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Cardinal 02-27-2020 02:34 AM

A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Hi all

This is with reference to the recent thread on the person from India who wrongly released his pet rose ringed parakeet.

I favour a more patient approach in dealing with such members because good quality welfare literature is not available in the various languages of India and possibly rest of Asia , Africa etc. Most of the good literature is available in English and this is accessible only to the highly educated.

So anyone approaching for help, even if they have made a grave mistake like releasing a human bonded pet bird into the wild need to be dealt with greater compassion.

So my appeal to the moderators especially Scott to reopen that thread so that we can continue to help that person at least for the sake of his Pet Alexandrine. In my assessment, despite his fault, the best future for that Alexandrine is for it to remain with him. At least he is willing to communicate and learn, albeit in his own crude way.

:yellow1::yellow1::yellow1:

Betrisher 02-27-2020 03:58 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Cardinal, I couldn't agree with you more!

Time and again, I've seen people from South East Asia driven away from our forums, simply because they came to inform themselves and were then harshly judged because of what they didn't know or what they couldn't buy. Once and for all, I wish members would realise that certain things are categorically *not* available everywhere in the world! That would include CAVs, pelleted food, decent seed mixes, enrichment toys (or, sometimes, even *any* toys) and large cages.

If a person lives in a remote part of SE Asia (where the Internet might be easily available, but retail shops are not), then it's entirely possible that he sees a parrot as a pleasant pet animal which can be easily discarded if problems arise or if it gets ill. Since ringneck species are native to the area, it's not unreasonable to expect a well-meaning person to think he's doing the bird a favour by letting it fly with its own species. It's entirely possible that he wouldn't dream of a parrot being unable to feed itself or find water. After all, the millions of wild ones do!

Flaming a person for coming here and asking questions is not the best outcome for the parrots. Instead, they are condemned to the well-meaning but erroneous thinking of the owners, who are probably good people (that's why they're anxious to ask for help in the first place).

I've seen photos of Alexandrines in Indian markets crammed into cages like sardines, with their poor faces squished against the wire and their wings bent at impossible angles. I've seen macaws chained to metal perches by a foot-long chain. What if a cat lunged? Or a child? The bird has no recourse but to break a limb or perish! This is ignorance, but it's not always malice. The best solution for ignorance is patient education. I don't know a solution for malice. If I did, I'd be a very happy woman!

Finally, I'd like to say that belting a person with a page-long slab of text is not always effective either. Certainly, the text might contain all the info the person needs to keep a healthy, happy bird, but what if he can only just read very basic English? Like: 'Hello, I do not know what my parrot should eat' or 'Please help me fix my sick bird'. It's so easy to get carried away with one's own hard-gleaned knowledge and spew it at the poster, only to have him leave, never to return. I know I've done it myself! (I'm notoriously verbose, despite my best efforts to stop it).

Perhaps a quick fix might be to rewrite some of the most important stickies in very simple English that could be understood by an ESL person (English as a Second Language)? Pictures of cages suitable for various species would be helpful (cages are *not* easy to come by in SE Asia and when they are, they're usually just big enough for a budgie). Pictures of food and seed mixes might be helpful as well. Pictures of home-made toys and feeders and drinking stations. The absence of CAVs is a problem, but perhaps a register of vets and/or university departments where help might be sought could be useful?

OK. I've done it again. Sorry for the length. I'm pretty passionate about this, as I have a feeling a considerable number of people have missed out completely on getting help from our site through misunderstanding. Thank you, Cardinal, for bringing it up again!

Betrisher :)

chris-md 02-27-2020 07:06 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Simply co-signing above. Every word.

Laurasea 02-27-2020 07:11 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
I didn't post on that thread. But I felt compassion for his admissions of mental illness..

And I do see unfair criticism of people in places where there are not the same opportunities..

bill_e 02-27-2020 07:38 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
While I'm not sure what this person's intent actually was, I agree with the sentiment though I think the post should stay closed. He could start afresh in another post without the baggage.

Having said that, it's not only non-western users that are driven away and treated harshly. Many people come here and immediately get lambasted with what they are doing wrong and how they WILL kill their bird. A kinder, gentler, slower approach is needed for all.

SailBoat 02-27-2020 08:16 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Well, I will accept the stoning! As I fully disagree with reopening the Thread in question.

I was the first to respond to the OP as the Thread had seat for three hours prior to my response. And, I reported myself to the Mod Team upon completion of my Post as I believed that the Thread would not inspirer loving and supporting comment as I found it very difficult to control my own deep feelings regarding the release and had cut-out, re-written and made vast changes to what I had provided. Hence, I believed that others may find it equally as difficult to respond without expressing their personal heartache.

I know that I would have bulled though, climbed over, and took whatever measured possible to return my Amazon to a safe place if I had accidentally caused the release... As I hold in my heart the deep pain others members here felt when their sweet parrots disappeared before their very eyes...

I have read the Thread, now multiple times, and although I find where members had expressed their deep heartaches and disbelief regarding the release, I did not find where any member expressing 'Hate or in any way where they became Haters.'

Maybe it's just my vantage point, but with every member Post, I witnessed a response from the OP that was ever more precise in the use of the English Language, ever more pointed in defining members as 'Haters.'

Regarding driving off individuals who live in areas where Avian Medical support is greatly limited. I find it most common when the OP fails to provide any indication of of what part of this vast planet they are located, not ever a region. Yet, request that members provide Vet level support. Regarding, members referring the OP to seek the services of a Certified Avian Vet (CAV)... I will take full responsibility for that definition as I had activity pushed members to seek out the services of a CAV first! I to this day fully support that view point, all be it, I am now use the term Avian Professional (AP) as CAV's are still rare away from major cities...

And again, I'm willing to take the stoning. I will assure you that it will not be the first time, nor will it be the last I have taken such disagreements with my positions.

* I fully agree with Scott's and the Mod Teams position regarding taking down that Thread as it had run it full measure.
* I fully agree with the members who expressed their deep heartache to the acts take by the OP who's action flirted with Animal Abuse.
* I can understand the emotional drivers of depression, but in the end, as Humans, and especially as Adult, we are responsible for our actions...

Flboy 02-27-2020 08:28 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
My issue was when the poster said he was getting so many ‘hate’ comments! I understand there may be issues with translation, but I think, as a group, we were incredibly reserved!
So unless there were comments removed, it really looked like we were still being constructive!
Thank you for bringing this back up! I was going back and forth over that comment!

