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Old 12-13-2018, 11:03 AM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

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You are definitely dealing with a situation in which wing clips are safer all around. I think a fecal exam and wet mount fecal exam, a fecal gram stain, and a fecal culture are a good place to start, plus a CBC chemistry. Dang she must have been in a bad situation before! Glad you have her now , thank you again for rescuing her! In my opion her weight loss is not from the wing clip, it takes a good amount of time to lose muscle mass, and frankly usually you get a fat bird when not flying. Some exotic vets are good, and sometimes it's worth the drive to find an avain specialist. Having had tape worms is concerning, and I mentioned in an earlier post can be hard to get rid of them, there us a lot of resistance to worming medication these days. Also tapeworms can make cysts in the body, so even an x-ray isn't out of the question. Sorry you have all this going on! Especially at this time if the year.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:18 PM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Okay, so I think that Drontal is the brand-name for Praziquental (spelling?) if I remember correctly, which is commonly used to treat Tapeworms in dogs and cats, but I've not ever heard of it used to treat birds, not ever...The reason that CAV's don't typically prescribe any of the Anti-Parasitics in that family of drugs is because of their extreme effects on the liver, and captive birds commonly have very sensitive livers/liver issues due to their diets. Gastrointestinal side-effects from Praziquental are extremely high in dogs and cats, it's pretty-much expected that they are going to have diarrhea, upset stomach, vomiting, anorexia, etc. So I'd imagine that the same is going to happen in birds, probably more-so.

***The problem with trying to figure out what is going on with your Gray right now is because there are so many different things going on with her right now that could be causing this issue...While it was obvious that she had Tapeworms if you actually brought a sample-worm in with you, I have to tell you that I am EXTREMELY SHOCKED that your Exotics Vet did not take a Fecal sample and at the very least make a slide of it, stain it, and look at it under their microscope right there in the office on the spot, and also didn't send a Fecal sample out to the lab they use to be plated for a culture/sensitivity. That makes no sense at all to me; the bird obviously had an active Tapeworm infection, which is extremely uncommon in parrots, so the likelihood that she also has other Parasitic Infestations, Bacterial and/or Fungal/yeast Infections, Protozoan Infections, an incorrect normal-flora load throughout her GI Tract,
etc. is extremely high, especially in the environment she was living in, which is no-doubt the reason she had a Tapeworm infestation (if they were bad enough to be visibly crawling/hanging out of her Vent/Cloaca then this was BAD).
So she needs a complete Fecal culture/sensitivity sent out, and simple, basic in-office microscopy/gram-staining done on a fresh Fecal Culture. The likelihood that she still has one or more GI infections/infestations is extremely high, and since her diet was likely horrible in that home as well, my guess is that she's probably lacking in healthy GI Bacteria, which usually results in them having Fungal/yeast GI infections...Plus the risk of a Bacterial infection is also huge in that situation...

***Did they do a repeat Fecal after she finished the last round of Drontal to make sure that her GI Tract is 100% free of Tapeworms/eggs? This is standard-practice, so I'm hoping she was cleared through a follow-up Fecal for at least the Tapeworms...If she did not have a follow-up Fecal after finishing both rounds of the Drontal, then she needs to have this done ASAP with a fresh Fecal Sample, and she absolutely should have a full culture/sensitivity sent-out and at the very least microscopy/Gram-Staining done on the fresh Fecal Sample at the same time to rule-out other, non-related infections/infestations. If she simply finished the Drontal rounds and that was it, that's not good enough in this situation...I'd actually be finding the closest Certified Avian Vet or Avian Specialist Vet to your home, which we can help you with, because of the situation she came from and the issues you're having, along with the rare Tapeworm infestation she had...No offense towards "Exotic's Vets", but in the US any General dog/cat vet can call themselves an "Exotics Vet", it means absolutely nothing but they went to Vet School, got their state license, and are "willing to see/treat" animals other than dogs and cats...They have no extra or specially concentrated education or training in birds or any other types of animals, and with birds they are so different than mammals that seeing a CAV is often the difference between life and death of the bird...And to be honest with you, even if this Vet had been a CAV, the fact that they didn't even run a basic Fecal culture/microscopy when the bird had an active Tapeworm infestation is really, really not a good sign.

