legitimately interested in what diseases a parrot can get from wild North American birds? Parasites for sure, but otherwise? Wendy, of Wendy's Parrots, has a similar setup, birds that she just lets out and they fly all around and come home later. Babies are raised in her living room and outdoor aviaries, allowed to mingle and socialize with older/adult parrots.

Most breeder birds have outdoor setups, wild birds could certainly "visit" and mix through the wire. What about people with outdoor aviaries? I mean, I have a crow that visits my birds weekly through the window. I have no doubt when the aviary is up and running he/she will be there visiting through the wire. While I'll do my best to not have them touching, still the bird will be right there. Perhaps some poop may make its way through the mesh when wild birds perch on the roof...which they will undoubtably do.

While the guy's suspected alcoholism and unprofessional behavior certainly is off putting, his birds sound like they are being setup for success. Flock weaned, socialized extensively with humans and varied environments/experiences AND other "older" birds. I'm assuming he's allowing them to fully fledge. Are they abundance weaned as well? M&D is missing a number of these absolutely crucial components in their breeding program. The difference between an abundance weaned, fully fledged, heavily socialized baby (and adult) and one from the large scale more sterile/commercial breeders is truly night and day!
 
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Minimaker

Minimaker

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I'm legitimately interested in what diseases a parrot can get from wild North American birds? Parasites for sure, but otherwise? Wendy, of Wendy's Parrots, has a similar setup, birds that she just lets out and they fly all around and come home later. Babies are raised in her living room and outdoor aviaries, allowed to mingle and socialize with older/adult parrots.

Most breeder birds have outdoor setups, wild birds could certainly "visit" and mix through the wire. What about people with outdoor aviaries? I mean, I have a crow that visits my birds weekly through the window. I have no doubt when the aviary is up and running he/she will be there visiting through the wire. While I'll do my best to not have them touching, still the bird will be right there. Perhaps some poop may make its way through the mesh when wild birds perch on the roof...which they will undoubtably do.

While the guy's suspected alcoholism and unprofessional behavior certainly is off putting, his birds sound like they are being setup for success. Flock weaned, socialized extensively with humans and varied environments/experiences AND other "older" birds. I'm assuming he's allowing them to fully fledge. Are they abundance weaned as well? M&D is missing a number of these absolutely crucial components in their breeding program. The difference between an abundance weaned, fully fledged, heavily socialized baby (and adult) and one from the large scale more sterile/commercial breeders is truly night and day!

I'm one of those "better safe than sorry" people.
I'm a mom, and one thing I learned quickly was that when your kid gets exposed to other sick kids it doesn't simply build up their immune system and make a tough kid, it causes them to get whatever the other kid has 9 times out of 10 and makes them feel like crap. And it never seems to help them avoid getting sick in the future. Not fun for the kid, not fun for the parent dealing with the sick kid. I'm quite sure the same is true of parrots and other birds. I'm going with my gut on this one, sorry ;)

There are so many bird diseases out there, and I highly doubt there isn't something that could be transmitted to parrots even if they aren't normally from the same area. And while socialization is important, that can be done within our own homes in our own way from the start. A just weaned baby is far from over the learning limit and be taught these things by us. As for the outside birds coming into outdoor aviaries, since most people cover them with some sort of roof doesn't that make it less likely contamination would occur? The difference to me is that when I see wild birds of all sizes in the wild, they fight and get into scuffles where nails and beaks get dug into both birds. I live in the country so I see this a lot. I see little birds attacking birds ten times their own size mid-flight. Exchange of disease is far more likely in that case then one where a little bird perches on the fencing used on a covered aviary outside. Call me over cautious if you will, but I'd rather start out with an unsocialized baby free of potential disease and do the socialization myself.

Please be advised there is a curse word in this video, but it shows how easily other birds can attack something even as large as a macaw while flying:

[ame="http://youtu.be/5yRoOyMnzg0"]Krestrel hawk dives at Camelot macaw - YouTube[/ame]
 
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Pinkbirdy

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Ive had two birds flown to me. One a baby and one older [they both did fine ]. It was a great experience. I wouldn't want to miss out on a great breeder.
 

