Budgie with chronic chlamydia and hepatitis

Ivan.Vanca

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Hello. Does anybody have an experience with chronic carrying chlamydiosis at budgies? My female budgie Erwinka has chronic hepatitis probably due to chlamydia. In the past I was treating by enrofloxacin, doxycycline, azitromicin... I went on injections, but she vomited after 4. injection. Like some budgies would not be able to get rid off chlamydia. I am not sure whether the stress from me and my emotions can activate chlamydia, or what.... Thanks.
P:S: On budgie whisperers I was told that "Fluoroquinolones like Enrofloxacin are the most harmful. The addition of the fluoride molecule to the quinolones means it gets straight into the cells to an extent other antibiotics can't. Problem being that while this can heal stubborn infections it can also cause immense damage, lethal damage. They're not drugs to abuse or mass dose entire groups with 'just in case' - that's how you create 'superbugs'"
But I did not get any alternative. Maybe more sunlight and less stress, but I am too lazy to do that. So, any other suggestion? THanks.
I got some reply on facebook ( budgies whisperers site ) from one women. She told me this ( sorry, it is longer ) :

We can cause harm in our efforts to keep them safe, and when we are too heavily using medications generation after generation, we can accidentally breed out their immune strength, and the heavy medicine use hides it. Until it progresses so far it's a problem despite the drugs. Then they get sick and die no matter what drugs you use.
The drugs help infections but can't replace the immune system; if the birds don't have the immune systems to fight infection and heal, there's really nothing you can do to save them. Breeding for stronger immune systems is the only thing you can do for that.
Do you do breed, not just keep as pets that aren't bred, then the best thing you can do (long term) is to breed those which are strongest. They are the ones which don't need your help to survive.
Immune suppression is the main cause of chlamydia taking over, and the immune suppression is often from another cause such as fungal toxins (mycotoxins) in feed. In pelleted or processed feeds it can impossible to see, smell, or taste.
It would be very strange if your whole flock were equally susceptible to chlamydia, and unless they're all very closely related (so, suspect inbreeding depression) then I'd be checking for environmental issues. Lack of sunlight is a factor for sure. That definitely needs remedying somehow.

There isn't any tissue FQs cannot harm because while they're not considered directly toxic to the liver or kidneys, they have systemic effects that differ according to the individual genetic makeup of the patient.
The most common injury is connective tissue damage and mitochondrial toxicity. The connective tissues can usually heal themselves given time and good nutrition but when the mitochondria are damaged the organism simply doesn't have the energy to heal.
Doxycycline is safer for the same reason it's less potent. It's not got the cell-penetrating power the FQs get from the fluoride.

I've had weak immune systems in my birds and tried many treatments. Ultimately while some work for a while, I found they can just prolong the inevitable and make a weak, sick animal suffer for a very long time before dying anyway.
So I breed for strength and it's the most powerful tool I have to keep them healthy. It's more important than good feed, clean water, shelter, avoiding stress, etc.
I will try to give some suggestions to help anyway.
If you're not supplementing a supportive or therapeutic dose of vitamin A, you should. The amount normally in feed (maintenance dose) isn't enough for diseased birds whose vit A needs can be many, many times higher. The body uses vit A for many things including healing and defense of mucosa. When sick it's rapidly depleted.
I'd add vinegar to their water, not the water with the medicines in it of course. I use apple cider vinegar, and a higher dose than usual. About a quarter of a cup of ACV per liter of water. The acetic acid in it (which you can buy separately if you prefer) is a topical fungicide and biofilm killer, so helps destroy difficult infections.
 

Laurasea

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Unfortunately, my rescued budgie did bring chlamydia to my flock, and despite intense prolonged antibiotic treatment, cleaning. It is here to stay with relapsing infections.


My CAV is having me treatment a pulse of doxycline evet six months or sooner if need ...possibly forever . She also said difficult to clear budgies of this. Sucks for us...ugh.
 

GaleriaGila

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In case you'd like second opinions at some point...

Certified Avian Vets
If none are near you...
Avian Veterinarians
In my opinion, any of the vets listed here should be better than a regular vet.

Good luck to you.
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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Unfortunately, my rescued budgie did bring chlamydia to my flock, and despite intense prolonged antibiotic treatment, cleaning. It is here to stay with relapsing infections.


My CAV is having me treatment a pulse of doxycline evet six months or sooner if need ...possibly forever . She also said difficult to clear budgies of this. Sucks for us...ugh.
Thanks for your reply, but sorry, honestly I did not understand your poing, too hard for me to understand.... Does not matter.
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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In case you'd like second opinions at some point...

Certified Avian Vets
If none are near you...
Avian Veterinarians
In my opinion, any of the vets listed here should be better than a regular vet.