***So, her eating/weight-loss issues could be because she still has Tapeworms/eggs, it could be that her GI Tract is upset/irritated from the Praziquental or the Praziquental could have caused a liver issue, or it might not be related to anything physical at all, but rather it's related to a weaning/fledging issue...There's really no way to know without a full Fecal work-up to test for Tapeworms, other parasites, bacterial and/or fungal/yeast infections, etc. I'd also highly recommend routine blood-work, it's almost a must, because that is going to show you whether she is suffering from an infection, anemia, nutritional deficiencies, metabolic issues, kidney function, and most importantly right now would be liver function...

I definitely would not clip her again right now, I'd let her wings fully grow back in so that she is again able to fly, and I'd then make certain that she can actually fly with full directional control, but more importantly you need to figure out if her behaviors/personality/eating habits/weight etc. show noticeable positive change...That is going to tell you quite a bit about how clipping her wings at such a young age has effected her psychological/neurological/behavioral development and maturity, and whether or not you're going to have any lasting issues...

Again, I have always believed that the choice of whether or not to clip a bird's wings was entirely up to their owner, and unless the owner is clipping their wings for a very cruel or selfish reason then there's no reason to be critical of the bird's owner for doing so, as there are several reasons why people keep their bird's wings clipped, some are safety reasons or other important and necessary reasons...Now at the same time, I do fully believe that if there is any way that it's possible to be able to keep your bird fully-flighted then you should do it at all costs, because a bird being able to fully fly is very much the same as us being able to simply walk...And clipping their wings can cause some birds a large amount of stress, distress, anxiety, etc. Parrots are just like people, especially as intelligent a parrot as a CAG. They have the intelligence of a 4 year-old human child, and the ability to use logic and reason. So huge changes like clipping their wings can cause huge psychological and neurological issues; that being said, clipping ANY BIRD'S WINGS before they fully fledge/fully wean or before they learn to fully fly properly can and usually does cause at least some extent of neurological and behavioral trouble...Though in this case there is really no way to know what is going on until all possible and probably physical health issues are properly ruled-out...
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:16 AM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Quote: Originally Posted by EllenD View Post
Okay, so I think that Drontal is the brand-name for Praziquental (spelling?) if I remember correctly, which is commonly used to treat Tapeworms in dogs and cats, but I've not ever heard of it used to treat birds, not ever...The reason that CAV's don't typically prescribe any of the Anti-Parasitics in that family of drugs is because of their extreme effects on the liver, and captive birds commonly have very sensitive livers/liver issues due to their diets. Gastrointestinal side-effects from Praziquental are extremely high in dogs and cats, it's pretty-much expected that they are going to have diarrhea, upset stomach, vomiting, anorexia, etc. So I'd imagine that the same is going to happen in birds, probably more-so.

***The problem with trying to figure out what is going on with your Gray right now is because there are so many different things going on with her right now that could be causing this issue...While it was obvious that she had Tapeworms if you actually brought a sample-worm in with you, I have to tell you that I am EXTREMELY SHOCKED that your Exotics Vet did not take a Fecal sample and at the very least make a slide of it, stain it, and look at it under their microscope right there in the office on the spot, and also didn't send a Fecal sample out to the lab they use to be plated for a culture/sensitivity. That makes no sense at all to me; the bird obviously had an active Tapeworm infection, which is extremely uncommon in parrots, so the likelihood that she also has other Parasitic Infestations, Bacterial and/or Fungal/yeast Infections, Protozoan Infections, an incorrect normal-flora load throughout her GI Tract,
etc. is extremely high, especially in the environment she was living in, which is no-doubt the reason she had a Tapeworm infestation (if they were bad enough to be visibly crawling/hanging out of her Vent/Cloaca then this was BAD).
So she needs a complete Fecal culture/sensitivity sent out, and simple, basic in-office microscopy/gram-staining done on a fresh Fecal Culture. The likelihood that she still has one or more GI infections/infestations is extremely high, and since her diet was likely horrible in that home as well, my guess is that she's probably lacking in healthy GI Bacteria, which usually results in them having Fungal/yeast GI infections...Plus the risk of a Bacterial infection is also huge in that situation...