Flboy 02-27-2020 08:35 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SailBoat (Post 855199)
Well, I will accept the stoning! As I fully disagree with reopening the Thread in question.

I was the first to respond to the OP as the Thread had seat for three hours prior to my response. And, I reported myself to the Mod Team upon completion of my Post as I believed that the Thread would not inspirer loving and supporting comment as I found it very difficult to control my own deep feelings regarding the release and had cut-out, re-written and made vast changes to what I had provided. Hence, I believed that others may find it equally as difficult to respond without expressing their personal heartache.

I know that I would have bulled though, climbed over, and took whatever measured possible to return my Amazon to a safe place if I had accidentally caused the release... As I hold in my heart the deep pain others members here felt when their sweet parrots disappeared before their very eyes...

I have read the Thread, now multiple times, and although I find where members had expressed their deep heartaches and disbelief regarding the release, I did not find where any member expressing 'Hate or in any way where they became Haters.'

Maybe it's just my vantage point, but with every member Post, I witnessed a response from the OP that was ever more precise in the use of the English Language, ever more pointed in defining members as 'Haters.'

Regarding driving off individuals who live in areas where Avian Medical support is greatly limited. I find it most common when the OP fails to provide any indication of of what part of this vast planet they are located, not ever a region. Yet, request that members provide Vet level support. Regarding, members referring the OP to seek the services of a Certified Avian Vet (CAV)... I will take full responsibility for that definition as I had activity pushed members to seek out the services of a CAV first! I to this day fully support that view point, all be it, I am now use the term Avian Professional (AP) as CAV's are still rare away from major cities...

And again, I'm willing to take the stoning. I will assure you that it will not be the first time, nor will it be the last I have taken such disagreements with my positions.

* I fully agree with Scott's and the Mod Teams position regarding taking down that Thread as it had run it full measure.
* I fully agree with the members who expressed their deep heartache to the acts take by the OP who's action flirted with Animal Abuse.
* I can understand the emotional drivers of depression, but in the end, as Humans, and especially as Adult, we are responsible for our actions...

Ditto!

That thread sat for so long, I think, because we were in shock over what had happened! I was afraid of my response, and waited to see what was going to happen!

charmedbyekkie 02-27-2020 09:04 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
To be very frank, this is definitely not the first time I have seen people forget the difference in cultures on this forum. As someone who had been fully accepted in two very different cultures and as someone who grew up in a multicultural household (that had the same struggles as every multicultural household does), I do believe that many people verbally say they understand that cultures are different, yet do not fully understand what that means. (Note that I am not blaming anyone.)

What is reserved in Western culture is still quite aggressive when viewed in other cultures. I know I now find most Americans (a group I was/am considered part of) to be incredibly aggressive. Yet when I code-switch, I realise that, in an American context, that American is actually quite soft-spoken. But in my current context, they come off as very brash, arrogant, and aggressive.

I myself had to change completely. Quiet, non-aggressive American Me still came across as aggressive when I first started assimilating into my non-American family's Me. I had to completely change my mindset (American Me has different values, politics, mannerisms, verbiage to Singaporean Me - so much so that I struggle to vote because the two Mes would vote very, very differently).

I even struggle to communicate now with my American friends because of these cultural differences in how things are phrased, what is acceptable to say, what connotations are implied/read.


TL;DR
So yes, to OP, it was aggressive. To the Westerners, it was not aggressive.
Both are equally true and valid. It just depends on if you want to speak in a Western style to a non-Westerner, or if you care to speak in another way.

charmedbyekkie 02-27-2020 09:08 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrisher (Post 855164)
Perhaps a quick fix might be to rewrite some of the most important stickies in very simple English that could be understood by an ESL person (English as a Second Language)? Pictures of cages suitable for various species would be helpful (cages are *not* easy to come by in SE Asia and when they are, they're usually just big enough for a budgie). Pictures of food and seed mixes might be helpful as well. Pictures of home-made toys and feeders and drinking stations. The absence of CAVs is a problem, but perhaps a register of vets and/or university departments where help might be sought could be useful?

If you want to join forces and, with moderator approval, rewrite the stickies and include pictures/sizes of cages, pictures/multi-named foods, etc... I'm all for helping out and contributing. Am quite used to googling local food names (though only the names common to Msia/Spore) to find Western names for them :p And I'm very used to remote collaboration, so it wouldn't be a hassle at all.

Betrisher 02-27-2020 09:48 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
I'm sorry, I didn't see the original post that sparked this thread so I didn't get the chance to 'read' the OP. Perhaps he was a bl**dy m*ngrel b*stard (Australian term for 'disreputable fellow'), or perhaps he was just ignorant or perhaps he was cuckoo. I dunno. But I was speaking to the many, many times innocent people have been attacked before anyone bothered to ask them where they lived or what their circumstances were.

I so agree with charmedbyekkie! Our US members just don't seem to get that people think differently in other countries. Where I live (a 'western suburb' - 'lower socio-economic area of a medium-sized city), people treat birds largely like animated toys. The idea that they might have behaviours, or be driven by hormones or that they might not just naturally know how to forage for food in the wild is just beyond many peoples' conception. There is just one avian vet in the greater area of my town and he's not a CAV. He's just a vet who happens also to be a bird-watcher, so he's taken the trouble to do a bit of extra reading. Probably 90% of our local vets would refuse to do surgery on a bird because it's just too risky and anaesthesia is regarded as 'impossible'. I've heard that many times from vets!

In conversation with various members from other countries, I've found some people can tend to think of birds as pretty much disposable. If one bird does badly, release it and get another. This may be way off-base, but it's the impression I've gleaned. If you feed the bird seeds (which, as everyone knows, birds love to eat) and the bird remains fat and happy, then why change its diet? Whoever heard of bothering much about an animal's diet anyway? It's just an animal, right? Remember, in many of these countries, even human life is not guarded as dearly as it is in the developed world. It must seem very odd indeed for a person to come here and be told he must feed his birds a special diet and house it in an expensive cage when he may well have trouble feeding his own children!

