Parrot communication and respecting if your parrot wants to do something

Kalel · Apr 12, 2019

Hi everyone,

I found this neat article about using "start buttons" which are basically signs from your parrot that he or she is ok with doing something such as stepping up or accepting head scratches. Neat article that helps us to avoid bites that may be a result of us forcing ourselves on our beloved fids.

https://blogpamelaclarkonline.com/2...BMBd4ZWv1ffY_IauCRWxeTSLJKIfjPhn-sdMbt6bsu8jI

noodles123 · Apr 12, 2019

Thanks for posting this. It contains a lot of good information.

That having been said, as an ABA NERD, this isn't really "antecedent manipulation", so much as it is teaching a socially acceptable replacement behavior (functional equivalent) for biting (aka- not hitting the button or hitting the button). It is the same as teaching a kid to raise his/her hand when he/she has something to say, as opposed to yelling out (in this instance, yelling out and attention biting are comparable aversive behaviors).

Antecedent manipulation would simply be avoiding contact at times when your bird's body language indicates fear/agitation etc, or making sure you weren't wearing a shirt your bird hates...but antecedent manipulation does not involve teaching anything new.

It's funny because the article bashes time-outs a bit and while time-outs don't always work for all biting behaviors, that is because because time-outs should only be used when a bird is biting for attention---many many people misinterpret time-out as a catch-all punishment (and it is not)- Time-out cannot be applied to all scenarios because it can be rewarding (depending on behavioral function--escape, attention, seeking tangibles or escape). It can be used when the presence of others is making an aversive, attention-seeking behavior worse (e.g., kids laughing at a kid who cusses in class), or it can be used when the removal of an attention-source is aversive (e.g., When I bite, the very thing I desire goes away...I guess that doesn't work). Whatever the case, you also need to teach socially acceptable and functionally equivalent alternatives to the behavior that resulted in time-out.

Time-outs work if your bird bites for your attention and the bite results in the removal of that attention (no reaction, +physical distance from your bird, + removal of eye-contact). I do agree that there cannot be much lag-time, which is why you may just have to place your bird elsewhere and remove your attention (it isn't about getting the bird back to the cage, so much as it is cutting of access to the reinforcer that is craved---in an attention-seeker, that is your attention).

So, it isn't time-outs that suck, it's people's ability to analyse behavioral function (e.g., was the bite for attention, escape, tangibles or sensory). As was probably the case with the woman who tried time-outs for years and still had a biting bird--- if she never knew the reason behind the biting, then she shouldn't have assumed that time-outs were an appropriate response.

If your bird doesn't want to be picked up but you do it anyway and you are bitten, a time-out is actually going to reinforce/INCREASE the behavior (biting) because if you put the bird down in time-out, it is no longer being touched, and in a fearful bird, it has gotten what it wanted- escape. Sometimes, a bite means, I WANT TO GET AWAY FROM YOU- GET BACK- DON'T TOUCH----that behavior (fear-based) serves the function of escape, so a time-out (following a bite) that allows a fearful bird to get away from you is actually reinforcing---it rewards the behavior because it gratifies the function of the bite.

OutlawedSpirit · Apr 13, 2019

While I think the concept of a "start button" may work with a lot of other animals, it's not something I would rely on with parrots. They're just too smart for that. Growing up, we had an CAG that would raise her foot up in her cage and say step up when she wanted to be picked up. Or when she wanted to play games. Sometimes she would just step up and come out, other times she would step up with one foot, clamp down so you could pull away, then lunge down and bite the #&@* out of you. Then she would laugh and say no bite.

RobynnLynne · Jul 23, 2019

OutlawedSpirit said:
Sometimes she would just step up and come out, other times she would step up with one foot, clamp down so you could pull away, then lunge down and bite the #&@* out of you. Then she would laugh and say no bite.

I just got tricked by my newly adopted parrot (5 wks). He's been begging me and offering his foot but I have been hesitant and slow.

So, today I swallowed my fear and offered my hand to him step up whilst he was begging me. I knew he would reach for my hand for balance, but instead of stepping up, he went nasty and decided to sink into my hand and then bit down harder.

