Distraction or negative inforcer?

SilleIN · Nov 30, 2016

I have for some time, when I have the birds with me, when they try to nip at their harnesses, I might move my arm/shoulder to distract them from chewing at the harness.

I saw a video on youtube about making toys for parrots and he at one stage nudged a play stand with two cockatoos, who were about to fight. He then said that that was a negative inforcer.

To me that is very much like when I move my arm or shoulder in order for the bird to stop biting the harness.

I have been thinking about it all day and can't seem to let it go in my head. I have seen it as a distraction, but if it's actually a negative inforcer, I don't want to do it.

I would be grateful to hear what you think. Thank you

SailBoat · Nov 30, 2016

SilleIN said:
I have for some time, when I have the birds with me, when they try to nip at their harnesses, I might move my arm/shoulder to distract them from chewing at the harness.

I saw a video on youtube about making toys for parrots and he at one stage nudged a play stand with two cockatoos, who were about to fight. He then said that that was a negative inforcer.

To me that is very much like when I move my arm or shoulder in order for the bird to stop biting the harness.

I have been thinking about it all day and can't seem to let it go in my head. I have seen it as a distraction, but if it's actually a negative inforcer, I don't want to do it.

I would be grateful to hear what you think. Thank you

The clue as to whether it is or is not a negative enforcer, i.e. supporting the behavior and not discouraging the behavior is whether the Parrot does it more often, or less often! Clearly the want is for the activity to stop!

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird · Nov 30, 2016

Agreed.
If a "punishment" or "distraction" results in increased behavior, it's POSITIVE RENFORCEMENT.
Not sure where this might fit in, but...
A "NEGATVE REINFORCEMENT" is when cessation of a stimulus increases behavior... like if my wife nags me to do X and when I do it, she's quiet... my behavior increases.
By contrast, if I do not increase X, or maybe even do less of it, nagging has qualities of punishment, and punishment can have negative secondary emotional side effects, plus as the great behaviorist Skinner said, punishment can work, but the price is eternal vigilance on the part of the behavior modifier. So much better to reward, then "stretch" the reward schedule (if you really want to see the behavior a lot)... that is, to establish a behavior, reward it quickly and instantly at first, then reward it after every two behaviors, then after 3-4, up and up, until your bird is willing to do lots of X for a single reward. That establishes a very steady behavior (that's hard to extinguish, or eliminate, beware!). Which is why, if you want to eliminate a behavior, you want to stop rewarding it completely... if you give in and reward it every now and then, you're creating INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT! Okay, now that I have behavior-mod nerded out on everybody...

PS
I was going to write that for the Mrs. to post, but I decided to claim it.

SilleIN · Nov 30, 2016

Re: Distraction or negative enforcer?

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird said:
Agreed.
If a "punishment" or "distraction" results in increased behavior, it's POSITIVE RENFORCEMENT.
Not sure where this might fit in, but...
A "NEGATVE REINFORCEMENT" is when cessation of a stimulus increases behavior... like if my wife nags me to do X and when I do it, she's quiet... my behavior increases.
By contrast, if I do not increase X, or maybe even do less of it, nagging has qualities of punishment, and punishment can have negative secondary emotional side effects, plus as the great behaviorist Skinner said, punishment can work, but the price is eternal vigilance on the part of the behavior modifier. So much better to reward, then "stretch" the reward schedule (if you really want to see the behavior a lot)... that is, to establish a behavior, reward it quickly and instantly at first, then reward it after every two behaviors, then after 3-4, up and up, until your bird is willing to do lots of X for a single reward. That establishes a very steady behavior (that's hard to extinguish, or eliminate, beware!). Which is why, if you want to eliminate a behavior, you want to stop rewarding it completely... if you give in and reward it every now and then, you're creating INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT! Okay, now that I have behavior-mod nerded out on everybody...

PS
I was going to write that for the Mrs. to post, but I decided to claim it.

I might be a bit thick, but I am more confused now

The thing is, I don't want to punish my bird (in my terminoligy a negative enforcer) as I don't want them to think they can't trust me. I do praise the birds for not biting the harnesses and they don't do it all the time, just every now and then, but for obvious reasons, I can't praise them all the time, when they aren't biting the harness.