The bottom line is that in a world where war and warlords and poverty are rife, who's to say a poor bloke doesn't have the right to keep a little bird as a companion to cheer his life? We're in a position to educate people and to improve the lot of birds in some challenging circumstances, but why not be kind about it instead of judging harshly? Why not give simple, direct instructions that anyone living anywhere could carry out? In fact, why not ask first about what's available to an owner before instructing him what he should buy?

Charmedbyekkie, I'd be happy to collaborate with you on this! If you'll send me a PM, we might make a plan and put it to our mods for approval? Thank you for your kind offer to help! :)

PS. If anyone else has any ideas, it'd be great to hear them please!

Scott 02-27-2020 11:48 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal (Post 855160)
Hi all

This is with reference to the recent thread on the person from India who wrongly released his pet rose ringed parakeet.

I favour a more patient approach in dealing with such members because good quality welfare literature is not available in the various languages of India and possibly rest of Asia , Africa etc. Most of the good literature is available in English and this is accessible only to the highly educated.

So anyone approaching for help, even if they have made a grave mistake like releasing a human bonded pet bird into the wild need to be dealt with greater compassion.

So my appeal to the moderators especially Scott to reopen that thread so that we can continue to help that person at least for the sake of his Pet Alexandrine. In my assessment, despite his fault, the best future for that Alexandrine is for it to remain with him. At least he is willing to communicate and learn, albeit in his own crude way.

:yellow1::yellow1::yellow1:

Please consider this an interim response as the moderator team will collaborate and arrive at unified conclusion. I will advocate for the thread to remain closed as it was content reported by three members and Rhomboid (the OP) summarily dismissed substantive dialog:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhomboid (Post 855036)
I don't need any suggestions regarding Alex, he is happy with me.

I re-read the thread and consider Rhomboid educated, quite capable of researching the internet and communicating in fluent English. Also posted a summary of release research including reference links, without response. My impression is the OP preferred to vent rather than engage in productive conversation.

Navigating the cultural and economic divide is challenging for a western-based forum with international reach. I cherish the breadth of global membership and concede our advice is often tinged with well intended naiveté. Consider this a perpetual work to better ourselves!

ParrotForums extends compassion to avians and humans. An immensely personal Mental Illness thread spans ten pages and nearly two years. http://www.parrotforums.com/question...g-parrots.html
While the relationships described are typically symbiotic, Rhomboid is in the realm of separation and guilt. I am personally empathetic but doubt we have the resources to engage successfully. An ideal solution may be found with online Depression Discussion Forums as the plight is problematic in his/her locale. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...475-4/fulltext Note the sixth paragraph in Discussion section, scroll ~ halfway.

Laurasea 02-27-2020 12:39 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charmedbyekkie (Post 855204)
To be very frank, this is definitely not the first time I have seen people forget the difference in cultures on this forum. As someone who had been fully accepted in two very different cultures and as someone who grew up in a multicultural household (that had the same struggles as every multicultural household does), I do believe that many people verbally say they understand that cultures are different, yet do not fully understand what that means. (Note that I am not blaming anyone.)

What is reserved in Western culture is still quite aggressive when viewed in other cultures. I know I now find most Americans (a group I was/am considered part of) to be incredibly aggressive. Yet when I code-switch, I realise that, in an American context, that American is actually quite soft-spoken. But in my current context, they come off as very brash, arrogant, and aggressive.

I myself had to change completely. Quiet, non-aggressive American Me still came across as aggressive when I first started assimilating into my non-American family's Me. I had to completely change my mindset (American Me has different values, politics, mannerisms, verbiage to Singaporean Me - so much so that I struggle to vote because the two Mes would vote very, very differently).

I even struggle to communicate now with my American friends because of these cultural differences in how things are phrased, what is acceptable to say, what connotations are implied/read.


TL;DR
So yes, to OP, it was aggressive. To the Westerners, it was not aggressive.
Both are equally true and valid. It just depends on if you want to speak in a Western style to a non-Westerner, or if you care to speak in another way.

I am so glad to read this and increase my knowledge. Though if your immersion in different cultures, still causes a struggle , then it's easy to see how we struggle.

I worked on international conservative projects designed to save endangered species. It was easy for people outside of the country we were working with to say why ca t you save the tigers, or rhinos, or endangered parrots, and ecosystems?! Yet in this country we have already eliminated all the large carnivore, and hoofstock from all but a tiny fringe parks...and allow development of vital wetlands, river systems, barrier islands.. And struggling with people who want to fish and hunt and poach out if season. Yet in other places that is food they must have to live, not something's done as a hobby.......

But mostly here I'm thrilled to be part of a worldwide community, that lives and adores parrots. I love learning from everyone, and the different experience and stories shared here.

LaManuka 02-27-2020 03:25 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
I wonder, if the super-advanced aliens from outer space were to land on Earth tomorrow and see the way animals are treated all over the world, that they would think we are all a bunch of barbarians for caging them and treating them as “pets” kept for our own amusement. It can easily be argued that keeping any animal in artificial surroundings away from it’s natural environment is cruel and abusive, and it often is! In the here and now however, members on this forum strive their best to provide optimum conditions for our “feather babies” and will have a gut level reaction when a newbie comes here with a story like that of this particular OP, regardless of which part of the world he may come from. Ignorance of what happens to captive birds upon release is not exclusive to the non-Westernised parts of the world, as the following disturbing post will attest …

http://www.parrotforums.com/budgies-...s-houston.html

The original OP we are discussing here ended his first post with the sentence “I am just a parrot killer”, and I wonder if he was expecting members to tell him that his bird would be just fine and perfectly happy after he had released it, and help to assuage his guilt after what he had done. When the responses did not live up to his expectations we were rapidly branded as “haters”, with the OP becoming rather more interested in defending his actions than in hearing that he had simply done the wrong thing regarding the welfare of his parrot. Regardless of what part of the world you live in, some things are just plain wrong, whether you live in Brisbane, Barcelona, Baghdad or Baltimore.

wrench13 02-27-2020 06:02 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Maybe it is just the blockhead indifferent New Yorker in me, but I rarely find any of the regular conttributors to be anythhing other than helpfull, concerned, informative and empathic. Ya a few topics seem to push cerrtain buttons and obvious stupidity can be irritating, but on the whole this forum is like a beautiful day in the neighborhood,, compared to others or Facebook.

