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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 10:38 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
So my suggestion is that if we have a greater patience threshold before we shut off communication with such members, it will be good for the welfare of the bird in his custody.
So instead of being tolerant towards 10 rude messages, we could increase it to 25 or 50 after which we realise we are hitting a wall and close communication.

I hope that made sense. Again I want to emphasise the compassion is not for the human being but for the hapless bird, which in current circumstances is probably best off with this person only.

Our patience threshold included three reports by senior members urging closure, and significant dialog amongst moderators. For more perspective and context, Rhomboid definitively closed the door to advice re surviving Alexandrine.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rhomboid View Post
I don't need any suggestions regarding Alex, he is happy with me.
Rhomboid is welcome to create a new discussion thread without prejudice to the closure. Whether the hapless bird is better off with this person is conjecture. We don't know if the level of remorse is sufficient to prevent another release. Given the likelihood of further angst, the defensive posture would have likely hardened.

As a long term member, surely you understand the enormous compassion our members have for birds and their keepers/companions. That is our raison d'etre.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 11:00 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
Just being the devil's advocate, but supposing the OP has no clue there was anything wrong with his attitude?

What Cardinal is trying to point out is that the entire *culture* in some countries simply takes what we see as cruelty for granted.
In the interest of poor birds that may be subject to awful cruelty, Cardinal and I are only asking that we try a different tack and recognise different cultures. Help might reach those birds if we just tried a little harder.

I won't beat a dead horse any longer over this, but the moral high ground can be a lonely place indeed.
Rhomboid clearly understood the gravity of release and expressed a bit of remorse:

Quote: Originally Posted by Rhomboid View Post
yeah, he is gone and still gives me sleepless nights.
Cruelty to animals knows no borders and holds quarter in every nation. It is rife in the U.S. though we make steady strides. Leading by example and sharing our passion within these forums has proven helpful. While we celebrate the diversity of our membership, we have at times made judgments based on actions, not locale.

Moral high ground is relativistic and has been used as cudgel for millennia.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 11:16 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

If Rhomboid had actually been asking for help in trying to recapture his bird, I would have agreed with leaving his thread open. However, since he had no intention on going back to even look for his bird, it seemed he wanted absolution for his actions rather than help.

He was not asking for help with cage sizes, or food, or anything to make his remaining bird's life better. If he had been, I would agree that this is where compassion and help are required. He also made it clear that he wasn't asking for help with his Alex. If he did choose to ask for help for his Alex, then a new thread would be the most helpful without the baggage of his first thread.

The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 11:47 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Terry57 View Post
The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.
While I agree with that belief, I can't express how many times I have been asked:
Quote:
It's a bird - shouldn't it be flying free with other birds? Isn't it cruel to cage them and keep them in houses?
It is a common belief in certain countries that birds are almost a symbol of freedom, of soaring where only our spirits can go, of dreams and well-wishes. And as a result, in certain countries, there's a belief that birds are better off free, flying in the skies with other birds, not brought down to our human level.

Given the choice between that and the life that most songbirds in Chinese tradition live (and as a result, many parrots live), I do wonder what to say.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 12:19 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by charmedbyekkie View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Terry57 View Post
The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.
While I agree with that belief, I can't express how many times I have been asked:
Quote:
It's a bird - shouldn't it be flying free with other birds? Isn't it cruel to cage them and keep them in houses?
It is a common belief in certain countries that birds are almost a symbol of freedom, of soaring where only our spirits can go, of dreams and well-wishes. And as a result, in certain countries, there's a belief that birds are better off free, flying in the skies with other birds, not brought down to our human level.