Good luck to you.
I have an avian vet in Czech republic. On facebook bugie whisperers site I was recommended by one woman to support imunity, vitamine A, apple cider vinegar, but also she recommended me to use levamizol and meloxicam to my budgie. But they are strong, and meloxicam charges kidneys and levamizol is against parasites, so I ask here if anybody is experienced. LAurasea s words of cleaning and the other sentence I can not translate, do not know the meaning.
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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Unfortunately, my rescued budgie did bring chlamydia to my flock, and despite intense prolonged antibiotic treatment, cleaning. It is here to stay with relapsing infections.


My CAV is having me treatment a pulse of doxycline evet six months or sooner if need ...possibly forever . She also said difficult to clear budgies of this. Sucks for us...ugh.
Who said difficult to clear budgies from that? Sorry, is it possible to write it some other way? I do not understand you.
 

Laurasea

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Sorry Ivan that we have language issues. You do amazing with English.

Dealing with chronic health issues are frustrating, as I am also now doing so. I Commend you for always seeking more knowledge!! That is great. But as we have private messages over this topic many times over the years. I've shared all I know in your older threads on this topic. We have also posted about this in EllenD threads and other threads. I don't feel I can ever satisfy you. I am not a veterinarian , there are limits to my knowledge.

I will try and briefly go over points.

This is my thread, its about Dealing with a flock outbreak of chlamydia. Through out the thread are links to articles, nursing, and research on medicine.

Chlamydia is a bacterial infection, there are many strains of this bacteria, some are more potent or deadly. Chlamydia can go dormant and hide in organs in the birds body. Then even years later break as an active infection again. Or it can persist as a chronic infection. It can also be an acute and deadly infection especially in young birds. Or if a burd is exposed to a new strain, or a potent strain. Or it can become active and acute if a burd has other health issues and stress on their body.

Chlamydia bacteria can persist for months or even longer in the environment. It can aerosol from dried feces. Floating around and hide in the environment. It is very contagious. If one bird has it , then all the birds have it. Even if they don't become actively sick. Every time one bird becomes actively sick in the flock they will shed large numbers of the bacteria and infect all the birds again. Even if they had cleared the infection before in their own or with treatment. Some birds become carrier, they shed the bacteria intermittent, even if they never seem sick. When the infection is dormant ( hidden in body) the bird will not test positive. Relapses are common.

When you have an outbreak it takes minimum of 45 days of treatment to try and clear it from the birds body. You have to treat every single bird at the same time, even if they don't seem sick.
During that time, you have to do massive cleaning, over and over. I was told to spray everything with dilute bleach, before I started cleaning, to help prevent it being spread around by air. Change air filters weekly in my home. Change vacuum filters after every cleaning. Bleach my cleaning supplies. To try and rid the environment of this bacteria. And prevent being infected again. A dirt floor aviary, and wooden nest box's would make that impossible.

My CAV who has access that we do not to veterinarian medical journals and research, ect. Informed me that budgies are difficult to clear if this infection. If treated in water. They don't drink as often as other burds so it's hard to get proper blood levels of the antibiotics in their system, and maintain those blood levels during the entire treatment. Trying to handle them daily and give by injection, or by mouth directly can be to stressful on them. It was for mine, they lost a lot if weight, the medicine became like glue in their feathers. Their little tiny bodies can't take multiple injections . The infection may do better at hiding in their organs. My veterinarian told me, ideally not to keep budgies with other parrots. As their are other infections, viruses, that they can deal with but spread to other parrots and make them sick, she mentioned love birds as well. That's from her knowledge. You will have to do your own research or seek information from your own veterinarian on this if you want to dive deeper.

For me, this started with a wild bird type of chlamydia picked up by an escaped budgie. When I brought that burd into my home, unknowingly it spread to all my birds. Unfortunately it seems to be a very bad strain. When my burds melted, that little extra stress, allowed the infection to become active again in one or all. End result they all got sick and started loosing weight again. I treated them and all but my oldest bird Penny, quickly recovered. So my veterinarian is having me treat them every six months, even if no one seems sick. To keep it knocked down, at lower levels .

You also have much knowledge and experience. And your own veterinarian.

I have helped you and explained to the best if my abilities. I do not want to have endless conversations about it. I just don't have anything new to add. If I do I will share it.

I very much wish you and your flock the best. It is terrible and frustrating to deal with this.
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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Sorry Ivan that we have language issues. You do amazing with English.

Dealing with chronic health issues are frustrating, as I am also now doing so. I Commend you for always seeking more knowledge!! That is great. But as we have private messages over this topic many times over the years. I've shared all I know in your older threads on this topic. We have also posted about this in EllenD threads and other threads. I don't feel I can ever satisfy you. I am not a veterinarian , there are limits to my knowledge.

I will try and briefly go over points.

This is my thread, its about Dealing with a flock outbreak of chlamydia. Through out the thread are links to articles, nursing, and research on medicine.