Betrisher 02-27-2020 06:25 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
That's an interesting post and article, Scott, and thanks for posting! I wish I'd seen the original post as I have no idea what to think of the OP beyond what people are saying. For mine, I reckon if the original post was 'incendiary', then it's better to leave it in the trash and allow the OP to ask questions again if he's still around.

What do you think about an 'easy English' translation of some of our most important stickies? Perhaps that might give people the info they desperately need in a more dispassionate way? Perhaps, too, we could make a sticky that explains our western philosophy of treating animals at least with respect and protecting them from pain, fear and illness? I know y'can't change peoples' minds as simply as that, but at least it would be a starting point.

LOL! The issue of bull-fighting just popped into my mind. No matter how much I hate and loathe and detest the practice, no amount of my preaching will budge the Spanish psyche one millimetre from enjoying its national sport. I think we're faced with something like that here. Maybe. I dunno. But I do know that we'll catch more flies with a spoon of honey... (Mum, 1959). ;)

Scott 02-27-2020 06:34 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrisher (Post 855313)
That's an interesting post and article, Scott, and thanks for posting! I wish I'd seen the original post as I have no idea what to think of the OP beyond what people are saying. For mine, I reckon if the original post was 'incendiary', then it's better to leave it in the trash and allow the OP to ask questions again if he's still around.

What do you think about an 'easy English' translation of some of our most important stickies? Perhaps that might give people the info they desperately need in a more dispassionate way? Perhaps, too, we could make a sticky that explains our western philosophy of treating animals at least with respect and protecting them from pain, fear and illness? I know y'can't change peoples' minds as simply as that, but at least it would be a starting point.

LOL! The issue of bull-fighting just popped into my mind. No matter how much I hate and loathe and detest the practice, no amount of my preaching will budge the Spanish psyche one millimetre from enjoying its national sport. I think we're faced with something like that here. Maybe. I dunno. But I do know that we'll catch more flies with a spoon of honey... (Mum, 1959). ;)

Trish, here is the original thread: http://www.parrotforums.com/new-memb...ot-lovers.html

We'll discuss the formulation of modified threads!

Betrisher 02-27-2020 09:07 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Wow! What a comedy (or tragedy?) of errors! Now I see where the OP was coming from. He sounds like he has a number of issues to work through and the bird is honestly probably better off in the wild, especially if there are other ringnecks nearby. Not that I would *ever* condone releasing a captive bird into the wild on purpose. Who would want a companion bird to be hungry, cold, thirsty and at the mercy of hawks?

Just as it's possible to be lonely in the middle of a crowd, so a domestic bird is alone and friendless in a flock of wild ones. The OP thinks he's depressed? Imagine how his bird's feeling! :(

I dunno if it helps anyone, but my Barney somehow managed to sustain himself for thirty-eight days in the wild when he escaped. He lost about thirty grams, which is a lot, but he did survive and thank goodness is happy at home these four years on. :)

charmedbyekkie 02-27-2020 09:46 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManuka (Post 855278)
I wonder, if the super-advanced aliens from outer space were to land on Earth tomorrow and see the way animals are treated all over the world, that they would think we are all a bunch of barbarians for caging them and treating them as “pets” kept for our own amusement. It can easily be argued that keeping any animal in artificial surroundings away from it’s natural environment is cruel and abusive, and it often is! In the here and now however, members on this forum strive their best to provide optimum conditions for our “feather babies” and will have a gut level reaction when a newbie comes here with a story like that of this particular OP, regardless of which part of the world he may come from. Ignorance of what happens to captive birds upon release is not exclusive to the non-Westernised parts of the world, as the following disturbing post will attest …

http://www.parrotforums.com/budgies-...s-houston.html

The original OP we are discussing here ended his first post with the sentence “I am just a parrot killer”, and I wonder if he was expecting members to tell him that his bird would be just fine and perfectly happy after he had released it, and help to assuage his guilt after what he had done. When the responses did not live up to his expectations we were rapidly branded as “haters”, with the OP becoming rather more interested in defending his actions than in hearing that he had simply done the wrong thing regarding the welfare of his parrot. Regardless of what part of the world you live in, some things are just plain wrong, whether you live in Brisbane, Barcelona, Baghdad or Baltimore.

In certain cultures, it is very, very aggressive (and rude) to tell someone bluntly that they did wrong. Relationships and discussions are held very differently. Where I currently live, even friends don't openly disagree with each other to their face. Most disagreements between are kept quiet and, if discussed at all, very gingerly and indirectly hinted at without any sense of admonishment only.

I realise most Westerns do not speak this way. I must say, Dutch and Americans speak like a battering ram hahaha While I have a privilege of straddling both worlds, I can laugh, but for my friends where I currently live, they don't understand and often get offended and turn away from a relationship (even acquaintance level) entirely.



In addition, re your: "Regardless of what part of the world you live in, some things are just plain wrong, whether you live in Brisbane, Barcelona, Baghdad or Baltimore." I suggest you look up Fang Sheng (the English term is often "life release").

It is a Buddhist practice in which you do buy animals (often fish, birds, eels, etc) and release them into the wild. I have assisted my family in this as part of my uncle's funeral process. These animals are often not wild caught and are often released in an area they did not come from. Yet this ritual was incredibly important to my aunt in dedication of my deceased uncle.

I disagree that Fang Sheng "is plain wrong". Could it be improved? Yes. But the symbolism and meaning is not wrong.

LaManuka 02-28-2020 03:52 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Now see this is exactly the value of this forum! A place where civilized and constructive debate can take place, where we can agree to disagree and not give in to hysteria or hating!

I may be British by birth and pretty much as white as they come, but I am not unfamiliar with some Buddhist traditions of merit making, having taken part in several during my many trips to Thailand where it is known as tam boon. My husband underwent triple coronary arterial bypass surgery back in 2005 and I make sure to participate in tam boon rituals every time I’ve been back to Thailand since then, to give thanks for his recovery from his heart operation and pray for his continued good health. However as some of the practices involve the catch and release of small fish, finches or sparrows, the ethical dimension of these thanksgiving or merit-making ceremonies is an issue all of its own. At no stage did I ever state that fang sheng is plain wrong, but with many small animals likely being captured or raised in cruel conditions to feed what is somewhat of a growth industry, it does raise some fairly serious ethical questions, but that may be a debate for another time. In relation to the “Budgies In Houston” incident, maybe if you run a Buddhist temple on the Darling Downs in Queensland and you’ve trapped local wild budgies in the morning to be released during a ceremony that afternoon, that MIGHT be okay, though I think the Queensland Department of Environment and Heritage might have something to say about that. But you have NO business releasing budgies for such a ceremony on a whole different continent!

