New to birds and need help deciding on what is right for me

Ronin94

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First off I apologize if this is in the wrong forum its kind of a lot of things, so I didn't know where to put it.

I just moved out a week ago and just started considering a bird for some company.
I did what little research I could but frankly, it is confusing, and I am getting a lot of conflicting information on different birds. What little I have is from thesprucepets.com , and a lot of that was conflicting. From what I can tell the three types I am looking for more information on are Budgies, Pacific Parrotlets, and Lineolated Parakeets but I am open to other suggestions.

My situation as I said is I just moved out, so things are hectic but will slow down once I start my schooling. I am currently studying to be a gunsmith online, so I will be home a lot to take care of him. Most of my concerns are more long-term as even Budgies (seriously who names birds?) Live 10-15 years with most estimates topping out at 30 for the others.

My number one concern is I have seen estimates as high as 4 hours a day of social time. My concern is not, not being able to provide this but providing it consistently. I know these birds self-injure when stressed and I worry about how sensitive birds are to this.

My second question is how sensitive are birds to the chemicals used in gun cleaners. I am not talking about ingesting it or getting it on them but vapors. Anyone that has used it knows it has a smell, so I am worried about them breathing it in. I ask about this because one of my down the road solutions for social time and simulation is to bring the bird to work. I also have to ask if the Teflon thing is for real and if anyone has seen it happen as it kind of sounds like an exaggerated story to me.

Third, I have seen many places that having a second bird can drastically reduce the need for social time and stimulation but will also drastically reduce the bird's ability to bond with its owner and my goal is to bond well with the bird so I am worried about just how drastic this might be.

Fourth, how long does it take to train a bird give or take? I have yet to see any real estimate on this, so any info is appreciated.

My reasons for picking a bird over a dog or cat is they seem to have more personality, and they are more intelligent. I can get a 2ft square cage for any bird as I live in an apartment and don't really have room for more. I am also not TOO worried about the cost as I have some money left over from my move. If there is any information I left out that would be helpful, please ask me, and I will try to provide it.
 

noodles123

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Jul 11, 2018
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I am very glad that you are taking this seriously :) !!!


Birds have died from as little as a pine-scented air-freshener tag (the hanging kind) in a car. They are VERY sensitive to all chemicals when inhaled (remember the "canary in the coal mine"?). Any cleaning chemicals cannot be used around them safely(unless certified avian safe or something like white vinegar +water). Dangerous products include seemingly benign household chemicals, such as Fabreeze, Windex, Bleach, air-fresheners, carpet cleaner, Lysol etc etc...Paint, solvents, etc are absolutely very bad...My ex used gun-cleaner (pre-bird) and I would bet money it isn't safe...If Kaboom, Lysol etc aren't safe, there is NO WAY it is...And I am not some radical "hippie" lol.



EDIT- http://www.thatguywiththebirds.com/health.html (gun cleaner= listed among other fume-type toxins...now, it isn't WebMD, but considering he mentions it, and I have smelled it, I think that alone is proof.


The Teflon thing is VERY serious and it is hidden in lots of products (blow-dryers, popcorn poppers, rice-cookers, bake-in-a-bag meals, space heaters, self-cleaning ovens, curlers, drip-trays, humidifiers...not to mention the obvious sources like pans and cookie sheets). It can cause a painful death in as little as 5 minutes, and consequences are without cure. Just Google it and you will find veterinary websites and numerous studies (legitimate) backing these claims. There is even a bird warning on the Teflon website, and as everyone on here will attest, it is not an exaggerated story....Birds on separate floors of the same home where Teflon was being used have died in droves. IF you do Google it, know that the temperature for off-gassing is often cited as being somewhere around 500+ degrees, but recent studies (And deaths) mention temperatures in the mid 200s. The dangers of Teflon have been well-documented since the 1970s---



FROM GOOGLE SCHOLAR:


https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Basic-Pet-Bird-Care-Updated-2013.pdf (READ ALL-Teflon information=outdated, but proves my point nonetheless---again, more recent studies show that off-gassing can start as low as 200+ degrees F)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0002889738506828 (and this is fairly outdated- the risk is even worse than what they discuss here).

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/7103205


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10879927 (DEATH FROM HEAT- LAMP COATED IN PTFE)



OTHER:
https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen/teflon-kills-birds#.W5NFF_YnbIU

https://phz8.petinsurance.com/pet-health/pet-toxins/teflon-poisoning-in-birds


Birds move SLOWER than you can even imagine. It could take weeks, months or even years to tame your bird (I couldn't touch mine for 2 full months). If your bird never liking you would cause you to give it up, then my honest answer is that a bird is not for you. Your bird probably will bond with you, but there is no guarantee and 500%, you WILL be bitten at some point.

