Food in the morning, out at night?

Laurasea

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Hi,
I do see your progress, and cheer you on.

Its difficult not to address all issues when we help people. As its the whole bird and environment ect. We all start out and learn a lot on the way, and even years later I keep trying to learn more.

I would like to suggest additional perches for the cage. Dowels are just not great for their feet, over time leads to feet issues and sore spots, and arthritis . Even little budgies need at least one perch that is as big around as a small ok made with fingers. This gives them a chance to rest with fully supported foot.

As far as withholding food, I'm against it. Burds have a very simple digestive system..food passes very quickly through it. You have probably noticed yours poop about every 15 minutes, and that there is a pile underneath them were they sleep. I don't think I still have a diagram of a burds digestive track, likely easily found on Google. They also have a high metabolism, and evolved to be more of a grazing animal eating small amounts all day. Infact when they fast overnight (normally birds don't eat after dark) their poop can take on a deep green color from bile acids. Its very noticeable in species other than budgies. Thsts normal fir first morning poop. But when seen later in the day is a sign the bird isn't eating enough, has liver issues or infection. I share that because it shows how on the line burds are metabolically just from the normal not eating when dark.
So its risky to withholding food. If the temperature drops a little overnight or drafts they burn even more calories. Burds burn a lot of calories to maintain temperature, due to their airspace air sacks inside their body. ( why its so important to prove warmth for sick burds to save calories they need to use fighting infection) . Or if they are burning more calories from stress or activities. They get in trouble very quickly. So what I'm saying is its risky, as in sudden death risky.
You may say, that their activity or behavior seems fine. But they hide any health issues, hardwired evolved to hide , until they are critical and can't spare the calories anymore, and then they are typically hours to 24 hours from death and its difficult to save them at that point.

So if you pull the food out overnight, be there first thing in the morning with the food in your hand. And I would not withhold food during daylight hours at all.
 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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This is great progress! Good to hear that they are eating out of your hand
Thank you for that. I am Definitely leaning towards pellets. On the Facebook Parakeet Pro forum Admin over there insists on seeds 24/7 He is also dead se against pellets. I posted this a the site and created a sort of "fire storm" of starving our birds, etc. SEEDS 24/7 they say... eat at night ... they say. Only birds I knew to eat at night were owls.
Grant it, they do need food, and I get it back into the cage promptly. But I think it is about done running it's course, as they do not fear me or my "hand" as much as before.

Picked up a book: BUDGIES A Guid to Caring For Your Parakeet by Angela Davids, and learning quite a bit. For example they like white millet and don't like red millet and discard it. I noticed the 4th ingredient in Zupreem seed mix I have is red millet. I guess it's cheaper.
 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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would like to suggest additional perches for the cage. Dowels are just not great for their feet, over time leads to feet issues and sore spots, and arthritis . Even little budgies need at least one perch that is as big around as a small ok made with fingers. This gives them a chance to rest with fully supported foot.
Thank you for your kind reply! :) Yes there are other perches in there,. I live on a small acreage and we raised Heartnuts (a sport of Japanese walnuts) along with hazel nuts, pecans, English walnuts and some assorted fruit trees. I have wild grape vines on the property and used those with notches to add in perches. I think I only left in the one perch, but since it is different sized than the grapevine perches, and some walnut perches, thought it might be alright for the time.

No, I do not withhold food at any time during the day. Once it goes in, and fresh food, free of hulled seeds, it stays in there the entire day until later in the evening. I know birds have a higher metabolism that a lot of animals. Just never thought about them eating during the dark of the night. I figured they would just sleep.

I have seen people on here recommending pellets, and I think a good quality pellet will beat a seed 13 ways to Sunday, if you can get them to eat them. One of them mentioned was Roudybush pellets. I have it on my wish list, but I did notice in the ingreditents that they added ammonium hydroxide, a type of base or caustic Sodium hydroxide is a caustic (base) known as LYE. Ammonium hydroxides is what is in window cleaners and has other uses. They also have Calcium carbonate along with some acids like citric acid and ascorbic acid, and most times mixed together, acids and bases react to create salts. Sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid will react and make... Sodium chloride, aka table salt. So not sure why these types of ingredients, mainly the ammonium hydroxide would be of any value.
(ps I was an Assistant Winemaker and worked in the lab of a winery for over 20 years. :) )

I DO VERY MUCH appreciate all you folks, even though I have questioned answers on the occasion. The internet is full of opinions, and sometimes it is hard to separate facts from just plain old fiction. Thanks!