In the case of this incident with this particular OP however, we are not talking about tam boon, fang sheng or the even soft release of a captive bird into a perhaps friendlier environment like a sanctuary where it would have every chance of successful rehabilitation into the wild. I have seen several cases of American members who have received a far worse verbal kick in the pants for much less serious behaviour than that displayed by this OP, because as someone who has had the “benefit” of Western education and concepts they’ve STILL gone and done something dumb, when they really should have known better.

Perhaps the responses to this OP could have been phrased less bluntly, that’s true. Perhaps mine was seen through the prism of my tiny Lilly being chased by a butcherbird that locked onto her the second she wriggled free from my hands in my backyard last year. It was only by burying herself in leaf litter at the base of the tree she crashed into that hid her long enough for me to find her that she survived, otherwise she most certainly would have been torn to shreds. The OP may indeed have been offended and that is a pity, but the true victim here is the poor little bird who most likely became breakfast for a hungry hawk, all because his owner found his perfectly natural vocalisations annoying for a few moments.

I find THAT offensive.

GaleriaGila 02-28-2020 06:58 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wrench13 (Post 855308)
Maybe it is just the blockhead indifferent New Yorker in me, but I rarely find any of the regular conttributors to be anythhing other than helpfull, concerned, informative and empathic. Ya a few topics seem to push cerrtain buttons and obvious stupidity can be irritating, but on the whole this forum is like a beautiful day in the neighborhood,, compared to others or Facebook.

As I'm reading and catching up on all of this...

I appreciate your blockheaded indifferent New Yorker state of mind, Al. Our regular contributors ARE passionate, compassionate people who care enough to grapple with hard questions, and this site IS a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Thank you for that interlude as we continue to sort out our thoughts. :)

Flboy 02-28-2020 07:21 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManuka (Post 855278)
.......The original OP we are discussing here ended his first post with the sentence “I am just a parrot killer”, and I wonder if he was expecting members to tell him that his bird would be just fine and perfectly happy after he had released it, and help to assuage his guilt after what he had done. When the responses did not live up to his expectations we were rapidly branded as “haters”, with the OP becoming rather more interested in defending his actions than in hearing that he had simply done the wrong thing regarding the welfare of his parrot. Regardless of what part of the world you live in, some things are just plain wrong, whether you live in Brisbane, Barcelona, Baghdad or Baltimore.

This was my read of the post too! He came forward, giving himself a beating, I feel, looking for comfort!
Wrench13, you are a hoot! In a very good way! I have worked many years in Yonkers and the Bronx! Very straight forward folks! You instantly know where you stand! Being in Florida for 30 years, I still slip at times and forget to leave my conversational safety on!
I agree, I felt we were amazingly reserved! But I say this knowing I am one of those ‘rude Americans’!

Anansi 02-28-2020 10:34 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Hello, all. I think what's happening here is the unfortunate conflation of two things which, beyond the surface similarity of involving someone who is not from either the US, Australia, or Europe, is largely unrelated.

Is there an issue at times wherein members can be somewhat culturally insensitive in their responses to posters coming here for help? Absolutely. (Though I would also mention that these instances are outnumbered by the times where the members of this community show compassion and warmth to posters in need of advice and succor.) We mods are very much aware that this is a problem and have been working for some time now to change that tendency. Or mitigate it, at the very least.

And I must say, to a large degree our wonderful members have been responding positively to our efforts. For instance, we see a lot more people making the suggestion for a Certified Avian Vet with the proviso: 'if one is available where you live' attached. And there have been far less instances of people being lambasted if they actually do not. Same is true of cage sizes and such.These are 2 small examples, but they illustrate that members are learning, and they are trying to be more culturally inclusive in their thinking.

Of course, we still have a ways to go. There is always more we have to learn from one another. And dialogue will continue along this vein for some time to come.

But all that said, the situation with the OP of the thread in question is not one of cultural insensitivity. Take a read through it. There is no indication that there is an issue with his ability to successfully communicate in English. He expresses himself rather clearly and fluently, actually. Also, and this is key, he knows that what he did was wrong. This wasn't a case of him practicing a long-standing religious tradition for the sake of spiritual absolution or anything else. He did it because he got annoyed. With his bird.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhomboid (Post 854863)
On 23rd Feb I released my ring neck in the open field where palm trees surrounds the crop field. I did it since he was squeaking in the car cabin,I got annoyed and I released him...

There was no tradition, there. He acted out of annoyance. And annoyance is universal. While we all come from different backgrounds and cultures, we are all familiar with it. And I would think, regardless of one's views on releasing a bird into the wild, we would all agree that doing so out of sheer exasperation would be less than optimal as a rationalization.

But at the end of the day, the thread was closed because it had devolved into back-and-forth between the OP and other posters to the thread. There was no longer anything constructive about the conversation. He was defensive, some members were angry, and there was no changing what had already occurred regarding his bird. In addition, the fact the OP said his decision was, at least in part, spurred on by a bout of depression meant that we did not want him being beaten continually over the head about it, either. Leaving the thread open would just have allowed things to degenerate further. In short, we would not have been doing our jobs as moderators.

So, we closed it. And stand by our decision.

As for stickies, it wouldn't really be a matter of 'rewriting' or 'replacing' them. But new ones can be added. And old ones can be removed if they become outdated or are proven false. Here is the sticky process in a nutshell: A thread is created by a member, and if it is seen as both helpful AND completely representative of Parrot Forums' ideals as a whole, it is nominated by a mod to be made into a sticky. But, to help ensure that said thread is truly representative, it requires a unanimous vote to become... stickerized? stickified? stuck? stickied? You know what I mean. So, there is never a guarantee that any given thread will become a sticky. (Heck, there's a thread or two I've wanted as stickies for years that never made the cut.)

But, that said, a collaborative thread by Trish and Charmed would be enthusiastically welcomed, as both are highly respected and beloved members of this community. And there is every possibility it could become a sticky. But there is never a guarantee.