Birds can be awesome, but to care for them well, you are better off not even comparing them to dogs or cats. I have owned both and a bird (even the smaller ones) ARE WAY MORE WORK...They are very smart and they can be very very stubborn/fickle/emotional. Their love is NOT unconditional, and perhaps most importantly, they are NOT DOMESTICATED. They literally are still wild animals, as opposed to dogs and cats who have been bred in captivity for hundreds of years.


Do you mean 2ft x 2ft or 1ftx 1ft for the cage?

Also---birds can be VERY loud. Apartments can be okay for some smaller birds, but even the parakeet we had as kids could shake the house down...Or at least, the whole main-level.
 
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Ronin94

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I am very glad that you are taking this seriously :) !!!


Birds have died from as little as a pine-scented air-freshener tag (the hanging kind) in a car. They are VERY sensitive to all chemicals when inhaled (remember the "canary in the coal mine"?). Any cleaning chemicals cannot be used around them safely(unless certified avian safe or something like white vinegar +water). Dangerous products include seemingly benign household chemicals, such as Fabreeze, Windex, Bleach, air-fresheners, carpet cleaner, Lysol etc etc...Paint, solvents, etc are absolutely very bad...

The Teflon thing is VERY serious and it is hidden in lots of products (blow-dryers, popcorn poppers, rice-cookers, bake-in-a-bag meals, space heaters, self-cleaning ovens, curlers, drip-trays, humidifiers...not to mention the obvious sources like pans and cookie sheets). It can cause a painful death in as little as 5 minutes, and consequences are without cure. Just Google it and you will find veterinary websites and numerous studies (legitimate) backing these claims. There is even a bird warning on the Teflon website, and as everyone on here will attest, it is not an exaggerated story....Birds on separate floors of the same home where Teflon was being used have died in droves. IF you do Google it, know that the temperature for off-gassing is often cited as being somewhere around 500+ degrees, but recent studies (And deaths) mention temperatures in the mid 200s. The dangers of Teflon have been well-documented since the 1970s---



FROM GOOGLE SCHOLAR:


https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Basic-Pet-Bird-Care-Updated-2013.pdf (READ ALL-Teflon information=outdated, but proves my point nonetheless---again, more recent studies show that off-gassing can start as low as 200+ degrees F)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0002889738506828 (and this is fairly outdated- the risk is even worse than what they discuss here).

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/7103205


OTHER:
https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen/teflon-kills-birds#.W5NFF_YnbIU

https://phz8.petinsurance.com/pet-health/pet-toxins/teflon-poisoning-in-birds


Birds move SLOWER than you can even imagine. It could take weeks, months or even years to tame your bird (I couldn't touch mine for 2 full months). If your bird never liking you would cause you to give it up, then my honest answer is that a bird is not for you. Your bird probably will bond with you, but there is no guarantee and 500%, you WILL be bitten at some point.

Birds can be awesome, but to care for them well, you are better off not even comparing them to dogs or cats. I have owned both and a bird (even the smaller ones) ARE WAY MORE WORK...They are very smart and they can be very very stubborn/fickle/emotional. Their love is NOT unconditional, and perhaps most importantly, they are NOT DOMESTICATED. They literally are still wild animals, as opposed to dogs and cats who have been bread in captivity for hundreds of years.


Do you mean 2ft x 2ft or 1ftx 1ft for the cage?

Also---birds can be VERY loud. Apartments can be okay for some smaller birds, but even the parakeet we had as kids could shake the house down...Or at least, the whole main-level.

Damn Teflon sounds about as dangerous to birds as VX gas to humans. Might need to get copper pans instead. I will say it does sound like to a point sooner or later you will forget a source and to a certain extent its a losing battle you have to deal with. From some of what you describe I half expect to go to the bathroom one day and come out to find my bird has died from the smell. :D

Cleaning I figure I can leave the bird in the hallway for a little while on the days I have to use stronger cleaners then air out the apartment unless even the residue is toxic. This definitely rules out work for me though as some fairly strong chemicals are used. I have to wonder how anything this fragile survived in Australia though. :p

I can spend up to a few months training my bird but I can't spend years on it as eventually I have to start working and I won't have THAT much time. I am going to try to find a few month old bird from a breeder if I can so I think that should help some with both training and afection. If it comes down to it though and i have reached the point i need to start working and the bird is not at least semi trained I will have to find someone more experienced to handle the bird as i can't go so far as to put my entire life on hold for an animal.

