Fixing Hormonal Production - When Does it Stop?

[pterry97]

Hi all,

Bobby my African grey has settled in very well into his new life with me. It’s been about two months, he transitioned from his seed diet onto a chop and pellet diet super easily within the first week of having him. With 12 hours day and night cycle, no hidey spots, full open access to the room in daytime (though he spends the majority of it on top of his cage - he isn’t much of an explorer) and no body petting - his life has really changed around for the better.

Is what I’d like to say, except for the fact that he’s so hormonal that any semblance of training has been impossible.

He hasn’t been bitey since the first week, so this isn’t an issue - the current issue is that he’s decided his sole purpose in life is to regurgitate for me at every waking moment. I can’t step into the room without him readying his crop. All attempts at touch stick training have been futile - even when touching the stick he will regurgitate simply because my hand is in sight. I can’t offer my hand without him trying to throw up on my fingers. He steps up onto my sleeve only to shoulder rush me and try and vomit on my neck and ears.

On the very small windows of success where he does touch the stick or step up to a perch on command, he won’t accept the treat, even though I know he loves them. One could argue that the reward is me except it’s been impossible to work around with this. I’m the only person in my home and don’t have anybody who visits who could act as a neutral body to initiate training - so because it’s always me present I literally can’t keep away to avoid the vomiting.

I know African greys start their breeding season around October - so it’s possible this is playing a part, do we know when this period ends? I feel as though I won’t ever be able to start training as planned until his hormones get under control, but have no idea how long it’s meant to take. I’m trying my best but he just has too much of an agenda currently for me to overcome to get on with training.

 

[SailBoat]

I elected not to count the number of times you used the word: Training! You are missing the reality and good fortune that your Grey has settled nicely. Most individuals that have brought a Grey into their home are still working on real basics. Your Grey will come-out of its cage, appears not to be cage dominance, step-up, will eat the much improved diet and many other things that others only pray for.

Yes, it is late Fall and well into hormonal season and that can play into much of what you are seeing. It is also important to remember that your Grey as been enjoying a much improved diet and the energy that brings to his body. To that point, check the contents of the Pellet that you are providing and how much Sugar is included, remember that Sugar has many names. Under common packaging requirements, how close it is listed to the top implies the amount of the volume it makes-up. Also, fruits contain sugars and they can vary as to how much, check those items as well. Higher levels of sugar in the diet can affect hormonal activities. FYI: Hormonal season can last for 8 to 10 weeks on the long side and the start date was reset to when you brought him into your home.

Hormonal season varies widely and is effected by more than Sleep Patterns. Understand that a Parrot placed in their cage to sleep does not assure they are in fact sleeping as the amount of light in the home and other activities (like sound) can keep them awake. That 12/12 hour system works, but it is based on a dark, silent home. It is a rare home that can achieve that goal.

Your Parrot as developed a strong bond with you and is displaying it. It is simple to state: Just say No, when provided, set the Grey down and turn you back for no more than a minute, or so. Turn back around and begin again. Remember that the longer between the turn-away and return the more likely the Grey is to miss the point of your turning-away. Will this work. No sure, Grey's are very bright and can elect to not play or provide different meaning. But it is worth trying.

Greys are very connect to our emotions and pick-on ours and as a result, you must mind your emotions while working with your Grey.

Your Greys biggest problem is your 'to-do-list and your time-line.' Drop your expectations to zero and enjoy each day as this Grey choose to be with you.

 

[pterry97]

I elected not to count the number of times you used the word: Training! You are missing the reality and good fortune that your Grey has settled nicely. Most individuals that have brought a Grey into their home are still working on real basics. Your Grey will come-out of its cage, appears not to be cage dominance, step-up, will eat the much improved diet and many other things that others only pray for.

Yes, it is late Fall and well into hormonal season and that can play into much of what you are seeing. It is also important to remember that your Grey as been enjoying a much improved diet and the energy that brings to his body. To that point, check the contents of the Pellet that you are providing and how much Sugar is included, remember that Sugar has many names. Under common packaging requirements, how close it is listed to the top implies the amount of the volume it makes-up. Also, fruits contain sugars and they can vary as to how much, check those items as well. Higher levels of sugar in the diet can affect hormonal activities. FYI: Hormonal season can last for 8 to 10 weeks on the long side and the start date was reset to when you brought him into your home.

Hormonal season varies widely and is effected by more than Sleep Patterns. Understand that a Parrot placed in their cage to sleep does not assure they are in fact sleeping as the amount of light in the home and other activities (like sound) can keep them awake. That 12/12 hour system works, but it is based on a dark, silent home. It is a rare home that can achieve that goal.

Your Parrot as developed a strong bond with you and is displaying it. It is simple to state: Just say No, when provided, set the Grey down and turn you back for no more than a minute, or so. Turn back around and begin again. Remember that the longer between the turn-away and return the more likely the Grey is to miss the point of your turning-away. Will this work. No sure, Grey's are very bright and can elect to not play or provide different meaning. But it is worth trying.

Greys are very connect to our emotions and pick-on ours and as a result, you must mind your emotions while working with your Grey.

Your Greys biggest problem is your 'to-do-list and your time-line.' Drop your expectations to zero and enjoy each day as this Grey choose to be with you.