Time for more reading and training...for me!

chris-md · Jul 23, 2019

Yeah, the leading with the beak thing? Unnecessary. Always have them communicate to you their intentions. Lead with foot? Step up. Beak forward? Bite. Don’t let them do the beak as a third foot thing.

RobynnLynne · Jul 23, 2019

chris-md said:
Don’t let them do the beak as a third foot thing.

Thank you! I didn't know this and thought to expect it. As I said... have a lot to learn!

chris-md · Jul 23, 2019

Sure! Most people sort of accept it, but they can easy be trained to offer their foot for step up. Any leaning in with the beak when you hand approaches is NOT rewarded with a step up. The “third leg” is unnecessary if communication is on point.

RobynnLynne · Jul 23, 2019

chris-md said:
Any leaning in with the beak when you hand approaches is NOT rewarded with a step up. The “third leg” is unnecessary if communication is on point.

This provides a turning point in my perspective and understanding. Especially working with Mr. Sunshine, since this guy has been through so much. I really want to provide him consistency and trust.Thank you very much!

Ellie777Australia · Jul 23, 2019

chris-md said:
Sure! Most people sort of accept it, but they can easy be trained to offer their foot for step up. Any leaning in with the beak when you hand approaches is NOT rewarded with a step up. The “third leg” is unnecessary if communication is on point.

Thanks for this excellent reminder chris-md. I have been so used to Ellie that I just became nonchalant with our new rescue Bertie who has only been with us for 3 weeks. I didn't watch the beak forward (3rd leg) and received my first bloody bite two days ago.

chris-md · Jul 23, 2019

Sure! It’s just one extra layer of protection to avoid bites. I’ve been the victim of the OPs situation, request step up only to be bit. Many of us are!

It’s all about establishing communication - intent.

Flboy · Jul 24, 2019

RobynnLynne said:
OutlawedSpirit said:

Sometimes she would just step up and come out, other times she would step up with one foot, clamp down so you could pull away, then lunge down and bite the #&@* out of you. Then she would laugh and say no bite.

Click to expand...

I just got tricked by my newly adopted parrot (5 wks). He's been begging me and offering his foot but I have been hesitant and slow.

So, today I swallowed my fear and offered my hand to him step up whilst he was begging me. I knew he would reach for my hand for balance, but instead of stepping up, he went nasty and decided to sink into my hand and then bit down harder.

Time for more reading and training...for me!

In this case, I don’t believe he was being nasty! You are both new and hesitant!
So, today he swallowed his fear and offered his foot to step up. In the middle of it, he went into overload!

Ellie777Australia · Jul 24, 2019

Flboy said:
RobynnLynne said:

OutlawedSpirit said:

...He's been begging me and offering his foot but I have been hesitant and slow. So, today I swallowed my fear and offered my hand to him step up whilst he was begging me. I knew he would reach for my hand for balance, but instead of stepping up, he went nasty and decided to sink into my hand and then bit down harder.

Click to expand...

In this case, I don’t believe he was being nasty! You are both new and hesitant!
So, today he swallowed his fear and offered his foot to step up. In the middle of it, he went into overload!

Click to expand...

What an excellent perspective David.

wrench13 · Jul 24, 2019

Parrots are their own persosn,and you have to respect that. Salty and I trick train every night, but some nights he might refuse a given trick, like crawling thru alength of PVCpipe, or others, and some ntes,occasionally, he just is nt into training at all. You got to respect that. I know the next night he will be his usual , eager, hopping from trick to trick self. Other nights I am beat and will only offer to do some easy hand tricks, and he is OK with that too. We have sucha good relationship, we both know that we will connecct the next day. LOL, I raised my kids the same way,and they turned out pretty well too.

RobynnLynne · Jul 24, 2019

Flboy said:
RobynnLynne said:

OutlawedSpirit said:

In this case, I don’t believe he was being nasty! You are both new and hesitant!
So, today he swallowed his fear and offered his foot to step up. In the middle of it, he went into overload!

Click to expand...

Thank you. That makes sense. We are both new to this; 6 weeks on Sunday! Plus, this sweetheart has been betrayed and re-homed a number of times. He has far more reason to be hesitant than I can imagine.

He got me good and hard...punctured the top and bottom of my right index finger. I was stunned. I instinctively pulled away and he almost fell off his perch which made me feel even worse. He has a bad foot and balance is more of a challenge for him.