***Did they do a repeat Fecal after she finished the last round of Drontal to make sure that her GI Tract is 100% free of Tapeworms/eggs? This is standard-practice, so I'm hoping she was cleared through a follow-up Fecal for at least the Tapeworms...If she did not have a follow-up Fecal after finishing both rounds of the Drontal, then she needs to have this done ASAP with a fresh Fecal Sample, and she absolutely should have a full culture/sensitivity sent-out and at the very least microscopy/Gram-Staining done on the fresh Fecal Sample at the same time to rule-out other, non-related infections/infestations. If she simply finished the Drontal rounds and that was it, that's not good enough in this situation...I'd actually be finding the closest Certified Avian Vet or Avian Specialist Vet to your home, which we can help you with, because of the situation she came from and the issues you're having, along with the rare Tapeworm infestation she had...No offense towards "Exotic's Vets", but in the US any General dog/cat vet can call themselves an "Exotics Vet", it means absolutely nothing but they went to Vet School, got their state license, and are "willing to see/treat" animals other than dogs and cats...They have no extra or specially concentrated education or training in birds or any other types of animals, and with birds they are so different than mammals that seeing a CAV is often the difference between life and death of the bird...And to be honest with you, even if this Vet had been a CAV, the fact that they didn't even run a basic Fecal culture/microscopy when the bird had an active Tapeworm infestation is really, really not a good sign.

***So, her eating/weight-loss issues could be because she still has Tapeworms/eggs, it could be that her GI Tract is upset/irritated from the Praziquental or the Praziquental could have caused a liver issue, or it might not be related to anything physical at all, but rather it's related to a weaning/fledging issue...There's really no way to know without a full Fecal work-up to test for Tapeworms, other parasites, bacterial and/or fungal/yeast infections, etc. I'd also highly recommend routine blood-work, it's almost a must, because that is going to show you whether she is suffering from an infection, anemia, nutritional deficiencies, metabolic issues, kidney function, and most importantly right now would be liver function...

I definitely would not clip her again right now, I'd let her wings fully grow back in so that she is again able to fly, and I'd then make certain that she can actually fly with full directional control, but more importantly you need to figure out if her behaviors/personality/eating habits/weight etc. show noticeable positive change...That is going to tell you quite a bit about how clipping her wings at such a young age has effected her psychological/neurological/behavioral development and maturity, and whether or not you're going to have any lasting issues...

Again, I have always believed that the choice of whether or not to clip a bird's wings was entirely up to their owner, and unless the owner is clipping their wings for a very cruel or selfish reason then there's no reason to be critical of the bird's owner for doing so, as there are several reasons why people keep their bird's wings clipped, some are safety reasons or other important and necessary reasons...Now at the same time, I do fully believe that if there is any way that it's possible to be able to keep your bird fully-flighted then you should do it at all costs, because a bird being able to fully fly is very much the same as us being able to simply walk...And clipping their wings can cause some birds a large amount of stress, distress, anxiety, etc. Parrots are just like people, especially as intelligent a parrot as a CAG. They have the intelligence of a 4 year-old human child, and the ability to use logic and reason. So huge changes like clipping their wings can cause huge psychological and neurological issues; that being said, clipping ANY BIRD'S WINGS before they fully fledge/fully wean or before they learn to fully fly properly can and usually does cause at least some extent of neurological and behavioral trouble...Though in this case there is really no way to know what is going on until all possible and probably physical health issues are properly ruled-out...

