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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:11 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by charmedbyekkie View Post
To be very frank, this is definitely not the first time I have seen people forget the difference in cultures on this forum. As someone who had been fully accepted in two very different cultures and as someone who grew up in a multicultural household (that had the same struggles as every multicultural household does), I do believe that many people verbally say they understand that cultures are different, yet do not fully understand what that means. (Note that I am not blaming anyone.)

What is reserved in Western culture is still quite aggressive when viewed in other cultures. I know I now find most Americans (a group I was/am considered part of) to be incredibly aggressive. Yet when I code-switch, I realise that, in an American context, that American is actually quite soft-spoken. But in my current context, they come off as very brash, arrogant, and aggressive.

I myself had to change completely. Quiet, non-aggressive American Me still came across as aggressive when I first started assimilating into my non-American family's Me. I had to completely change my mindset (American Me has different values, politics, mannerisms, verbiage to Singaporean Me - so much so that I struggle to vote because the two Mes would vote very, very differently).

I even struggle to communicate now with my American friends because of these cultural differences in how things are phrased, what is acceptable to say, what connotations are implied/read.


TL;DR
So yes, to OP, it was aggressive. To the Westerners, it was not aggressive.
Both are equally true and valid. It just depends on if you want to speak in a Western style to a non-Westerner, or if you care to speak in another way.
As an American that deals directly with a team in APAC including Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, PH, and Vietnam I have to be very careful with my wording and approach things differently. We conduct business differently and understanding the cultural differences has made me far more successful. It is so easy to come across as rude or aggressive without meaning to!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2020, 12:12 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote:
Rhomboid is welcome to create a new discussion thread without prejudice to the closure. Whether the hapless bird is better off with this person is conjecture. We don't know if the level of remorse is sufficient to prevent another release. Given the likelihood of further angst, the defensive posture would have likely hardened.

As a long term member, surely you understand the enormous compassion our members have for birds and their keepers/companions. That is our [I]raison d'etre.
Indeed I have deep respect for this forum and all the moderators. Being a moderator is rather a thankless job and you guys are doing great.
I don't want to keep flagging a dead horse. But I just want to point out one aspect about India, or that part of India where Rhomboid comes from .

It is bad to generalise and I am risking being prejudiced and politically incorrect but this is the part of India where such incidents

are not entirely uncommon. So keeping this in mind, I consider it a great oddity that someone from this region has approached an international forum for help and/ or venting his angst.

This itself is a great step keeping the state of pet bird keeping and concern avian welfare in that region of India. As a popular proverb goes- Every Saint has a past and every sinner has a future.

What is best for the bird is definitely going to be a matter of conjecture!! But with my rudimentary knowledge of the part of India, he hails from, I am fairly confident that there is no bird rescue shelter or a fellow compassionate bird keeper within a 200 kilometre radius from where he lives. I could be mistaken though and really wish I am.

I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily and I thank the moderators for all the steps that have been taken.

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2020, 07:12 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Thanks for the thanks!
It's a pleasure to participate.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2020, 11:30 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
Quote:
Rhomboid is welcome to create a new discussion thread without prejudice to the closure. Whether the hapless bird is better off with this person is conjecture. We don't know if the level of remorse is sufficient to prevent another release. Given the likelihood of further angst, the defensive posture would have likely hardened.

As a long term member, surely you understand the enormous compassion our members have for birds and their keepers/companions. That is our [I]raison d'etre.
Indeed I have deep respect for this forum and all the moderators. Being a moderator is rather a thankless job and you guys are doing great.
I don't want to keep flagging a dead horse. But I just want to point out one aspect about India, or that part of India where Rhomboid comes from .

It is bad to generalise and I am risking being prejudiced and politically incorrect but this is the part of India where such incidents

are not entirely uncommon. So keeping this in mind, I consider it a great oddity that someone from this region has approached an international forum for help and/ or venting his angst.

This itself is a great step keeping the state of pet bird keeping and concern avian welfare in that region of India. As a popular proverb goes- Every Saint has a past and every sinner has a future.

What is best for the bird is definitely going to be a matter of conjecture!! But with my rudimentary knowledge of the part of India, he hails from, I am fairly confident that there is no bird rescue shelter or a fellow compassionate bird keeper within a 200 kilometre radius from where he lives. I could be mistaken though and really wish I am.

I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily and I thank the moderators for all the steps that have been taken.

Thank you, we strive for the betterment of captive birds and improving the experience of parronts. Unfortunately the link to similar incidents does not work.

Rhomboid's fluency of English may have encouraged outreach to the international community. Perhaps we are all enlightened by reactions to a first hand account of release.

I would hope this marks a seminal change in Rhomboid's perception of avians. Every activist is rooted in personal challenge, an opportunity to lead by example and foment change. The surviving Alexandrine ought be excellent motive.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2020, 01:10 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

I don't think I saw the thread, although I remember one where there had been a couple of escapees (budgies I think) and the attitude of the thread was quite shocking in it's lack of caring. It was a "well that happened so what should I get now, hope it doesn't happen again lol!" type thread.