GaleriaGila 02-28-2020 05:40 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Just to be clear about being clear (:)), I am in full agreement with the decisions and sentiments set forth by the moderators. If I could express these ideas more persuasively or clearly, I would. Proud to be on the Team.

Cardinal 02-28-2020 08:38 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Ok! Typing this from phone. If that person did not have an Alexandrine , we can even afford to be even more harsh. The compassion is keeping in mind the bird in his custody and not exactly for the human. This is similar to the case of my neighbors who were about to leave their budgies unattended for a 10 day vacation. Even though I may internally feel like slapping them, I chose to be polite and compassionate or at least pretend for the sake of the welfare of the birds.

Scott 02-28-2020 11:56 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal (Post 855548)
Ok! Typing this from phone. If that person did not have an Alexandrine , we can even afford to be even more harsh. The compassion is keeping in mind the bird in his custody and not exactly for the human. This is similar to the case of my neighbors who were about to leave their budgies unattended for a 10 day vacation. Even though I may internally feel like slapping them, I chose to be polite and compassionate or at least pretend for the sake of the welfare of the birds.

That is why you are such a great fit with this forum! We tend to be sympathetic for the bird's welfare to a fault. Last outcome we wish for is backlash against Rhomboid's Alexandrine. I was quite disappointed when he refused suggestions for care.

Cardinal 03-02-2020 09:41 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anansi (Post 855417)

There is no indication that there is an issue with his ability to successfully communicate in English. He expresses himself rather clearly and fluently, actually. Also, and this is key, he knows that what he did was wrong. This wasn't a case of him practicing a long-standing religious tradition for the sake of spiritual absolution or anything else. He did it because he got annoyed. With his bird.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhomboid (Post 854863)
On 23rd Feb I released my ring neck in the open field where palm trees surrounds the crop field. I did it since he was squeaking in the car cabin,I got annoyed and I released him...

There was no tradition, there. He acted out of annoyance. And annoyance is universal. While we all come from different backgrounds and cultures, we are all familiar with it. And I would think, regardless of one's views on releasing a bird into the wild, we would all agree that doing so out of sheer exasperation would be less than optimal as a rationalization.

But at the end of the day, the thread was closed because it had devolved into back-and-forth between the OP and other posters to the thread. There was no longer anything constructive about the conversation. He was defensive, some members were angry, and there was no changing what had already occurred regarding his bird.

.


Yes I empathise with you. But my perspective is as follows.
India is a vast country with nearly 1.3 billion people. Even though it is a single political entity it is more comparable to the European Union than to say slightly more monolithic entities like China. Perhaps the closest entity that it can be compared to is Indonesia but that country has less than 30% of the population.

It is very rare for someone from India to come and ask for help in their own crude fashion. And though what I say is politically incorrect, some parts of India are far more "crude" in speech than others.

Now if this person had only one bird, I will also whole heartedly go with the moderators's decision. But this person has another bird that our collective expertise can help though the human involved does not seem to be recipient of good advice (at this moment).

So my suggestion is that if we have a greater patience threshold before we shut off communication with such members, it will be good for the welfare of the bird in his custody.
So instead of being tolerant towards 10 rude messages, we could increase it to 25 or 50 after which we realise we are hitting a wall and close communication.

I hope that made sense. Again I want to emphasise the compassion is not for the human being but for the hapless bird, which in current circumstances is probably best off with this person only.

:yellow1::yellow1::yellow1:

bill_e 03-02-2020 10:12 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Cardinal,

I fully support the decision to close the thread although I would have done so the night before as it was clear what was going to happen then. Allowing for more posts to continue to degrade the relationship between the poster and forum members would only solidify the OP's negative experience as well as the forum members.

While the thread was closed, the OP was not banned and thus communication wasn't severed. The only thing I would have done differently other than closing the thread sooner, would have been to PM the OP and explain why the thread was closed and encourage him to start a new thread with a better attitude.....That may actually have been what happened and we just don't know about it.



Sent from my SM-T830 Galaxy Tab S4 using Tapatalk

SailBoat 03-02-2020 11:05 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bill_e (Post 856109)
Cardinal,

I fully support the decision to close the thread although I would have done so the night before as it was clear what was going to happen then. Allowing for more posts to continue to degrade the relationship between the poster and forum members would only solidify the OP's negative experience as well as the forum members.

While the thread was closed, the OP was not banned and thus communication wasn't severed. The only thing I would have done differently other than closing the thread sooner, would have been to PM the OP and explain why the thread was closed and encourage him to start a new thread with a better attitude.....That may actually have been what happened and we just don't know about it.

Sent from my SM-T830 Galaxy Tab S4 using Tapatalk

That is in fact Standard Protocol when shutting down a Thread...
Our Mods are kind to a fault in that regard...

Betrisher 03-03-2020 01:15 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Just being the devil's advocate, but supposing the OP has no clue there was anything wrong with his attitude? In many countries, an adult man's opinion is everything and no one would dare challenge him in anything he might do, no matter how ridiculous it might seem!

I once knew a woman who kept two SC2s in a cage that measured 4ft x 3ft x 2ft. I spoke with her many times and suggested her birds would be much happier in a larger cage. 'Just imagine' I said, 'if they could fly about a bit or climb around and play'.

'Oh!' she replied, 'they wouldn't be interested in that. All they ever do is just sit there!'

I watched those poor bl**dy birds sitting, doing nothing in that cage for over a decade! There is no law by which they could be seized (I checked with the local RSPCA, which is not worth a crumpet and only cares about cats and dogs) and the police wouldn't interfere because the birds were not (visibly) sick. This was in Australia, where we're supposed to be a developed nation.

There are no words!!!

Once I had exhausted my own welcome in chatting to the woman, the only hope I held for the birds was that someone at some point might eventually have penetrated her thick skull and made her see how cruel she was being. More than once, I had to walk away before I made her angry. My only hope was to drip, drip, drip like water on her ignorance. If I got her off-side, all hope would have been lost. As it happened, either the woman or her husband died and the birds disappeared from the yard. I hope like mad they found a decent home, but I doubt it. Ignorance is endemic where I live.

What Cardinal is trying to point out is that the entire *culture* in some countries simply takes what we see as cruelty for granted. People simply do not see an animal as anything special: it's more like a cactus or a pot-plant. While it's young and cute and interesting, it reflects well on the owner. Once those traits grow old, it's expendable. I have learned in life that berating a person is not the most efficient way of encouraging him to see things the way I do. That's all.