Chlamydia is a bacterial infection, there are many strains of this bacteria, some are more potent or deadly. Chlamydia can go dormant and hide in organs in the birds body. Then even years later break as an active infection again. Or it can persist as a chronic infection. It can also be an acute and deadly infection especially in young birds. Or if a burd is exposed to a new strain, or a potent strain. Or it can become active and acute if a burd has other health issues and stress on their body.

Chlamydia bacteria can persist for months or even longer in the environment. It can aerosol from dried feces. Floating around and hide in the environment. It is very contagious. If one bird has it , then all the birds have it. Even if they don't become actively sick. Every time one bird becomes actively sick in the flock they will shed large numbers of the bacteria and infect all the birds again. Even if they had cleared the infection before in their own or with treatment. Some birds become carrier, they shed the bacteria intermittent, even if they never seem sick. When the infection is dormant ( hidden in body) the bird will not test positive. Relapses are common.

When you have an outbreak it takes minimum of 45 days of treatment to try and clear it from the birds body. You have to treat every single bird at the same time, even if they don't seem sick.
During that time, you have to do massive cleaning, over and over. I was told to spray everything with dilute bleach, before I started cleaning, to help prevent it being spread around by air. Change air filters weekly in my home. Change vacuum filters after every cleaning. Bleach my cleaning supplies. To try and rid the environment of this bacteria. And prevent being infected again. A dirt floor aviary, and wooden nest box's would make that impossible.

My CAV who has access that we do not to veterinarian medical journals and research, ect. Informed me that budgies are difficult to clear if this infection. If treated in water. They don't drink as often as other burds so it's hard to get proper blood levels of the antibiotics in their system, and maintain those blood levels during the entire treatment. Trying to handle them daily and give by injection, or by mouth directly can be to stressful on them. It was for mine, they lost a lot if weight, the medicine became like glue in their feathers. Their little tiny bodies can't take multiple injections . The infection may do better at hiding in their organs. My veterinarian told me, ideally not to keep budgies with other parrots. As their are other infections, viruses, that they can deal with but spread to other parrots and make them sick, she mentioned love birds as well. That's from her knowledge. You will have to do your own research or seek information from your own veterinarian on this if you want to dive deeper.

For me, this started with a wild bird type of chlamydia picked up by an escaped budgie. When I brought that burd into my home, unknowingly it spread to all my birds. Unfortunately it seems to be a very bad strain. When my burds melted, that little extra stress, allowed the infection to become active again in one or all. End result they all got sick and started loosing weight again. I treated them and all but my oldest bird Penny, quickly recovered. So my veterinarian is having me treat them every six months, even if no one seems sick. To keep it knocked down, at lower levels .

You also have much knowledge and experience. And your own veterinarian.

I have helped you and explained to the best if my abilities. I do not want to have endless conversations about it. I just don't have anything new to add. If I do I will share it.

I very much wish you and your flock the best. It is terrible and frustrating to deal with this.
Thank you, but I will reply inf I can. I did not understand some words, like burden, strain,. OR this : Or if a burd is exposed to a new strain, or a potent strain.
Ok, so I understand your point, I hope no bird of yours died on chlamydia, but honestly.. I am not going to do all that cleaning and changes filters ( ??? which filters ), etc... This really is not possible here. The birds are together... and I do not think this would help.
My vet told me to treat only the sick one, but as you told, it is right to treat them all. Ok, but recently I stopped it after 4. injection... the budgie started to vomit.
My question is if it is good now to support the immune system with somethink ( i do not know with what ), or to start to add doxycycline into the water of all budgies, despite they do not drink enough of meds, like you say... I do not know.
SUrely I will not put the budgie to euthanasia like some idiot recommended. Or just heal all the budgies after each outbreak?
Thanks for you reply, I will check the link.
But, also.. those recommendation from facebook to use levamizol and meloxicam... they are toxic to the body.
 

Laurasea

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If this was me, yes I would do doxy to water fir all birds. My vet had me do fir 2 weeks . Then I will do again in six months, unless one gets symptoms, then I will at all again.

Vets can have different ways of treating. There could be a time when I only treat those who are sick. Since we have both tried multiple times to clear it from our flocks. We now have a different situation than most.

One of my birds Penny, started to regurgitate. So my vet had me feed plain yogurt once a day. And gave a prescription for nyststin to treat yeast overgrowth. As that can happen with extended antibiotics. Doxy is much safer than other meds. Much safer to do longer treating with it.

Just like there are coronavirus mutations, that are worse. This bacteria has strains that are worse. That are harder to get rid of, and make them sicker. Some chlamydia strains are easier for the birds to get over. I wish that had been true for both of us.

The first time, Penny came very close to death, and my green cheek came close. 2 of my birds lost a little weight but never seemed sick at all.