I do put the food dish next to my laptop and reminds me that it needs to go back in. Laptop is on the kitchen table, and the birds are also in the kitchen so they can see me many times during the day.
 

Laurasea

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Diet is always a big debate..
Because budgies are a grass seed parakeet, myself I'm ok with seeds plus veggies and fresh stuff. Seed only is deficit in many key vitamins

That said my budgies eat oven baked bites crumbs from the others crunched very well and served them out..they eat and nibble on every pellet I have offered to my psrrits..

I'm most happy they eat leafy romaine lots of vitamin A in romaine, plus lots of veggies, thst a seed only diet doesn't have.

Ooo id love some grapevine and willow . I'm lucky to have crepe myrtle which is safe after I scrub it and all.
 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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Diet is always a big debate..
Because budgies are a grass seed parakeet, myself I'm ok with seeds plus veggies and fresh stuff. Seed only is deficit in many key vitamins

That said my budgies eat oven baked bites crumbs from the others crunched very well and served them out..they eat and nibble on every pellet I have offered to my psrrits..

I'm most happy they eat leafy romaine lots of vitamin A in romaine, plus lots of veggies, thst a seed only diet doesn't have.

Ooo id love some grapevine and willow . I'm lucky to have crepe myrtle which is safe after I scrub it and all.
You have a lot of mouths to feed I see. I joined Quaker and India Ringneck Parrot forums to get a bit more insight into them. Like I may have mentioned, we have 2 Zebra Finches and 2 Parakeets, plus the 4 dogs and 1 cat. Was thinking back in December of Lovebird. My wife used to have a Lovebird named Hammerstein who died tragically some years back. So also considering the Quaker, IRN, as well as a Lovebird. I understand that Quakers are more aggressive and loud as are IRN. Loud as in "SCREAMS" Though that is another subject for further research and treads. :) .

I see the ingredients lists of some of the well known pellets and I see that Alfalfa is also one of the ingredients, as well as ground corn, soybeans and soybean meal, oats, etc. The biggest advantage I see from Pellets is that if one does not have them eat fresh veggies and fruits, at least they will get a more "balanced" nutrition with pellets. There must be millions of folks out there that only feed seeds to their parakeets, as there are literally tons and tons of seed foods available online, in Walmart, Target, grocery stores, Dollar stores, etc. and I imagine the seed is the only thing many of these parakeets ever get.

Thanks for your replies!! ALL of you !! I don't mean to be too contentious, but I like to see research as to "how" they come up with some of the things that are said on Facebook forums, etc. :)
 

foxgloveparrot

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You have a lot of mouths to feed I see. I joined Quaker and India Ringneck Parrot forums to get a bit more insight into them. Like I may have mentioned, we have 2 Zebra Finches and 2 Parakeets, plus the 4 dogs and 1 cat. Was thinking back in December of Lovebird. My wife used to have a Lovebird named Hammerstein who died tragically some years back. So also considering the Quaker, IRN, as well as a Lovebird. I understand that Quakers are more agressive and loud as are IRN. Loud as in "SCREAMS" Though that is another subject for further research.

I see the ingredients lists of some of the well known pellets and I see that Alfalfa is also one of the ingredients, as well as ground corn, soybeans and soybean meal, oats, etc. The biggest advantage I see from Pellets is that if one does not have them eat fresh veggies and fruits, at least they will get a more "balanced" nutrition with pellets. There must be millions of folks out there that only feed seeds to their parakeets, as there are literally tons and tons of seed foods available online, in Walmart, Target, grocery stores, Dollar stores, etc. and I imagine the seed is the only thing many of these parakeets ever get.