As for unconditional love free = worthless in some ways. That's why I don't want a dog or cat.

I meant 2ft x 2ft x 2ft on the cage.
 
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noodles123

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Umbrella Cockatoo- 15? years old..I think?
Stainless steel is the safest metal for birds. As a gunsmith, you would need to be very cautious about what you handle, because metals on bullets and gun-parts etc (such as lead, zinc, copper etc) often leave residue on your hands..even the wipes that they sell to remove the metal residues contain strong/harmful chemicals (and birds like to lick things)...Metal toxicity is another huge issue with birds (from playing with coins, using old cages, playing with jewelry, ingesting paint etc etc).

Although some of this sounds extreme, it really isn't when you consider the unnatural levels of toxins to which we already subject birds (just by living with them)---We have to cook etc...and so the goal is to minimize any superfluous risks---Teflon/ptfe/ptfoa=non-essential (avoidable if you call the company and research products)... There are alternative cleaners etc that ARE safe (it just is hard because I miss the smell of cleaning products, candles, deffusers etc...all unsafe).

That having been said, I can't prevent my bird from inhaling the slight amount of gas released from my stove when I cook, nor can I control the fact that I MUST wear deodorant and shampoo my hair...and I can't eliminate air pollution, or the smell of exhaust from other vehicles (but I can and will control the things within my power). I am more attached to my bird than I ever would have imagined, and so the guilt of knowing I caused her death would be unbearable. That is the other thing about having long-living pets.

Basically, "EVERYTHING" KILLS PARROTS...It sucks! Then again, I LOVE my bird and I can't imagine getting rid of her. You will have to drastically change the way you live and think in order to maximize your bird's life-expectancy and quality of life. If nothing else, vet bills for birds are PAINFULLY EXPENSIVE.

If you want a cheaper option for pots and pans- look for Revere-ware at thrift stores. That is what I replaced all of my Teflon with and I did it for under $20.

In terms of cleaning, I think your hallway plan is sketchy (sorry). I felt the same way originally, but it is not realistic. For instance, carpet cleaner, even 24 hours later can harm birds... (also, bleach in certain concentrations does leave a residue, although there is some controversy about how and if it breaks down).

To give you an example of the complicated life a bird-owner, I recently had to return a rental car (post-phone call, per vet recommendation) when I picked it up and it smelled like a banana explosion. I "aired it out", but there was still a smell 3 hours later. It is VERY difficult to explain these things to people who aren't "bird people" and even then, Hertz was not too keen on breaking company policy to give me an "un-freshened" car....I had to beg and pay for a giant upgrade that just happened to be sitting on the lot (un-cleaned lol).

These are the things you never even consider before having a bird (yeah, I didn't like the smell, but it wouldn't have KILLED me). I also don't use hairspray or perfume anymore unless I am outside of my house (and when I come home, I now have to wash my face, because my bird tries to preen me, and licks my makeup!) She also is always messing with my hair (any product is bad, as she runs it through her beak).

Back to the hallway situation:

if you have an open-air hallway, people will smoke in it and temperatures will change (drafts= bad for birds, as is smoke etc). Plus, your bird may scream for you and then your neighbors will be mad....Not to mention the possibility of other dangers. If your hallway is indoors (still in your building), then the chemicals are (potentially) near enough to cause harm AND they will not dissipate quickly enough for you to bring your bird back in within a short period of time. If you have very hot temps or very cold ones in your region, you won't even be able to attempt to air your place out and even if you did, it would be a big gamble.

In terms of Teflon, you will have to hope that your neighbors aren't overheating things in an apartment (above/below you)--you aren't the only person to have or consider having a bird in an apartment, but it has its own risks. For general air-safety (mold etc) I would invest in a NON-IONIZING/NON-OZONE PRODUCING hepa air filter. I use a cheaper brand- VEVA, and I am happy with it so far.

Germ Tip: If you want germ-killing ability (aside from bleach which is not safe or vinegar), there is a product called F10 SC (the yellow kind, not the green) which is avian safe when diluted appropriately and allowed to dry (no rinse needed and no fume issues). It kills a lot of the same stuff as bleach (MRSA, tough viruses, bacteria, etc--assuming the proper concentration and soak time).
 
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Ronin94

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I don't have to worry about hair makeup etc. An advantage of being a dude. I will say that if you have ever used lead solvent, you would know you wash your hands, and they STILL smell a little. There are a small number of chemicals used in gunsmithing, mostly lead and carbon solvents as well as oil. I really don't know if I can solve that issue, but I am going to put it aside for the moment.