This time 2 budgies git sick first with nasal discharge and loose stool. All the other burds lost weight. I treated and all but Penny git better really fast. Penny was getting better, but then regurgitate stopped eating, lost weight. So had to treat fir fungus/yeast. Now no regurgitate, and is eating and gaining weight back slowly.

Trying to clean the best you can, will lower the number if bacteria in the environment.

If we lived in a perfect ideal world. We would both move our birds to a whole new building. Treat them, and have a whole cleaning staff. Meanwhile we would professionally clean our home, get all new everything. And after birds were treated bring them back. But even if we did that. This bacteria goes dormant and hide inside the burds body, and can make them sick again.

My advice. Cleaning. Either treat the whole flock with doxy, or treat the actively sick ones. If there is one that is always sick , move it to its own cage, far away from the others for life. Some individuals may be less able to fight off. And then they are always shedding the bacteria and increase tge likelihood tge rest will get sick.

But I understand. As I can't rehome 3 budgies that will get sick off and on to someone else. And I don't have a way to keep them separated either. So I will do as my vet advice, treat them all every six months. And watch closely, and weigh to see if I have to treat sooner than six months. I clean every day. I change filters every couple of weeks. We do the best we can.

This is why Quarantine is so important. Why getting vet check before adding to flock is so important. And even then if something is dormant it can show up later. There are worse infections out there. So I try and be thankful this is something that is manageable. In time , they may be able to overcome and not get sick... thats my hope
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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thanks for you reply. I do not know if to reply to those sentences which I did not understand.
IF I understood, you have your birds together and healing them together every 6 months for 45 days into the water. I hope they will all get better. I do not believe that using doxycycline made your birds to get yeasts and it caused another problems. Was it proven?
No, I will not separate that budgie. I have a suspicion that also the mother of this budgie is a chronic carrier. I would have a space for puting them separately, but not going to do that.
Cleaning their rooms every day, also not very possible. One budgie with some arthrosis is quaranted in a larger cage, and their poops could falled insice that, but not possible to clean that cage every day.
Also if we would have been living in an ideal world, I would not get my house cleaned due to chlamydia, probably not. I have been living chlamydia for more years probably and was found negative in my blood to have that.
GEt all new everything? I hope you are joking, Laurasea.
Sorry, I also did not understand this : "As I can't rehome 3 budgies that will get sick off and on to someone else."
Yes, vet check, but it happened that this budgie was found negative chlamydia in poops and blood and still had that.
Now this budgie of mine is visiting the bird box occassionally again.
And those recommendations of using meloxicam or levamizol to budgie to strenghten the immune system like one woman from Australia recommended me, that is... something like using invermectin to covid probably.
Can I ask you what supplements are you using to your birds for strenghten the immunity after antibiotics, etc? Thank you.
 

Laurasea

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I give yogurt. I think fresh veggies are the best way to boost immune system. I do not use supplements
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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LAurasea, do you give only organic veggies? it is hard to get them. Which do you give? CHicory, cucumber? I think cabbage family is not good. And Dandelion or chickweed is not easy to get here in clean areas, mainly during these times.
 

Laurasea

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No I don't do organic. O do wash everything.
I do Swiss chard, romaine, arugula, spinach, water cress , and some cabbage, and some dandelion greens. I'm trying to get seeds and grow my own dandelion greens. I do have a few pepper plants.

They get at some point nearly everything I can find that is considered parrot safe. But somethings are more common and easy to get, so cooked sweet potatoes, and cooked carrots, cooked butternut squash , celery, tomatoes, broccoli, cauliflower, peas, green beans, radish, peppers, Brussels sprouts, zucchini, fresh corn, ect.

Some boiled egg with shell for vit E and Vit B , and calcium.

My parakeets and parrots eat all of the above and more. I fo not make chop, or mince stuff up. I may cut down to 1 inch cubes , but mostly its hunks of stuff. The budgies do not have any issues
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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thanks, despite I did not understand the last 2 sentences... I am not for cooking. I would prefer sweet potato raw... and not cabbage family. trying to grow dandelion is almost impossible. I wish you a healthly flock and I hope no one of your budgies died during that chlamydia episode. Also I agree with you that those words about euthanasia are irresponsible.
 

parrotbob

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This is, unfortunately, exactly what overbreeding has brought us to. Poor genes, horrible immune systems and vastly deteriorated lifespans.
 
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Ivan.Vanca

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This is, unfortunately, exactly what overbreeding has brought us to. Poor genes, horrible immune systems and vastly deteriorated lifespans.
Ok, but this budgie was born at me. I know her mother is an albino budgie who also struggles with her health. Also had chlamydiosis when I bought her, recently megabacteria... and has some rupture problems with ovary way... still in the laying condition... but the father was perfectly healthy, despite he died on lymphoma of the liver and spleen.
 

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