I turned and walked away calmly to the bathroom while the blood poured, LOL.

After I stopped the bleeding, bandaged my finger and patched my pride (about 20 minutes later) I went back with a smile and did a little target training with him.

He loves the target training and is more excited about learning and praise (almost) than he is the treats.

Maybe because I didn't make a deal about it or hold a grudge he let me scratch his head through his cage afterwards. He let me do that the third day I had him, but turned and lunged at me out of nowhere. I hadn't tried again tho he offered me his head...same as with his foot.

I am not sure but it seems like he wants to trust me but gets afraid. Do birds have 'flashbacks' of bad treatment from prior owners and experiences?

Thanks to all the wisdom I've gleaned on this forum I think I did a good recovery??

Click to expand...

Ellie777Australia · Jul 24, 2019

RobynnLynne said:
Flboy said:

RobynnLynne said:

Thank you. That makes sense. We are both new to this; 6 weeks on Sunday! Plus, this sweetheart has been betrayed and re-homed a number of times. He has far more reason to be hesitant than I can imagine.

He got me good and hard...punctured the top and bottom of my right index finger. I was stunned. I instinctively pulled away and he almost fell off his perch which made me feel even worse. He has a bad foot and balance is more of a challenge for him.

I turned and walked away calmly to the bathroom while the blood poured, LOL.

After I stopped the bleeding, bandaged my finger and patched my pride (about 20 minutes later) I went back with a smile and did a little target training with him.

He loves the target training and is more excited about learning and praise (almost) than he is the treats.

Maybe because I didn't make a deal about it or hold a grudge he let me scratch his head through his cage afterwards. He let me do that the third day I had him, but turned and lunged at me out of nowhere. I hadn't tried again tho he offered me his head...same as with his foot.

I am not sure but it seems like he wants to trust me but gets afraid. Do birds have 'flashbacks' of bad treatment from prior owners and experiences?

Thanks to all the wisdom I've gleaned on this forum I think I did a good recovery??

Click to expand...

Well done RobynnLynne. I do believe that our rescued fids do have flashbacks so we have to be extra vigilant and alert because 'normal' cuing could have nightmarish responses.

Sometimes there are sad moments. For instance, our Bertie (with us 3 weeks now) says a certain few words and you know he is repeating something said to him. The words and the tone that he uses makes me want to cry. I keep reassuring him that he is a 'good boy' and 'mommy loves him'.

Keep up the great work.

Click to expand...

RobynnLynne · Jul 24, 2019

Ellie777Australia said:
RobynnLynne said:

Flboy said:

Well done RobynnLynne. I do believe that our rescued fids do have flashbacks so we have to be extra vigilant and alert because 'normal' cuing could have nightmarish responses.

Sometimes there are sad moments. For instance, our Bertie (with us 3 weeks now) says a certain few words and you know he is repeating something said to him. The words and the tone that he uses makes me want to cry. I keep reassuring him that he is a 'good boy' and 'mommy loves him'.

Keep up the great work.

Click to expand...

Oh, Ellie777...that is heartbreaking. I do believe love and consistency will show our feathered babies what unconditional love is supposed to be like.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Click to expand...

charmedbyekkie · Jul 25, 2019

wrench13 said:
Parrots are their own persosn,and you have to respect that. Salty and I trick train every night, but some nights he might refuse a given trick, like crawling thru alength of PVCpipe, or others, and some ntes,occasionally, he just is nt into training at all. You got to respect that. I know the next night he will be his usual , eager, hopping from trick to trick self. Other nights I am beat and will only offer to do some easy hand tricks, and he is OK with that too. We have sucha good relationship, we both know that we will connecct the next day. LOL, I raised my kids the same way,and they turned out pretty well too.

You are far more forgiving than I am :'(

One night Cairo was so hormonal he didn't want to recall (almost unheard of for this little guy who would even recall when angry at me) - I turned to my partner and said that I was so hesitant to fly him outside again.

For the most part, I don't mind if he's not in the mood for tricks. He normally loves his evening sessions, but sometimes in public he's a bit reluctant and I just let him be. I have off days too

But recall is something I'm terrified about not being consistent in.

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Bonding with my new Green Cheek

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