In the interest of poor birds that may be subject to awful cruelty, Cardinal and I are only asking that we try a different tack and recognise different cultures. Help might reach those birds if we just tried a little harder.

I won't beat a dead horse any longer over this, but the moral high ground can be a lonely place indeed.

Scott 03-03-2020 10:38 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal (Post 856103)
So my suggestion is that if we have a greater patience threshold before we shut off communication with such members, it will be good for the welfare of the bird in his custody.
So instead of being tolerant towards 10 rude messages, we could increase it to 25 or 50 after which we realise we are hitting a wall and close communication.

I hope that made sense. Again I want to emphasise the compassion is not for the human being but for the hapless bird, which in current circumstances is probably best off with this person only.

:yellow1::yellow1::yellow1:

Our patience threshold included three reports by senior members urging closure, and significant dialog amongst moderators. For more perspective and context, Rhomboid definitively closed the door to advice re surviving Alexandrine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhomboid (Post 855036)
I don't need any suggestions regarding Alex, he is happy with me.

Rhomboid is welcome to create a new discussion thread without prejudice to the closure. Whether the hapless bird is better off with this person is conjecture. We don't know if the level of remorse is sufficient to prevent another release. Given the likelihood of further angst, the defensive posture would have likely hardened.

As a long term member, surely you understand the enormous compassion our members have for birds and their keepers/companions. That is our raison d'etre.

Scott 03-03-2020 11:00 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrisher (Post 856134)
Just being the devil's advocate, but supposing the OP has no clue there was anything wrong with his attitude?

What Cardinal is trying to point out is that the entire *culture* in some countries simply takes what we see as cruelty for granted.
In the interest of poor birds that may be subject to awful cruelty, Cardinal and I are only asking that we try a different tack and recognise different cultures. Help might reach those birds if we just tried a little harder.

I won't beat a dead horse any longer over this, but the moral high ground can be a lonely place indeed.

Rhomboid clearly understood the gravity of release and expressed a bit of remorse:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhomboid (Post 855026)
yeah, he is gone and still gives me sleepless nights.

Cruelty to animals knows no borders and holds quarter in every nation. It is rife in the U.S. though we make steady strides. Leading by example and sharing our passion within these forums has proven helpful. While we celebrate the diversity of our membership, we have at times made judgments based on actions, not locale.

Moral high ground is relativistic and has been used as cudgel for millennia.

Terry57 03-03-2020 11:16 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
If Rhomboid had actually been asking for help in trying to recapture his bird, I would have agreed with leaving his thread open. However, since he had no intention on going back to even look for his bird, it seemed he wanted absolution for his actions rather than help.

He was not asking for help with cage sizes, or food, or anything to make his remaining bird's life better. If he had been, I would agree that this is where compassion and help are required. He also made it clear that he wasn't asking for help with his Alex. If he did choose to ask for help for his Alex, then a new thread would be the most helpful without the baggage of his first thread.

The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.

charmedbyekkie 03-03-2020 11:47 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry57 (Post 856208)
The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.

While I agree with that belief, I can't express how many times I have been asked:
Quote:

It's a bird - shouldn't it be flying free with other birds? Isn't it cruel to cage them and keep them in houses?
It is a common belief in certain countries that birds are almost a symbol of freedom, of soaring where only our spirits can go, of dreams and well-wishes. And as a result, in certain countries, there's a belief that birds are better off free, flying in the skies with other birds, not brought down to our human level.

Given the choice between that and the life that most songbirds in Chinese tradition live (and as a result, many parrots live), I do wonder what to say.

Terry57 03-03-2020 12:19 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by charmedbyekkie (Post 856218)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry57 (Post 856208)
The action of releasing a domesticated bird into the wild because their noise is bothering someone should not be glossed over, no matter where the person is from.

While I agree with that belief, I can't express how many times I have been asked:
Quote:

It's a bird - shouldn't it be flying free with other birds? Isn't it cruel to cage them and keep them in houses?
It is a common belief in certain countries that birds are almost a symbol of freedom, of soaring where only our spirits can go, of dreams and well-wishes. And as a result, in certain countries, there's a belief that birds are better off free, flying in the skies with other birds, not brought down to our human level.

Given the choice between that and the life that most songbirds in Chinese tradition live (and as a result, many parrots live), I do wonder what to say.

If he had released his bird because he felt that keeping it in a cage was wrong,this may have been a different discussion with more nuanced replies. However, he released him because of irritation at the noises the IRN was making. Comparing this particular situation to people being opposed to birds being caged or to how songbirds are kept in China confuses me. People commented on the actual situation, which is that he released a domesticated bird because of his irritation, and he never mentioned any ethical beliefs he may have had.

charmedbyekkie 03-03-2020 05:54 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
I will leave this link here and have nothing more to say on this matter:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/pol...w/47315094.cms

Quote:

NEW DELHI: Birds have the fundamental right to "live with dignity" and fly in the sky without being kept in cages or subjected to cruelty, Delhi High Court has said while holding that running their trade was a "violation of their rights".

Justice Manmohan Singh expressed anguish that instead of being allowed to fly free, they were "exported illegally to foreign countries without availability of proper food, water or medical aid".

"I am clear in mind that all the birds have fundamental rights to fly in the sky and all human beings have no right to keep them in small cages for the purposes of their business or otherwise," the judge said.

The high court issued notice to Delhi Police as well as the bird owner, Md Mohazzim, and sought their responses by May 28.

The high court made the observations and issued the orders while staying the direction of a trial court which had allowed some birds to be released to the same person from whom they were rescued on his plea.

The trial court order was stayed on a plea by NGO People for Animals, which had challenged the release of birds into custody of owners without hearing the NGO which had freed the birds.


The NGO, in its plea filed through advocate S D Windlesh, has alleged that the trial court released the birds into Mohazzim's custody despite arriving at a finding that he was not the owner of the birds.

Granting relief to the NGO, the high court said, "...This court is of the view that running the trade of birds is in violation of the rights of the birds. They deserve sympathy. Nobody is caring as to whether they have been inflicted cruelty or not despite a settled law that birds have a fundamental right to fly and cannot be caged and will have to be set free in the sky.