The apartment I am currently in has baseboard heating, and a wall mounted AC, so. Air flow between apartments is unlikely


Other things like pans and cleaners aren't that big a deal, but I have to ask why on earth are birds this sensitive? If you compare a chuwawa with a larger patriot why aren't similar sized dogs having the same issues? You would think someone would make part of gas masks or scuba systems with as sensitive as they are.
 

ChristaNL

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Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
LOL@ gasmasks for parrots -> that made a fun picture in my head :)


The difference between birds and the rest is that they have this airsack-construction going on as wel al lungs -> they need a LOT of oxygen to keep those flightmuscles fuelled and working.
So that makes them verry efficient in taking air but also extra vulnerable to airborne shizzles.


I am *so* impressed you are taking the time to really look into this!


My first impusle would be: if you are messing about with chemicals -> do not get a bird in the mix.
Of course: there are still parrots around that have survived 40 years of enduring cigarsmoke, open fires, candles and oillamps -> but these are exceptions rather than the rule.
It like: some people can actually survive being submerged for 3 minutes (but most of us wont be that lucky).
Anyway-> that is why there a so many conflicting stories about them- for every rule ....


(totally unrelated: wow gunsmithing, it sounds like fun!)


If you ever decide to have a chemicalfree-ish home (have you own workshop& showers somewhere else) - adopt an older bird??
 
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Caitnah

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I am in a similar situation as I live in a townhouse and have neighbors. For that reason I settled on a Green Cheek Conure...and very happy with the decision. My walls are VERY thin and my guy is not loud at all. He can get a little noisy at times as when he is happily playing with his favorite toy (bells). But he is perfect for apartment living. And I would say that almost every GCC owner would agree.
But, if you consider this type, the size cage you mentioned is too small. And this is where conflicting reports come in. For every opinion you get on a particular topic, you will get an opposite opinion. After you load it up with toys and perches, that large cage gets small in a hurry.

As far as the chemicals, the solvents you use is a concern. Especially since you live in a one floor apartment. You MIGHT be able to use them in a separate room with the door closed, windows open, fans on, etc. BUT even then, the odors could permeate through the walls and vents causing harm.

Now, for some good news. As mentioned above, some birds have survived being around all kinds of chemicals with seemingly no problems. For YEARS, and many years ago, there has been birds living in houses where people did not have the knowledge they have today. They purchased a bird and used all kinds of chemicals in the house where the bird was subjected to them for years...and survived. Teflon was used close by, cleaning chemicals were used, also, close by and apparently no problems.
However, it is quite possible, that it could have shortened their life span. Instead of a twenty year life span, they only survived ten.

Personally, considering the chemicals you will be using, and living in a one floor apartment, I wouldn't get a bird at this time.
 
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Ronin94

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I am in a similar situation as I live in a townhouse and have neighbors. For that reason I settled on a Green Cheek Conure...and very happy with the decision. My walls are VERY thin and my guy is not loud at all. He can get a little noisy at times as when he is happily playing with his favorite toy (bells). But he is perfect for apartment living. And I would say that almost every GCC owner would agree.
But, if you consider this type, the size cage you mentioned is too small. And this is where conflicting reports come in. For every opinion you get on a particular topic, you will get an opposite opinion. After you load it up with toys and perches, that large cage gets small in a hurry.

As far as the chemicals, the solvents you use is a concern. Especially since you live in a one floor apartment. You MIGHT be able to use them in a separate room with the door closed, windows open, fans on, etc. BUT even then, the odors could permeate through the walls and vents causing harm.

Now, for some good news. As mentioned above, some birds have survived being around all kinds of chemicals with seemingly no problems. For YEARS, and many years ago, there has been birds living in houses where people did not have the knowledge they have today. They purchased a bird and used all kinds of chemicals in the house where the bird was subjected to them for years...and survived. Teflon was used close by, cleaning chemicals were used, also, close by and apparently no problems.
However, it is quite possible, that it could have shortened their life span. Instead of a twenty year life span, they only survived ten.

Personally, considering the chemicals you will be using, and living in a one floor apartment, I wouldn't get a bird at this time.


I might be able to get an extra foot on one side of the cage but 2x3x2 is likely as big as i can go. When I say i just moved I mean I JUST moved. I don't even have half my furniture yet so I am kind of guessing. I might end up having more or less space than I have said I don't know. One thing I can do to get more space with toys is have fewer at a time but replace more frequently to keep him from getting bored.


I am not currently doing hands on work and will likely move again before I do so the chemical situation is not currently an issue. I mentioned it as it will be an issue down the road and I apologize for any confusion.