Whilst everything you say is a valid point, the reason I have is that he is still scared of everything outside of his cage, and every official bird behaviourist I’ve consulted so far has said the exact same thing “sort out the hormones, then get to training!” But aside from the things I’ve listed, they’re not giving much else of an incentive on how else to sort it, hence why I’ve come here to ask.

Yes I’m very lucky he’s settled and has chosen me as his person, but I have other animals to tend for and thus can’t be at his cage all day. He steps up onto me and his inner cage perches, but is petrified of all the perches and available climbing tools in his room. I can only introduce him to use these and explore via training basics, but we can’t get to the basics because whenever I’m here it’s vomit vomit vomit.

Because of this he doesn’t particularly leave his cage other than to sit on top of the cage. So when I’m not in the same room as him, I feel like he’s doing what he was doing back in his own home - being bored beyond belief and doing nothing in the same spot day after day! I’d like to bring him into the other rooms with me on a play stand but his fear of new perches makes this impossible, and I can’t just casually get him off of my shoulder without great difficulty (getting my hand to his feet makes him vomit on my fingers instead, and offering a perch makes him panic fly and crash somewhere in the room - he’s a terrible flier). Introducing both of these things are a part of training.

Yes he has a multitude of perches now, chewable toys galore, but he doesn’t play nor chew them anyways. You know what the solution to teach birds how to interactive with their toys involve? Training. See the pattern here? I need training as the basis to get him stimulated with more than just never moving reciting the vocabulary he learned from his own home and waiting for me to walk back over for his failed attempts at romance.

It’s easy to say be grateful for what you’ve got, but I’ve still got what I see as an anxious hormonal bird that still has issues that we need resolving, that sitting around and leaving isn’t fixing, if only further cementing what ways he’s already set in.

 

[SailBoat]

You are fully bought into the official behaviour beliefs and methods. Training is 'the' most important thing and it must be fixed now or all will fail.

I work with older Amazons, which have commonly been abused, feed sunflower seed, corn and peanuts, sick and have zero want to ever interact with another Human. Because they are commonly sick, we are busy providing medications and have to set every hope of developing a bond aside. Point is, you are light years ahead of where we would be at this point.

You are wed to your method and that is not going to change. If you are going to lock into behavioural methods, you are going to have to look behind the dark curtain, see and use the ugly side of behaviourism. They all swear they do not do it, but Starvation, prior to training, thus forced attention to the training is their Ace.

 

[pterry97]

You are fully bought into the official behaviour beliefs and methods. Training is 'the' most important thing and it must be fixed now or all will fail.

I work with older Amazons, which have commonly been abused, feed sunflower seed, corn and peanuts, sick and have zero want to ever interact with another Human. Because they are commonly sick, we are busy providing medications and have to set every hope of developing a bond aside. Point is, you are light years ahead of where we would be at this point.

You are wed to your method and that is not going to change. If you are going to lock into behavioural methods, you are going to have to look behind the dark curtain, see and use the ugly side of behaviourism. They all swear they do not do it, but Starvation, prior to training, thus forced attention to the training is their Ace.

With all due respect, it sounds like you're now projecting your own misgrievances with your own set of training onto me.

None of my own training regimes have ever worked around starving animals, so promptly remove that from this discussion. I train dogs for good citizenship schemes, none of which ever sets foot into the boundary of "balanced" methods, we work for force free and modern methods - centred around choice. So it's safe to say the bird advice I have been following thus far from resources provided by Barbara Heidenreich, who literally made an entire resource archive for force free working with exotic animals, with surplus research in birds, along with fellow input provided through Pamela Clark, Lindsey Miller, and Mary Derk, who follow these practice studies, that the training we implement is one based on permitting choice to the animal.

The reason training is so important is that it is the building steps to giving a bird the choice in what they want to do in a way where both parties can successfully communicate their wants and needs to each other. How I can safely transport my bird from one place to another without him panicking or needing to be forced into a stressful situation - for example, having to be towelled and moved to a carrier that he's never been exposed to, which is a stressful and forced experience, to a weekly practice of having practice touch sessions near the carrier, eventually leading to curiosity of entering the carrier by themselves, with rewards to the process. So that in the future if he's needed to be relocated, perhaps to go to a vet or elsewhere, he won't be forced into what could otherwise be made into a traumatic experience for him. To assume training is anything but starved out party tricks is your own narrow mindedness.

This post isn't even about the training, which I don't have cause for concern with. My post was about the expected period it takes for hormones to reduce, to see if anyone who has had similar issues had their own timeframe they experienced or not. Once his hormones are more in balance, then I can officially focus on our regime. Thank you for your input so far, but your opinion on your transgressions towards animal training was not asked for.

 

[SailBoat]

Very sorry that you see my statements in that light. I had guessed that you work with dogs and that you likely worked with Barbara Heidenreich's approach. Interested and happy to see that she has changed her approach from my prior experience with her.

It is my hope that you become successful with your Grey.

 

[wrench13]

Hi, hi, hi! THe good thing about hormone season is that it eventually ends. One important thing is to not let hormonal behavior (and how you react to it) become permanent behavior. My 'Zon and I do a LOT of training (check out his videos), but when he is hormonal, I let that go for as long as it takes, giving Salty the option of declining the session.

Remember - "This Too Shall Pass!".