I might need to explain what I do, so you can help me.

When they bite the harness I wiggle my shoulder a bit. This stops the behaviour and I then praise them for having stopped the biting.

To me a distraction is an ok tool in training. Punishment is not.

I need to figure out if my action is a distraction or a punishment to the bird.

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird · Nov 30, 2016

As Sailboat says... the undesired behaviors tell the story. Count them. If they increase, not good. If they decrease, good. Sorry to complicate things with psychobabble terms. You might want to learn more about basic behavior modification. Fun, in my thinking, at least, and useful. Here's a fuller explanation of some of the terms I used.
8 Useful Behavior Modification Techniques for Adults - Operation Meditation - Operation Meditation
http://uwf.edu/wmikulas/Webpage/behavior/chapterone.htm

I should add that these tactics were NOT developed and researched, by and large, with parrots, and.................... parrots are a being unto themselves.

SailBoat · Nov 30, 2016

If your Parrot understands NO, that would be a better tool!

Rival, I enjoyed the psychobabble - just saying!

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird · Nov 30, 2016

Sailboat, I am sincerely flattered.

Kentuckienne · Nov 30, 2016

SilleIN - negative reinforcement isn't the same thing as punishment. It's just the companion of positive reinforcement. It means that a behavior is reinforced when it results in something bad not happening. Ok, that's convoluted. Example: I wear a hat in the convertible, because it lets me avoid getting a sunburn on top of my head. My hat-wearing behavior was reinforced by noticing that I didn't get a sunburn. If I don't like sunburn, and I remember that wearing my hat will prevent it, I will probably engage in more hat wearing. My hat wearing was negatively reinforced.

That's a bit different from behavior extinction by lack of any reinforcement. If saying "Sweetie, would you please slow down on the curves" has no result, I will stop saying it. I will still say something, it just won't be that.

So don't take the word "negative" too literally here. You aren't punishing the parrots. I doubt they would even make the connection that if they stop biting the harness, the earthquake will stop or not happen. I'm sure you are not doing it with any intent to punish, and that they know this. It's a gentle distraction that is really very kind, don't you think? It doesn't add to their stress over the harness or cause any emotional distress.

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird · Dec 1, 2016

Thanks, Ms. K. I forget that "negative" has a negative connotation in common parlance.

SailBoat · Dec 1, 2016

Way to much psychobabble going on!

Just use the word NO! That will save everyone from needing to much couch time or additional /extensive use of adult beverages.

Shine · Jan 21, 2017

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird said:
Agreed.
If a "punishment" or "distraction" results in increased behavior, it's POSITIVE RENFORCEMENT.
Not sure where this might fit in, but...
A "NEGATVE REINFORCEMENT" is when cessation of a stimulus increases behavior... like if my wife nags me to do X and when I do it, she's quiet... my behavior increases.
By contrast, if I do not increase X, or maybe even do less of it, nagging has qualities of punishment, and punishment can have negative secondary emotional side effects, plus as the great behaviorist Skinner said, punishment can work, but the price is eternal vigilance on the part of the behavior modifier. So much better to reward, then "stretch" the reward schedule (if you really want to see the behavior a lot)... that is, to establish a behavior, reward it quickly and instantly at first, then reward it after every two behaviors, then after 3-4, up and up, until your bird is willing to do lots of X for a single reward. That establishes a very steady behavior (that's hard to extinguish, or eliminate, beware!). Which is why, if you want to eliminate a behavior, you want to stop rewarding it completely... if you give in and reward it every now and then, you're creating INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT! Okay, now that I have behavior-mod nerded out on everybody...

PS
I was going to write that for the Mrs. to post, but I decided to claim it.

Lol, when I saw 'Skinner' I knew it sounded familiar. You soundl like the BCBA i work with! Lol

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Distraction or negative inforcer?

SilleIN

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SilleIN

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Rival_of_the_Rickeybird

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Kentuckienne

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Rival_of_the_Rickeybird

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Shine

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Harness extensions?

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