Given the choice between that and the life that most songbirds in Chinese tradition live (and as a result, many parrots live), I do wonder what to say.
If he had released his bird because he felt that keeping it in a cage was wrong,this may have been a different discussion with more nuanced replies. However, he released him because of irritation at the noises the IRN was making. Comparing this particular situation to people being opposed to birds being caged or to how songbirds are kept in China confuses me. People commented on the actual situation, which is that he released a domesticated bird because of his irritation, and he never mentioned any ethical beliefs he may have had.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 05:54 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

I will leave this link here and have nothing more to say on this matter:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/pol...w/47315094.cms

Quote:
NEW DELHI: Birds have the fundamental right to "live with dignity" and fly in the sky without being kept in cages or subjected to cruelty, Delhi High Court has said while holding that running their trade was a "violation of their rights".

Justice Manmohan Singh expressed anguish that instead of being allowed to fly free, they were "exported illegally to foreign countries without availability of proper food, water or medical aid".

"I am clear in mind that all the birds have fundamental rights to fly in the sky and all human beings have no right to keep them in small cages for the purposes of their business or otherwise," the judge said.

The high court issued notice to Delhi Police as well as the bird owner, Md Mohazzim, and sought their responses by May 28.

The high court made the observations and issued the orders while staying the direction of a trial court which had allowed some birds to be released to the same person from whom they were rescued on his plea.

The trial court order was stayed on a plea by NGO People for Animals, which had challenged the release of birds into custody of owners without hearing the NGO which had freed the birds.


The NGO, in its plea filed through advocate S D Windlesh, has alleged that the trial court released the birds into Mohazzim's custody despite arriving at a finding that he was not the owner of the birds.

Granting relief to the NGO, the high court said, "...This court is of the view that running the trade of birds is in violation of the rights of the birds. They deserve sympathy. Nobody is caring as to whether they have been inflicted cruelty or not despite a settled law that birds have a fundamental right to fly and cannot be caged and will have to be set free in the sky.

"Birds have fundamental rights including the right to live with dignity and they cannot be subjected to cruelty by anyone including claim made by the respondent (Mohazzim)."
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2020, 07:30 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

The good Justice’s ruling in this case is absolutely correct! There are more than enough captive bred parrots and other species available to satisfy the demand of the pet trade without the need to continue taking more from the wild. When was the last time anyone saw a wolf being taken from it’s native habitat because someone wanted a pet canine?

Wild caught birds are often subjected to cruelty and their lives endangered in the way they’re housed and transported, to say nothing of how such illegal practices endanger the very survival of those species altogether. Yet the trade does continue, often on the back of trade in illegal narcotics or weapons, causing immeasurable suffering to all involved. We in Australia well remember in our not too distant past seeing deeply distressing film footage of various native parrot species being jammed into airless suitcases for illegal export through our airports, and many of them being dead by the time they were found by customs officers. Although we don’t see it here so much anymore it still continues in many parts of the world and is every bit as cruel. And unnecessary. The judge here has taken one small step in trying to stamp out disgusting illegal trafficking, yet I cannot help but wonder what was the fate of the birds who were caught up in this.

I've said before that I think the day is coming where humans will no longer be permitted to keep pets of any species purely for their own amusement, but we cannot in good conscience simply turn a domesticated animal loose and hope that it can fend for itself. Our companion birds are not as far removed from their wild ancestors, that is very true. But a bird who has spent it’s life in captivity should not be released into the wild where it will most likely starve or be killed by any number of predators, and certainly not because it’s owner acted on a momentary impulse which he now regrets, such as is the case with our original OP. The wider debate about whether any of us should be keeping any bird from experiencing the full richness of the life that it has evolved over millions of years for, with all of it’s splendour and potential danger, is however a very valid one, and one which should continue here on this forum and elsewhere for a long time to come.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:53 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Let me just boil things back down to their basics, as the complexities of cultural perspectives seem to have muddied the waters on something that is far more basic and simple than this conversation would suggest.

The original premise of this thread was to contest the mod decision of closing the thread in question, yes? End of the day, it all boils down to that. Now, many points have been made since then advocating a need for greater patience with members who might hail from countries with different views and perspectives as regards the keeping of pets in general and birds specifically. And these points, generally speaking, are not without merit. Cardinal, among others, is absolutely correct when saying that we have to sometimes extend more patience than we might otherwise for the sake of the bird. You might be surprised to learn how often such discussions take place behind the scenes in the Mod Forum.