"Birds have fundamental rights including the right to live with dignity and they cannot be subjected to cruelty by anyone including claim made by the respondent (Mohazzim)."

LaManuka 03-03-2020 07:30 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
The good Justice’s ruling in this case is absolutely correct! There are more than enough captive bred parrots and other species available to satisfy the demand of the pet trade without the need to continue taking more from the wild. When was the last time anyone saw a wolf being taken from it’s native habitat because someone wanted a pet canine?

Wild caught birds are often subjected to cruelty and their lives endangered in the way they’re housed and transported, to say nothing of how such illegal practices endanger the very survival of those species altogether. Yet the trade does continue, often on the back of trade in illegal narcotics or weapons, causing immeasurable suffering to all involved. We in Australia well remember in our not too distant past seeing deeply distressing film footage of various native parrot species being jammed into airless suitcases for illegal export through our airports, and many of them being dead by the time they were found by customs officers. Although we don’t see it here so much anymore it still continues in many parts of the world and is every bit as cruel. And unnecessary. The judge here has taken one small step in trying to stamp out disgusting illegal trafficking, yet I cannot help but wonder what was the fate of the birds who were caught up in this.

I've said before that I think the day is coming where humans will no longer be permitted to keep pets of any species purely for their own amusement, but we cannot in good conscience simply turn a domesticated animal loose and hope that it can fend for itself. Our companion birds are not as far removed from their wild ancestors, that is very true. But a bird who has spent it’s life in captivity should not be released into the wild where it will most likely starve or be killed by any number of predators, and certainly not because it’s owner acted on a momentary impulse which he now regrets, such as is the case with our original OP. The wider debate about whether any of us should be keeping any bird from experiencing the full richness of the life that it has evolved over millions of years for, with all of it’s splendour and potential danger, is however a very valid one, and one which should continue here on this forum and elsewhere for a long time to come.

Anansi 03-04-2020 12:53 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Let me just boil things back down to their basics, as the complexities of cultural perspectives seem to have muddied the waters on something that is far more basic and simple than this conversation would suggest.

The original premise of this thread was to contest the mod decision of closing the thread in question, yes? End of the day, it all boils down to that. Now, many points have been made since then advocating a need for greater patience with members who might hail from countries with different views and perspectives as regards the keeping of pets in general and birds specifically. And these points, generally speaking, are not without merit. Cardinal, among others, is absolutely correct when saying that we have to sometimes extend more patience than we might otherwise for the sake of the bird. You might be surprised to learn how often such discussions take place behind the scenes in the Mod Forum.

Because we feel the same way.

"Then great," some of you might be saying. "Why haven't they reversed their decision and reopened the thread, yet?" The answer, quite simply, is that those very lucid and well thought out points ranging from increased patience to cultural sensitivity have nothing to do with the reasoning behind the shutting down of the thread. The thread was shut down because it had become combative. It had devolved into the OP vs members who disagreed with his decision. Now, while I may personally disagree with the assessment that the OP of that thread made a decision based on culturally skewed perspectives, that does not factor into a discussion about the closure of the thread. The thread was no longer constructive, and was veering toward the OP being beaten over the head with what he'd done in releasing his bird to the wild. In short, the decision was largely for his protection and to prevent the further erosion of his relationship with this forum.

Remember, the OP has not been silenced. He is free to post whenever he'd like. But if a thread is no longer serving a constructive purpose, if it has become combative rather than positive and uplifting, we're going to shut it down. So, to reiterate, the thread was not closed out of lack of tolerance for the member's position or cultural perspective. It was closed due to an increasingly negative trend in its direction. Every other discussion here has been largely academic, and while valuable in their own rite, are simply not germane to the question of why the thread was closed in the first place.

GaleriaGila 03-04-2020 08:15 AM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Thanks to my fellow moderators and like-minded members for your patience, courage, and kindness in this discussion. I am always heartened to see us return so faithfully to our Cardinal (!) touchstone: "what helps a bird?" What might in any way help a bird (or a person) who is lonely, sick, frightened, hungry, and desperately needing for somebody, anybody... to pause... care... act... type? That is our beautiful question.

Aspie_Aviphile 03-06-2020 05:19 PM

Re: A more compassionate approach to Pet owners from the "Non West"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrisher (Post 855313)
LOL! The issue of bull-fighting just popped into my mind. No matter how much I hate and loathe and detest the practice, no amount of my preaching will budge the Spanish psyche one millimetre from enjoying its national sport. I think we're faced with something like that here. Maybe. I dunno. But I do know that we'll catch more flies with a spoon of honey... (Mum, 1959). ;)

That's actually not true, most Spanish people are opposed to bull fighting, so much that it's close to being banned. Same as fox hunting with hounds which despite being an English practice got banned because most of us were opposed to it, *passionately* too. Protesters would even spit on the hunters and I remember as a child most adults sympathised with those spitting on them, regardless of other political views, it was that widely and deeply hated. Our Prime Minister offended the Spanish people by assuming they were mostly in favour of bull fighting and calling it "political correctness" that it might get banned, it backfired because the will of the Spanish people is to ban it but he assumed otherwise so to them he basically called them all evil bull fight supporters and stereotyped them based on a small minority's hobby. Just like fox hunting the high social class of those who supported it was the only reason it has lasted so long, money in politics talks. All humans all over the world are the same species, we are born with the same instincts including compassion and aggression that get brought out by different triggers of those instincts. The psychopaths in each culture who lack any compassion at all, develop and enjoy their own cruel activities that don't represent the will of everyone else. As psychopaths naturally become rich and powerful at a higher rate as they have no scruples to hold them back doing whatever they want, they get to donate to politicians' campaigns who do their bidding. So never assume that most people support whatever cruel practices that culture is famous for just because it's still legal, only psychopaths like such things. High functioning psychopaths who blend in by not murdering people are psychopaths nonetheless, because they have no conscience at all and just fake having any sense of justice to avoid being found out for what they are. Now when the *majority* of people in a culture are doing something cruel, like inadequate space or interaction for parrots, they can't all be psychopaths as the genes aren't that common anywhere, so it must be out of of ignorance of the suffering caused or sometimes perceived necessity, it's not because culture somehow erases the compassion instinct that all non-psychopath humans are born with, which is the implication of giving up on education and advocacy based on culture.

Hope that wasn't rambling and incoherent, it's late.


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