Shoulder training for my YNA

Ira7 · Mar 4, 2020

I think he’s perfect, and don’t care if he has this freaky aversion to sitting on my shoulder, or even my lap and legs.

But I’ll kill myself if I can’t get him onto my shoulder and sitting on my lap and legs.

Why would a YNA who is a TOTAL angel on the hand, not able to relax for this?

I guess I know the answer...slow, persistent training...but it just seems so weird that at 9 months, that shoulder sitting is something he wants nothing to do with.

chris-md · Mar 4, 2020

Not so fast. The “shoulder parrot” is a hyperbolized myth. Many of us, I’d wager a majority, don’t let the birds on the shoulder because they have proven can’t be trusted and present some manner of risk. Shoulder is a location reserved for the best behaved birds, who step up and step off without hesitation, and those who have never bitten the face. A lot of birds self select out of shoulder privileges because of this.

Birds who have bitten the face even once and Fearful birds should NEVER be allowed on a shoulder.

Your bird is fearful of the shoulder - high potential for a bite, and not something to be messed with.

If your bird has an aversion to your shoulder, I’d recommend you allow it to stay that way. It’s better all around.

Don’t put so much value on it, there are far more important things to teach, like recall flight and targeting.

Ira7 · Mar 4, 2020

chris-md said:
Not so fast. The “shoulder parrot” is a hyperbolized myth. Many of us, I’d wager a majority, don’t let the birds on the shoulder because they have proven can’t be trusted and present some manner of risk. Shoulder is a location reserved for the best behaved birds, who step up and step off without hesitation, and those who have never bitten the face. A lot of birds self select out of shoulder privileges because of this.

Birds who have bitten the face even once and Fearful birds should NEVER be allowed on a shoulder.

Your bird is fearful of the shoulder - high potential for a bite, and not something to be messed with.

If your bird has an aversion to your shoulder, I’d recommend you allow it to stay that way. It’s better all around.

Don’t put so much value on it, there are far more important things to teach, like recall flight and targeting.

I don’t buy that.

Parrots have been happily sitting on human shoulders for hundreds of years. And fear of a bite?

You mean I can have a parrot with no fear of a bite?

I will never understand the argument against shoulder sitting, and simply don’t accept it.

charmedbyekkie · Mar 5, 2020

Cairo shoulder sits on me - he obeys me without hesitation when on my shoulder and does not bite me (except for when he is aggressive with my partner and I intervene). But I am strict - the moment Cairo opens his beak near my face (even if it is to nibble or preen), I remove him, so he has learned not to open his beak near my face.

Cairo, however, does not have shoulder rights with my partner. He has bitten my partner's face without warning, cutting him open. He does not readily step off his shoulder when my partner asks, often biting my partner's hands. We avoid giving him opportunity to reach my partner's shoulder, and I have to do a lot of body language communication to prevent escalation the situation and safely remove Cairo.

Other birds I know displacement bite and often displacement bite when on a shoulder. Majority of birds are not bite pressure trained either. I have seen the damage a beak does to a face - saw one photo of a lady whose eyelid was torn almost completely off by her ekkie. All it takes is for something in the vicinity to upset the bird and they lash out at the nearest object - you. So yes, I do 100% agree that certain birds should not be shoulder birds, especially for certain people.

Birdman666 (resident bird expert who worked with many members on training their birds and working through behavioural issues) explicitly wrote:

But she's bite pressure trained and does not displacement bite. NO BIRD should be a shoulder bird unless these prerequisites are met!

So do be sure to train that in a variety of situations before pushing the shoulder training.

Now, my feeling is - give him time. If he doesn't feel comfortable on shoulders, why force him? Just so you can walk around with him on your shoulder? A bird forced into an uncomfortable situation will often react in ways that humans do not predict.

And 9 months is not a lot of time for a parrot. It took almost 18 months for our ekkie to be ok with standing on my lap for 10 seconds. Just 10 seconds on lap standing, and it took 18 months for him to trust enough.