Because we feel the same way.

"Then great," some of you might be saying. "Why haven't they reversed their decision and reopened the thread, yet?" The answer, quite simply, is that those very lucid and well thought out points ranging from increased patience to cultural sensitivity have nothing to do with the reasoning behind the shutting down of the thread. The thread was shut down because it had become combative. It had devolved into the OP vs members who disagreed with his decision. Now, while I may personally disagree with the assessment that the OP of that thread made a decision based on culturally skewed perspectives, that does not factor into a discussion about the closure of the thread. The thread was no longer constructive, and was veering toward the OP being beaten over the head with what he'd done in releasing his bird to the wild. In short, the decision was largely for his protection and to prevent the further erosion of his relationship with this forum.

Remember, the OP has not been silenced. He is free to post whenever he'd like. But if a thread is no longer serving a constructive purpose, if it has become combative rather than positive and uplifting, we're going to shut it down. So, to reiterate, the thread was not closed out of lack of tolerance for the member's position or cultural perspective. It was closed due to an increasingly negative trend in its direction. Every other discussion here has been largely academic, and while valuable in their own rite, are simply not germane to the question of why the thread was closed in the first place.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:15 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Thanks to my fellow moderators and like-minded members for your patience, courage, and kindness in this discussion. I am always heartened to see us return so faithfully to our Cardinal (!) touchstone: "what helps a bird?" What might in any way help a bird (or a person) who is lonely, sick, frightened, hungry, and desperately needing for somebody, anybody... to pause... care... act... type? That is our beautiful question.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2020, 05:19 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
LOL! The issue of bull-fighting just popped into my mind. No matter how much I hate and loathe and detest the practice, no amount of my preaching will budge the Spanish psyche one millimetre from enjoying its national sport. I think we're faced with something like that here. Maybe. I dunno. But I do know that we'll catch more flies with a spoon of honey... (Mum, 1959).
That's actually not true, most Spanish people are opposed to bull fighting, so much that it's close to being banned. Same as fox hunting with hounds which despite being an English practice got banned because most of us were opposed to it, *passionately* too. Protesters would even spit on the hunters and I remember as a child most adults sympathised with those spitting on them, regardless of other political views, it was that widely and deeply hated. Our Prime Minister offended the Spanish people by assuming they were mostly in favour of bull fighting and calling it "political correctness" that it might get banned, it backfired because the will of the Spanish people is to ban it but he assumed otherwise so to them he basically called them all evil bull fight supporters and stereotyped them based on a small minority's hobby. Just like fox hunting the high social class of those who supported it was the only reason it has lasted so long, money in politics talks. All humans all over the world are the same species, we are born with the same instincts including compassion and aggression that get brought out by different triggers of those instincts. The psychopaths in each culture who lack any compassion at all, develop and enjoy their own cruel activities that don't represent the will of everyone else. As psychopaths naturally become rich and powerful at a higher rate as they have no scruples to hold them back doing whatever they want, they get to donate to politicians' campaigns who do their bidding. So never assume that most people support whatever cruel practices that culture is famous for just because it's still legal, only psychopaths like such things. High functioning psychopaths who blend in by not murdering people are psychopaths nonetheless, because they have no conscience at all and just fake having any sense of justice to avoid being found out for what they are. Now when the *majority* of people in a culture are doing something cruel, like inadequate space or interaction for parrots, they can't all be psychopaths as the genes aren't that common anywhere, so it must be out of of ignorance of the suffering caused or sometimes perceived necessity, it's not because culture somehow erases the compassion instinct that all non-psychopath humans are born with, which is the implication of giving up on education and advocacy based on culture.

Hope that wasn't rambling and incoherent, it's late.

Last edited by Aspie_Aviphile; 03-06-2020 at 05:24 PM.
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