Thanks for your replies!! ALL of you !! I don't mean to be too contentious, but I like to see research as to "how" they come up with some of the things that are said on Facebook forums, etc. :)
You are correct, pellets are almost always made with some seed. But they have more variety in them, as you also stated. Which is why I prefer them.
And yes, budgies are seed-eating birds in the wild, so they do need more seed in their diets - obviously not all seed, but more than other birds. I sprinkle seed on top of the budgies' chop, but the point is that they eat it afterwards.
My parrotlet, sennie, and zon eat less seed than the budgies do.
 

Laurasea

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Budgies feed only seeds tend die, at about 2 years. People use to wrongful think they only lived a couple of years.

A seed only diet has no vitamin A among many other messing vitamins and nutrients. This lack if vitamin A causes bunting of papili leading to difficulty absorbing nutrients, and respiratory issues and vitamin A is linked with immune system...

So its critical to have them eat leafy greens and veggies, or eating pellets that have balanced nutrition added.

Quakers are a lot like cockatoo they will turn to screaming and Plucking and self destruction very easily. So easily its called quaker mutilation syndrome, they tend to chew off their toes and dig into the muscles on legs and belly. They are re homed and neglected by the thousands. They require a large cage and 5 plus out of cage time , lots if mental stimulation, exercise and one attention.
One of mine i got because of non stop screaming during all daylight hours. Took months to get that under control, and constant work to prevent this. Still makes a good deal of noise but falls more under the norm . My other qusker rescue was self destruction, self mutilation of feet and Plucking and lots of screaming abd a fair amount of biting. My rehome was considered loud by room mates snd previous owner could not provide the time this species needs.
So all of mine fall under problem birds.
The reason I have successfully gotten happy birds, is I work at it, I provide a ton of foraging , due to health issues I'm home and they are out of the Cage 8 hours a day, are flighted. I understand behavior, and postive behavior modification. .

My friends family would tell you I have more patience than anyone else they know
 

Laurasea

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Vitamin A
Except from link below
"

Vitamin A Deficiency of Pet Birds​

Vitamin A plays an important role in avian health and is crucial for a healthy immune system. Hypovitaminosis A causes squamous metaplasia of epithelium within the oropharynx, choana, sinuses, GI tract, urogenital tact, reproductive tract, and uropygial gland as well as hyperkeratosis of the feet. All-seed diets and even mixed diets of ½ seeds and ½ pellets (if not portion controlled) are deficient in vitamin A.
Clinical signs are nasal discharge, sneezing, periorbital swelling, conjunctivitis, dyspnea, polyuria and polydipsia, poor feather quality, feather picking, and anorexia. Birds may have absent or blunted papilla of the choanal slit. White plaques (hyperkeratosis) may develop in and around the mouth, eyes, and sinuses. In chronic epithelial conditions (eg, pododermatitis, sinusitis, and conjunctivitis) that have been refractory or recurrent, often vitamin A deficiency is the primary cause. Birds with reproductive disease on poor diets should be considered deficient"