Sure, right now you can do a lot more with your bird than you could 9 months ago. But give it more time. Don't force it. And accept that some things some people are just uncomfortable with. You wouldn't force someone who dislikes rollercoasters to go on a rollercoaster - why force a parrot to do something that doesn't benefit them in an obvious way (to them)?

chris-md · Mar 5, 2020

Ira - facts are stubborn things, they don’t care if first time parrot owners “buy them” or not; which is why you come here for advice - because you have things to learn. Charmed just very eloquently highlighted a few reasons herself above why shoulder privileges are restricted.

It’s your face, your risk. Just understand “shoulder training” isn’t and never has been a thing. Either the bird behaves or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t behave, it doesn’t get shoulder. You’ll learn soon enough which camp you fall into.

clark_conure · Mar 5, 2020

I CANT GET MY BIRDS OFF MY SHOULDERS!!!! They grab a pellet and wait to eat till they are on my shoulder. When we can fix that I'm into it.

I sort of envy you.....50/50.

Ira7 · Mar 5, 2020

charmedbyekkie said:
Cairo shoulder sits on me - he obeys me without hesitation when on my shoulder and does not bite me (except for when he is aggressive

Now, my feeling is - give him time. If he doesn't feel comfortable on shoulders, why force him? Just so you can walk around with him on your shoulder? A bird forced into an uncomfortable situation will often react in ways that humans do not predict.

And 9 months is not a lot of time for a parrot. It took almost 18 months for our ekkie to be ok with standing on my lap for 10 seconds. Just 10 seconds on lap standing, and it took 18 months for him to trust enough.

Sure, right now you can do a lot more with your bird than you could 9 months ago. But give it more time. Don't force it. And accept that some things some people are just uncomfortable with. You wouldn't force someone who dislikes rollercoasters to go on a rollercoaster - why force a parrot to do something that doesn't benefit them in an obvious way (to them)?

You nailed it. I wasn’t in a RUSH to train him for this, but it’s definitely a goal.

And drumroll, please...

Today, he sat on my lap for a bout 10 seconds, but when he started looking nervous, I immediately put him on hand to relax him.

Baby steps.

Damn, I love this bird.

Ira7 · Mar 5, 2020

charmedbyekkie said:
Cairo shoulder sits on me - he obeys me without hesitation when on my shoulder and does not bite me (except for when he is aggressive with my partner and I intervene). But I am strict - the moment Cairo opens his beak near my face (even if it is to nibble or preen), I remove him, so he has learned not to open his beak near my face.

Cairo, however, does not have shoulder rights with my partner. He has bitten my partner's face without warning, cutting him open. He does not readily step off his shoulder when my partner asks, often biting my partner's hands. We avoid giving him opportunity to reach my partner's shoulder, and I have to do a lot of body language communication to prevent escalation the situation and safely remove Cairo.

Other birds I know displacement bite and often displacement bite when on a shoulder. Majority of birds are not bite pressure trained either. I have seen the damage a beak does to a face - saw one photo of a lady whose eyelid was torn almost completely off by her ekkie. All it takes is for something in the vicinity to upset the bird and they lash out at the nearest object - you. So yes, I do 100% agree that certain birds should not be shoulder birds, especially for certain people.

Birdman666 (resident bird expert who worked with many members on training their birds and working through behavioural issues) explicitly wrote:

But she's bite pressure trained and does not displacement bite. NO BIRD should be a shoulder bird unless these prerequisites are met!

Click to expand...

So do be sure to train that in a variety of situations before pushing the shoulder training.

Now, my feeling is - give him time. If he doesn't feel comfortable on shoulders, why force him? Just so you can walk around with him on your shoulder? A bird forced into an uncomfortable situation will often react in ways that humans do not predict.

And 9 months is not a lot of time for a parrot. It took almost 18 months for our ekkie to be ok with standing on my lap for 10 seconds. Just 10 seconds on lap standing, and it took 18 months for him to trust enough.