Bartleby

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I'm one of those "better safe than sorry" people.
I'm a mom, and one thing I learned quickly was that when your kid gets exposed to other sick kids it doesn't simply build up their immune system and make a tough kid, it causes them to get whatever the other kid has 9 times out of 10 and makes them feel like crap. And it never seems to help them avoid getting sick in the future. Not fun for the kid, not fun for the parent dealing with the sick kid. I'm quite sure the same is true of parrots and other birds. I'm going with my gut on this one, sorry ;)

There are so many bird diseases out there, and I highly doubt there isn't something that could be transmitted to parrots even if they aren't normally from the same area. And while socialization is important, that can be done within our own homes in our own way from the start. A just weaned baby is far from over the learning limit and be taught these things by us. As for the outside birds coming into outdoor aviaries, since most people cover them with some sort of roof doesn't that make it less likely contamination would occur? The difference to me is that when I see wild birds of all sizes in the wild, they fight and get into scuffles where nails and beaks get dug into both birds. I live in the country so I see this a lot. I see little birds attacking birds ten times their own size mid-flight. Exchange of disease is far more likely in that case then one where a little bird perches on the fencing used on a covered aviary outside. Call me over cautious if you will, but I'd rather start out with an unsocialized baby free of potential disease and do the socialization myself.

Please be advised there is a curse word in this video, but it shows how easily other birds can attack something even as large as a macaw while flying:

Krestrel hawk dives at Camelot macaw - YouTube

If you are one of those "better safe than sorry" people then you will not get a baby parrot that was forced weaned, not fully fledged, not extensively socialized (and yes, once the parrot is weaned, even forced weaned, critical socialization windows have been missed than cannot be regained) and not allowed to interact with older/adult parrots during its development period. There are literally tons of articles available addressing how all of the above is critical to the psychological development and long term mental health of large parrots. No article has said that you can't get a mentally healthy parrot who has been raised with the above practices, but it is harder and the chances are exponentially decreased when large parrots are deprived of these things.

Do I think you should get a bird from this guy? Not if your gut is telling you no. But I do think we, as buyers, should be supporting breeders who are actually setting their babies up for longterm success. Screamers, pluckers, self-mutilators, are not born, doesn't happen in the wild, they are created and while it can be from a crappy adult life I've seen enough in fantastic homes, providing everything they should have, to know that what happens in the absolutely critical fledging stage, when neurons are proliferating to an unprecedented degree, can have a very real detriment on longterm stability. And is more of a lifetime risk than the off chance of catching some vague disease by being outside.

There are studies done on human children, if deprived of basic, biologically hard wired, rearing practices when small infants you cannot make that up. Period. You can certainly get improvement, but they are damaged. They've been recreated with an assortment of animals, including some avians, and the results are the same. Deprivation during a time when they would naturally be establishing lifelong routines, thought & behavior patterns cannot be reversed.

I can point to literally 100s of experienced, longterm, established members of the avian community who free fly their parrots and do not have a single case of disease caught from wild birds. Established, respected breeders (like best of the best) who have birds they allow to fly freely and undirected around their homes....for decades. Once again no diseases. Cockatoo Downs has parrots living free, outside at all times and zero "wild caught" diseases.

Some people with aviaries certainly have covers, but most home aviaries don't, as they are not permanent housing and roofing is expensive and also requires a different support structure. I've never seen a breeder with outdoor setups where at least half the aviaries are not uncovered, including M&D. Many zoos now have walk thru aviaries with a simple game netting strung across poles. They don't have rampant diseases. My zoo has vast flocks of roaming swans, flamingos, peacocks, and other exotic birds that mingle daily with the various wild bird populations. Once again no bird diseases being transmitted. They treat for lice and then parasites occasionally, but those parasites are very likely from the ground and not from bird-to-bird transmission. My vet works at the zoo.

My baby macaw came from a well-known breeder who is doing as many of the "better" rearing techniques as anyone else. The difference between a baby macaw from such a breeder (and the later adult from such a breeder) and babies available from any number of the larger scale "farms" is so stark it is actually a little shocking. When you are used to the "farmed" babies (which is what most people have only experienced) you don't even realize how different those babies should be had they been raised with different, more biologically appropriate techniques. It's like the difference between a puppy-milled dog and one bred and raised by Guide Dogs for the Blind.

TL;DR If you (general you) believe that buying a parrot from a mill is safer, better or wiser, by any measure (psychologically, physically, medically, etc) than getting one from a carefully sourced, conscientious small scale inhome breeder you are sorely mistaken.
 
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RavensGryf

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From what I've heard M&D isn't a bird mill style operation :eek:

Even as disease paranoid as I am, I wouldn't worry about diseases from wild birds. Parasites can be tested for and treated, but typically parrots get the deadly stuff from infected parrot environments and carrier birds (other parrots), not wild non-parrot type birds.

Still, if the breeder didn't strike you as professional or made you raise an eyebrow in any way, then you should by all means go somewhere else. Somewhere where you'd feel comfortable spending your money. Afterall, it's your money, and your bird... That's your personal decision. :)
 

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