Full disclosure 1. I am particularly sensitive to this issue as I have an Alexandrine and they seem to do particularly poorly as they are popular in parts of the world where knowledge, care and facilities can be lacking

Full disclosure 2. I haven't read all of the posts here so sorry if this has been covered or discussed and sorted...

However... I'm not sure how comfortable I feel about the "cultural" argument. If not being able to find out about good husbandry, not having access to appropriate food and toys, not having any access to appropriate caging and veterinary care (all through no fault of the person, but just because of the practical facilities available in lots of parts of the world) doesn't simply mean you shouldn't have a particular pet then I'm not sure what does...

Also there was a point made about internet access being available when the practicalities aren't, the internet = information so maybe it isn't unfair for us to expect everyone who is posting here to have done some research and made sure they actually can look after a parrot properly.

Is it wrong that we say that to people? No need to be rude, I agree, but can we really support birds being kept in barely acceptable conditions just to be polite?
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2020, 09:14 PM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Jottlebot View Post
I don't think I saw the thread, although I remember one where there had been a couple of escapees (budgies I think) and the attitude of the thread was quite shocking in it's lack of caring. It was a "well that happened so what should I get now, hope it doesn't happen again lol!" type thread.



Full disclosure 2. I haven't read all of the posts here so sorry if this has been covered or discussed and sorted...



Hi Jottlebot

I never thought I will post on this thread again but you have written about an issue that is close to my heart. Please read the original thread here.

Hello Parrot lovers

Quote:
Full disclosure 1. I am particularly sensitive to this issue as I have an Alexandrine and they seem to do particularly poorly as they are popular in parts of the world where knowledge, care and facilities can be lacking
Yes this is an issue that is really close to my heart. The Alexandrine Parakeet is a majestic parakeet- A Tiger among parakeets from an ecological perspective.
You are concerned about the welfare perspective but I am also deeply concerned about the conservation perspective.

https://ebird.org/species/alepar2

There have been only 30,000 odd observations of this bird in the wild all over the world of which 23000 are from India. Very similar to the case of the Tiger- over 60% of the population of this species is in India. It has already gone extinct in Vietnam and is very close to extinction in Cambodia and Thailand.

In contrast

https://ebird.org/species/rorpar

There have been 287,000+ observations for the Rose ringed parakeet of which 206,000 are from India.
Also look at the presence of purple dots in the map for the Alexandrine. Almost the blank spaces are those places from where this species has been wiped out.
And I feel some of the people who could actually reverse this situation are reformed pet keepers. Just as some reformed hunters -eg Billy Arjan Singh became the greatest Tiger conservationists, I honestly believe that only reformed and/or ethical pet keepers can save the Alexandrines from further decline in the wild and also ensure better welfare standards for those in captivity.


Quote:
Is it wrong that we say that to people? No need to be rude, I agree, but can we really support birds being kept in barely acceptable conditions just to be polite?
That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that a new comer to this forum should be given sufficient time to adjust to this forum before we enlighten him/her about the harsh truth. I am not saying support birds being kept in unacceptable condition but give a person sufficient time to let the realisation dawn on them. And birds are kept in deplorable condition all over the world. Being angry and speaking out the harsh truth upfront may not always solve the problem.

To give you an analogy, if you have seen the movie Django unchained- how the two protagonists Jamie Fox and Christoph Waltz cleverly manoeuvre to rescue Kerry Washington from Leonardo Di Caprio- the slave owner.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2020, 12:02 AM
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Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"

Quote: Originally Posted by Jottlebot View Post
I don't think I saw the thread, although I remember one where there had been a couple of escapees (budgies I think) and the attitude of the thread was quite shocking in it's lack of caring. It was a "well that happened so what should I get now, hope it doesn't happen again lol!" type thread.

Full disclosure 1. I am particularly sensitive to this issue as I have an Alexandrine and they seem to do particularly poorly as they are popular in parts of the world where knowledge, care and facilities can be lacking

Full disclosure 2. I haven't read all of the posts here so sorry if this has been covered or discussed and sorted...

However... I'm not sure how comfortable I feel about the "cultural" argument. If not being able to find out about good husbandry, not having access to appropriate food and toys, not having any access to appropriate caging and veterinary care (all through no fault of the person, but just because of the practical facilities available in lots of parts of the world) doesn't simply mean you shouldn't have a particular pet then I'm not sure what does...

Also there was a point made about internet access being available when the practicalities aren't, the internet = information so maybe it isn't unfair for us to expect everyone who is posting here to have done some research and made sure they actually can look after a parrot properly.

Is it wrong that we say that to people? No need to be rude, I agree, but can we really support birds being kept in barely acceptable conditions just to be polite?
People lacking the resources shouldn't buy one from a breeder or pet shop, only people with resources should do that (and only then from the very rare breeders and pet shops who are ethical enough to check the customer is suitable etc.), but a lot of the time people are inheriting, rescuing or rehoming them from worse situations and are the best option the bird has, at least temporarily or after an otherwise timid bird has bonded with them. Saying that people lacking resources just shouldn't have them at all increases the risk of people releasing them to the wild because they know of no way to get them to a better captive option than what they have to offer.
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