Sure, right now you can do a lot more with your bird than you could 9 months ago. But give it more time. Don't force it. And accept that some things some people are just uncomfortable with. You wouldn't force someone who dislikes rollercoasters to go on a rollercoaster - why force a parrot to do something that doesn't benefit them in an obvious way (to them)?

chris-md said:
Ira - facts are stubborn things, they don’t care if first time parrot owners “buy them” or not; which is why you come here for advice - because you have things to learn. Charmed just very eloquently highlighted a few reasons herself above why shoulder privileges are restricted.

It’s your face, your risk. Just understand “shoulder training” isn’t and never has been a thing. Either the bird behaves or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t behave, it doesn’t get shoulder. You’ll learn soon enough which camp you fall into.

I have zero reason to believe there’s any danger with this bird on my shoulder. I live with this bird.

How can you tell me there’s a danger?

chris-md · Mar 5, 2020

How can you tell me there’s danger

An over abundance of parrot and dog training Experience, kid. And you’re being told variations on the same thing I’m saying by everyone who has posted on your thread.

But By all means, believe what you will.

Ira7 · Mar 5, 2020

chris-md said:
How can you tell me there’s danger

Click to expand...

An over abundance of parrot and dog training Experience, kid. And you’re being told variations on the same thing I’m saying by everyone who has posted on your thread.

But By all means, believe what you will.

I think I will believe the dozens of parrots I’ve seen happily sitting on their owners’ shoulders that didn’t disfigure them with bites! Like my dear departed Grey.

Seriously, dude:

To take a stand that training a bird to sit on your shoulder is ridiculous is..well...kind of ridiculous.

I definitely believe that what I believe is based on fact, and since you said above believe what I will, I’m gonna do that!

You said that, right? Believe what I will?

charmedbyekkie · Mar 5, 2020

Wah, no need to aggro - we all have differences in how we handle our birds. Chris is just saying why you should be careful and use some caution. Sweethearts aren't always sweethearts - everybody has their bad days, even birds.

Sightings of birds on shoulders does not negate the fact that people with sweetheart birds have gotten bitten with said birds on their shoulders.

There are parrots sitting on shoulders, yes. There are also people who have gotten bitten by their birds sitting on their shoulders. Both truths can exist at the same time.

If you want to train your bird to sit on shoulder, no one is going to stop you - we aren't wherever you live. But people will feel it is their duty as a fellow human being to warn you about potential dangers. That's all.

With any bird, there is a potential danger it will bite. And with a bird in such close proximity to your face, there is a potential danger a bite to your face will do significant, permanent damage.

Up to you lor.

wrench13 · Mar 6, 2020

Hi there, and welcome. The relationship between man and parrot must be about trust. Its the one thing that allows parrots to even begin to interface with us. If a bird trusts you not, well in nature they just fly away. Companion parrots usually do not have that luxury, so we must forge a trusting relationship with our birds. If your YNA is still not trusting you enough to sit on your lap or even go onto your shoulder, the relationship is not quite fully formed. I suggest you work on trust building activities with your 'nape and work your way up to lap and shoulder sitting. Clicker training or even trick training is a great way to build up trust, games like real estate agent, towel games etc are also good. He has to trust you to the point where you can handle him like all over, rough play with him and in general be un-fearfull of you and your hands.

You'll notice that my Salty is on my shoulder in my sig pic. He is a small 320gr Amazon with a golden disposition, but even he will nip me during season mating time, because they all kinda loose their minds during that time. He stays off the shoulder during that time. And Salty HATES to be on my lap for more than 5 seconds even til today, its just not his thing. Your 'nape has not even gone thru puberty yet, and 'napes are part of the Hot 3, who can really get nutty during that time. I would not be so eager to get a hormone crazed Yellow Nape in close proximity to my face and neck until he has at least passed thru puberty.