 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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Ooo id love some grapevine and willow
Wild grapes are common in every state. Even in Nebraska along river banks in the west. Plentiful out here in Michigan too. Any forest will probably have some - Beware of poison ivy that also climbs along trees.
 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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@Laurasea My wife found me some great reading which I'll post links to. I also talked with my Cousin Dr. Larry Rittenhouse, Colorado, a highly respected animal nutritionist about the food out at supper time and back in at breakfast and he told me don't worry about that, just make sure they are getting good foods with proper nutrition at least during the daytime. This is a man that was sent to China, Tanzania, Australia (several times) Morocco, Africa, Iceland, and many other places during his tenure.. 27 countries at least. So I do tend to listen very careful to what he says. Their metabolism is high, but so is the hummingbird, who perches and sleeps at night, and probably the hummingbird has a much faster metabolism than does the parrots or parakeets.
Just wanted to set yours (and others) mind at ease a little bit.
In my research, thanks in part to the plethora of "doomsayers" over at Facebook forums, about "SEEDS" in there 24/7 I found some great info that also addresses 2 other things. Aggression and sleep or lack of it. Here are the article links: What you need to know about a Parrots day and night cycle (Would explain a LOT about people posting that their parrot bites, is aggressive, etc. https://be.chewy.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-a-parrots-night-and-day-cycle/
And this article and things you SHOULD NOT be doing to your parrot: https://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/pages/hormonal-behavior-in-pet-birds-therapeutic-remedies A quote from the "Hormonal-behavior link... in the section on FEEDING "Varying the foods offered and feeding only the amounts consumed can simplify life and result in a healthier bird. Organic formulated diets can deliver nourishing fare easily and quickly. Supplementation with organic vegetables offers variety. As birds typically feed twice a day, early morning and late afternoon, meal-feeding for a finite time (one to two hours) twice a day can have numerous benefits. Meal-feeding restores one more facet to the regular periodicity observed in wild parrots. Meal feeding avoids a lot of waste and seems to return food to a mode of sustenance instead of entertainment."

In other words, after reading the articles I linked, it becomes pretty clear that "SCREAMERS" are created by us, as "WE" are the animal being trained by the parrot and not the other way around. LOL Enjoy the reading. Really mind opening.
 

Laurasea

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always enjoy reading
You might enjoy this thread

On food pull, I just have visions of sleeping in, a relaxed morning with coffee and then not getting to feeding until 10 am or later.....
A huge fasting.... a big stress on the bird

Hummingbird are amazing! Also not parrots, lol you probably noticed! Evevolved torpor, to be able to survive fasting overnight....
" Hummingbirds go into a daily hibernation like state called torpor every night. They must reduce their body temperature, heart rate and breathing to create the appearance of being almost dead in order to conserve energy at night."

Yep on sleeping and screaming. Webhsve many members who are quick to help novice on the importantance of sleep. When ever I help people with behavior, I areas the whole bird and environments. Not the screaming. I've taken on screamers created before they were my birds, big reasons birds are given up!! And turned them around :)

Ps. I'm sticking your link on sleeping in my ornithology thread, thanks! Don't think k I've stuck a sleeping article in yet.
 
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vljenewein

vljenewein

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This picture was on Jan 8, one month from bringing home Rocky from same pet store Adrian came from 9 days earlier (or so)
I am weaning them a bit more towards pellets from Roudybush, and this is them eating a mix of seed and pellets Taming appears to be coming along. :) Even my wife can hold millet seed in her hand have have them come to eat BIG :)
It is very similar to another picture I have shared, but this is the 1 month anniversary of having brought home the little blue guy... ROCKY Balboa from the pet store.

Also, I notice that on Lafeber's web site there is a veterinarian blog of birds that have been helped immensely with proper nutrition, which involved pellets. A lot of health issues with too much fat in the diet from seeds alone, and then having to treat it later on. Lafeber will send you a small sample package if you call them. I did and got some stuff to try out with these guys!
 

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vljenewein

vljenewein

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Since I started weaning them toward Pellets, this concept of taking out the food at night at covering, and returning after uncovering in the AM has helped tremendously in Pellet conversion!! I started by putting Roudybush only in the feed dish and feeding seeds + pellets , by hand, in the morning, noon and afternoon some Roudybush in my hand mixed with seed They gingerly ate. I put 20.000 g (I have a milligram scale) of pellets in the dish. At first it was only about .8 g to 1.5 g gone out of the dish. Yesterday I saw both birds eating the pellets out of the food container. Lat night the weight of pellets was only 9 grams left out of 20.000 g. Quite a noticeable difference. This evening, it appears more pellets have been eaten, (after being brought back up to 20.000 and I still give pellets with a sprinkling of seeds off and on during the day. So in about 5 days they are pretty much eating Roudybush pellets. I have some Lafeber pellets in the other container and each night at weighting, it still is about the same 20.00 grams. They really prefer Roudybush I guess. Will have to take some of those Lafeber pellets and put in my hand and mix with seed and see hot that goes with them.
 
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