Wow this was the most thorough and helpful thing. Thank you so much. Yes they gave her the two doeses and send us on our way. The last one said they don't even like to do gram stains anymore. I could use help in finding one as I see exotics but no dedicated avian vet. These are the three she has seen so far:

https://www.oradell.com/boren


Next:
Franklin lakes animal hospital
Dr. Kristin Onesios
I joined the Franklin Lakes Animal Hospital in May of 2010 after working in Hoboken for 3 years. I had always hoped to return to FLAH after spending multiple summers and college breaks working here as a receptionist and veterinary assistant. I grew up a few towns over in Allendale. For undergraduate studies, I went to Cook College at Rutgers University where I received a degree in Animal Science. I pursued my veterinary degree at Tufts University. While there I developed more insight into caring for not only cats and dogs, but also birds, reptiles, pocket pets and wildlife.
While not at work, I enjoy spending time with my husband, Nick and my 2 kids, Claire and James. We currently share our house with 2 cuddly cats, Fritz and Amelia.


New Rutherforld Bird Cat and Dog:

Jacquelyn Arns, DVM
Associate Veterinarian
Dr. Arns is originally from Sussex County NJ, but then spent several years in upstate NY and CT. She graduated from Cornell's College of Veterinary Medicine in 1997, and started out working on horses. She quickly moved to small animal practice. She has worked in the NJ/NY metro area since 2000, first in White Plains NY then Crestkill NJ, and now in Rutherford NJ. Dr. Arns enjoys seeing pets of many species including birds, reptiles, and small mammals such as, rabbits and guinea pigs, as well as dogs and cats.

Away from the office she spends time with her husband David and their cats Cody, Skylar, and AJ. She enjoys running, showing model horses, and seeing Weird Al Yankovic in concert (she met her husband at a weird Al show!)
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Old 12-17-2018, 01:29 PM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Yeah, you definitely need to find an Avian Vet; I can't believe they said that they don't like running gram-stains anymore...what the hell do they do them, lol...

So you're obviously in NJ, but what city do live in/near? I'm assuming you're not far from NYC based on the Rutherford and the Franklin Lakes clinics...Let me take a look and see what pops up in northern NJ
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Old 12-17-2018, 01:36 PM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Actually, without even looking I know of one of the best Avian Vets in the country, board certified and very, very experienced that is in Parsippany, NJ...His name is Dr. Wolf, I think his first name is Todd...I only know about him because he is a very renowned Avian Surgeon as well, and a friend of mine took her Macaw their for orthopedic surgery, and he was phenomenal...He works at "The Companion and Avian/Exotic Animal Hospital" in Parsippany...That's one good option...I'll look for more...
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Quote: Originally Posted by EllenD View Post
Actually, without even looking I know of one of the best Avian Vets in the country, board certified and very, very experienced that is in Parsippany, NJ...His name is Dr. Wolf, I think his first name is Todd...I only know about him because he is a very renowned Avian Surgeon as well, and a friend of mine took her Macaw their for orthopedic surgery, and he was phenomenal...He works at "The Companion and Avian/Exotic Animal Hospital" in Parsippany...That's one good option...I'll look for more...
Thanks so much that's close enough
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Old 12-19-2018, 09:27 AM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

Quote: Originally Posted by EllenD View Post
Actually, without even looking I know of one of the best Avian Vets in the country, board certified and very, very experienced that is in Parsippany, NJ...His name is Dr. Wolf, I think his first name is Todd...I only know about him because he is a very renowned Avian Surgeon as well, and a friend of mine took her Macaw their for orthopedic surgery, and he was phenomenal...He works at "The Companion and Avian/Exotic Animal Hospital" in Parsippany...That's one good option...I'll look for more...
One more thing. She will take formula if I offer it to her. But at almost 5 months is that a bad thing to offer her?
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:07 PM
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Re: Losing Weight After Wing Clipping

LOL, I think this will make some people angry with me..but why not?

A CAG will hang around with its parentbirds till at least one year old, and since yours had a rough start with all the weightloss and parasites I do not think it will immediately land you with an obese bird.

Everything in moderation etc. - but if she likes a bit of a snack in the shape of formula- why not, till 2 years old she still is a growing child ...

and speaking of children: congrats on growing your own.
(arriving anytime soon? It would be great if you have your birdsissues all sorted out before that, parasites and newborns are not the best combination ever. Not saying that to alarm you- if it were dramatic the human race would no longer exist, we survived living with parasites for millenia- it just a thingy about timemanagement and exhausting new arrivals.)
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