He's going to be with you a LONG time (hopefully), so you have lots of time to acclimate him to your shoulder.

The members here are just offering you the benefit of their experience, some have been parront for decades and decades. You obviously love your 'nape. Think about how you will feet twords him if he takes a chunk out of your ear or face. You'll never look at him the same way and your relationship will deteriorate, even tho you can say now that it wont. We are looking out for both of you.

saxguy64 · Mar 6, 2020

My two cents- why not just pay attention to your bird's preference? My current two are shoulder surfers. Tucker, I trust 100% without fail. He periodically gets a little over demanding for kisses, and grabby, but always super gentle about it. That still ends shoulder time. Baxter, more like 98% with healthy respect for the beak, and always paying attention to her body language and mood. Before I got her, she did send a refuge volunteer to the ER with a bite completely through the lower lip. Tried for kisses and missed her warning. Now, my boy Patches had zero intention of being on the shoulder. He was much happier to hang out on my forearm or wrist, always facing me. It was nice. He left my hands free to do whatever I needed, mostly prepare his food. That boy could put away some groceries! Anyway, in his way too short year with me, he never, ever was comfortable on the shoulder, and on the rare occasion that he climbed up there, it was always to gain a higher jump off point for a flight attempt. (He was a plucker, and couldn't fly very well with no tail)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Scott · Mar 6, 2020

Ira7 said:
chris-md said:

Not so fast. The “shoulder parrot” is a hyperbolized myth. Many of us, I’d wager a majority, don’t let the birds on the shoulder because they have proven can’t be trusted and present some manner of risk. Shoulder is a location reserved for the best behaved birds, who step up and step off without hesitation, and those who have never bitten the face. A lot of birds self select out of shoulder privileges because of this.

Birds who have bitten the face even once and Fearful birds should NEVER be allowed on a shoulder.

Your bird is fearful of the shoulder - high potential for a bite, and not something to be messed with.

If your bird has an aversion to your shoulder, I’d recommend you allow it to stay that way. It’s better all around.

Don’t put so much value on it, there are far more important things to teach, like recall flight and targeting.

Click to expand...

I don’t buy that.

Parrots have been happily sitting on human shoulders for hundreds of years. And fear of a bite?

You mean I can have a parrot with no fear of a bite?

I will never understand the argument against shoulder sitting, and simply don’t accept it.

You've received sage advice from experienced members advocating for safety and long term relationship with your YNA. Fact is parrot bites potentially require ER attention, multiple stitches, and disfigurement partially mitigated by superb plastic surgeon. Experience is the best teacher, suggest you Google "parrot bites to face."

Scott · Mar 6, 2020

I have personal experience with a biting BFA. Gonzo was our family's first bird circa 1985, a time of minimal community knowledge. He was the perfect handling bird until puberty, then became aggressive. Developed a nasty habit of flying to the shoulder and biting the jugular! At that point we ceased allowing him access to sensitive areas. Over the years I've worked with him to eradicate such behaviors to no avail. Gonzo can be handled minimally but clearly has no affinity for close contact. I accept him as a handsome and entertaining talker on his own terms.

GaleriaGila · Mar 7, 2020

Ira... I appreciate your determination and obvious true love for this bird. You've gotten some very intelligent, experience-based, sensible tips.

I appreciate our wonderful members' insightful, tireless, patient, caring input. Y'all make this place great. Ira, join me in a big thank-you?

Shoulder training for my YNA

Ira7

Banned

chris-md

Well-known member

Ira7

Banned

charmedbyekkie

New member

chris-md

Well-known member

clark_conure

Well-known member

Ira7

Banned

Ira7

Banned

chris-md

Well-known member

Ira7

Banned

charmedbyekkie

New member

wrench13

Moderator

saxguy64

Moderator

Scott

Supporting Member

Scott

Supporting Member

GaleriaGila

Well-known member

Success!

Actually teaching a macaw to step up?

Most Reactions

Similar threads

Latest posts