I will go so far as to say simply due to my line of work there will be no way to be 100% clean about chemicals but I can do most of the rest so any bird I get will have an above average lifespan but likely not the maximum possible one.
 

noodles123

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Umbrella Cockatoo- 15? years old..I think?
If you had a garage where you could work (While perhaps wearing gloves) you could solve some of those problems.

I know a lot of this sounds extreme (especially when small parrots are so cheap) but it is true. Parakeets are actually WAY smarter than many people know. Poor birds...
At least big birds cost a lot, so people tend to be more careful with them.
I really think you are awesome for asking questions and THINKING before buying. Lots of people wouldn't...We had a parakeet growing up, and while she wasn't abused or anything, she was certainly not a good fit for my young sister (who basically treated her like a hamster and lost interest quickly)...Looking back, it makes me cringe. My family was "careless" (out of ignorance--no internet at the time) and I am sure the bird was bored out of her mind!


Just remember, you have a choice, but they do not.
 
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Ronin94

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If you had a garage where you could work (While perhaps wearing gloves) you could solve some of those problems.

I know a lot of this sounds extreme (especially when small parrots are so cheap) but it is true. Parakeets are actually WAY smarter than many people know. Poor birds...
At least big birds cost a lot, so people tend to be more careful with them.
I really think you are awesome for asking questions and THINKING before buying. Lots of people wouldn't...We had a parakeet growing up, and while she wasn't abused or anything, she was certainly not a good fit for my young sister (who basically treated her like a hamster and lost interest quickly)...Looking back, it makes me cringe. My family was "careless" (out of ignorance--no internet at the time) and I am sure the bird was bored out of her mind!


Just remember, you have a choice, but they do not.


A garage is a viable option in the future as I am only staying at this place for 6 months and worst case scenario before that i can do some work at my parents place. My next place should hopefully be long term and I have maybe 2 or 3 moves left in my life so I won't be moving around to much with a bird.


I still kind of need to know how accurate the 4 hours of daily social time is as if they can't go without that much ocasonaly it is kind of a deal breaker. I also kind of need to know how much having a second bird will reduce there ability to bond as from some of what i am hearing it might not be as bad as I originally thought.
 

Laurasea

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You really do have to spend an average of four or more hours daily. These are increadably intelligent and highly social creatures. They are comparable to primates, it 2-4 year old children. If you don't spend enough time with your parrot you will have a screaming biting parrot who will develop mental issues like depression and self mutilation, and feather picking. But the time you spend with them can include riding around on your shoulder while you fo chores, sitting on a play stand next to you , eating your meals together really important in my opinion thry can have their own plate to eat off or s stand with bowls that you set on the table, some birds like to shower with you. If you do get a young bird an aviator flight harness and follow the train guidance works much easier training when young, then you can take your bird with you. You want to go st it that you are including the bird in ad much as everything you do so possible! Sometimes too can be better, but doesn't replace time with you. One of the truely wonderful things about parrots are they are there own unique self and make decisions for themselves, but they also make life long bonds, they don't divorce, they have complex social structures and friendship and rivals. They must have extensive social interaction. It's do wonderful that you are a thinker, and planner, and have the foresight to have these conversations now!!!! Welcome!
 

noodles123

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Umbrella Cockatoo- 15? years old..I think?
It really depends on the type of bird, what they are already used to, the routine you set, the presence (or lack-thereof, of other birds), current age, past experiences and the quality of the interaction. As stated previously, sleep is very important for birds and they tend to have a pretty decent internal clock (based on the amount of sleep they need). When I keep my bird up too late, she becomes a lot more irritable/aggressive...The next day, she is always LOUD and anxious/obnoxious (and fickle).
Assuming your future bird is getting enough sleep, then if you really think you can do 4 hours a day (minimum), than that will work for many (but not all) birds. I have an Umbrella Cockatoo and 4 is probably her bare minimum (she isn't nearly as happy on these days and she is more prone to be a "pain"- I don't blame her....I would be too-on the weekends, she gets way more time, but during the week, probably around 5 hours daily ---and I FEEL SO GUILTY FOR NOT GIVING HER MORE).
Lately, I have to put her to bed at 5 so that she can wake up at 5 and spend time with me before work (+after work). I will say, our new routine confuses her, as it is not light out when she first wakes up, so she gets sort of anxious when the sun does come out...According to all reports (multiple vets) she is VERY well-adjusted, but on a typical day, I am ready for her to go to bed when she does because she (while independent compared to many) still demands a lot of my time....The point is, in order to maintain a relationship with a "wild" animal, you have to be fairly consistent and work on their terms (to some extent, but not to the point of over-indulging). Many birds don't count "interaction" as legitimate if you are just in the same room.
 
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