Forum's approach to unweaned baby birds

[Scott]

The argument of helping an unweaned bird and stopping the illegal trade just doesn't add up. If we - and really I mean the breeders experienced enough to give detailed and accurate help - do step in and help potentially illegally taken, sold and in some cases kept baby parrots, aren't we encouraging the taking of unweaned babies?

I'm glad to hear that a number of forum members can remember success stories. To be honest I was surprised. Maybe I'm too jaded and don't have much faith in people who would get an unweaned baby with absolutely no idea how to care for it. I researched for years before getting my bird, so I guess the approach some people seem to have just doesn't compute.

If I came across as suggesting 'we' were too busy and important to offer advice then I've been misunderstood. This wasn't my intention and wasn't even something I'd thought about. I'm just not sure that offering the forum-based equivalent of buying an animal from a terrible store to "save" it has ever been the right thing to do. Why should someone stop doing something that gets them rewards?

I still think this is an important discussion to have, and clearly there are a range of opinions, thank you to everyone who has gotten involved.

Thank you for starting and continuing an important conversation! That it has remained on track and cordial is a testament to the serious plight of unweaned babies.

I tend to compartmentalize the dueling issues of aiding a sick baby and possibly abetting a noxious trade in juvenile flesh. We attempt to save one bird at a time, but I am not certain curtailment and allowing the fatality count to rise has any impact on the supply/demand side. The capture of wild birds and cheap breeding is unlikely to be altered by good samaritans. I suspect the ratio of baby birds being saved by group effort vs. total losses is unknowingly sad.

 

[Sandy19]

I got an unweaned bird from a pet store and they showed me how to feed it and it seemed pretty simple so I took it home, I thought it was a common thing. Then I couldn't remember if they said to put the syringe in its mouth from my left to its right or its left to my right so I googled it. Then it came up with all kinds of horrible things that could go wrong like aspiration. Then it lead me to here. I freaked out and was getting ready to just take the bird back because I was so scared that I might cause it to aspirate.

Anyway long story short, I got some valuable information from the people here and my baby did fine.

 

[Cardinal]

The argument of helping an unweaned bird and stopping the illegal trade just doesn't add up. If we - and really I mean the breeders experienced enough to give detailed and accurate help - do step in and help potentially illegally taken, sold and in some cases kept baby parrots, aren't we encouraging the taking of unweaned babies?

I researched for years before getting my bird, so I guess the approach some people seem to have just doesn't compute.

I'm just not sure that offering the forum-based equivalent of buying an animal from a terrible store to "save" it has ever been the right thing to do. Why should someone stop doing something that gets them rewards?

I still think this is an important discussion to have.

Hi Jottlebot



Thank you for bringing up this very important topic. Want to respond to whatever you have said above.

1. Yes! It does not add up directly. But my hope is that it eventually will. Every person who posts here on having acquired an unweaned baby Alexandrine or any other native Psittacula parakeet , and hails from the Indian Subcontinent or SE Asia should be gently and politely but also firmly be told that s/he has participated in an illegal and immoral act.
But at the same time, s/he should be given the benefit of doubt that it has been done out of ignorance and definitely the bird should not suffer the consequences for it.
Also , in my opinion the person should be encouraged to participate in various wildlife conservation and rescue related activities based on the region or city s/he is from : e.g. WRRC from Bangalore:
Wildlife Rescue & Rehabilitation Centre | CUPA

and needles to say discouraged from any further purchase of wild parrots, weaned or otherwise.

2. Yes ! Researching for years or at least multiple months is the best way to go before procuring the right bird for you unless it is a case of emergency eg. a friend is critically ill and you have to take care of their birds etc. But unfortunately many people, in most parts of the world do not adopt this path and there are a lot of impulse purchases- especially of Budgies and Cockatiels and unweaned wild parrot babies where they are not expensive.

3. Yes ! We should definitely not encourage an act that causes tremendous suffering to an individual bird and in addition may contributes to loss of biodiversity. But we need not stop communication with an individual who may have made a mistake and is willing to accept that it is a mistake and may even make a positive contribution in the future.

4. Yes ! this is a very important discussion and I am personally very passionate and concerned about this species- The Alexandrine parakeet as I have volunteered with a few rescue shelters that house them and have also done a soft release back into the wild. It has already become extinct in Cambodia, parts of Sri Lanka, large parts of Pakistan and is doing well only in some patches in India e.g. the Central Indian forests.

 

[Flboy]

The argument of helping an unweaned bird and stopping the illegal trade just doesn't add up. If we - and really I mean the breeders experienced enough to give detailed and accurate help - do step in and help potentially illegally taken, sold and in some cases kept baby parrots, aren't we encouraging the taking of unweaned babies? ...........
I still think this is an important discussion to have, and clearly there are a range of opinions, thank you to everyone who has gotten involved.

My feeling, we aren’t encouraging, we are trying to save a life! And at the same time, the individual that is caught in the middle of this is learning how wrong it was!
That is one of the things that I so admire about this forum, we do our best to help and correct, not butcher!

 

[EllenD]

I would rather read and react to 5,000 posts like that than to just coldly point them to a precanned response. Sheesh is our time that valuable that we cant help each one of these people? Who are seeking HELP for their babies.

Point them to a vet and keep pointing them to one. The vet can at least put the bird in a warm oxygen tank, or take over feeding, while the author runs out and gets all of the stuff you guys always suggest they should get.

Eagle, WE DO POINT THEM TO A VET! ALWAYS! FIRST-THING!!! And if you read ANY of these types of posts you will see that this is always the first thing that is always stated...HOWEVER...

It usually takes a good number of posts to just figure out where the OP is in the world, and then another few posts for them to find either the closest Avian Vet (if there is one in their entire country), or a Livestock Vet that treats poultry...So yes, it does "go on for pages and pages"...SO WHAT???

And in the meantime, while the OP either does or does not find a vet, any vet, to take their baby bird to, they typically do announce to us that they "had no idea that the formula needed to be at least 104 degrees F, they were told by the breeder seller that it only needed to be warm", and the same goes for the Brooder/ambient temperature situation...So then it typically takes another several posts or a page of posts for the OP to collect the necessary equipment needed, get it set-up properly, and/or to even be given the REQUIRED, DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT HOW TO ACTUALLY HAND-FEED THEIR BABY!!! Often they're using a regular spoon, or they are actually telling us that they have been "FORCE-FEEDING" the baby...So yes, it does take post after post after post for us to get them headed in the right direction...

It's kind of difficult to "mentor" a person on the particulars of hand-feeding a baby parrot my friend, but that is exactly what we are doing in these posts, we are "MENTORING" these people...And 99% of the time, whether their bird lives or dies, they much appreciate our help and thank us dearly for taking our time to help them in-detail, sometimes for days and days, as is necessary to do...

I for one wouldn't feel good about myself OR this parrot community if we were to be REQUIRED to simply tell these OP's in this situation "Take your baby bird to an Avian Vet immediately, it is sick. We are not vets here, and we can neither diagnose nor treat your baby bird"...That makes me physically ill to even type-out and read back to myself, let alone actually say to a person who is desperately trying to figure out what is wrong with their dear little baby bird, which they love very much...

***These OP's feel helpless because they are losing their babies...WE HAVE ALL FELT THIS EXACT, SAME FEELING OF HELPLESSNESS...Who helps us during these times???? Our CAV's, that's who...But these people don't have CAV's anywhere near them, often having to travel hours and hours and hours one-way to get to a Poultry Vet or even just a Vet in-general...IN FACT, WE JUST HAD ONE OF THESE POSTS LAST MONTH (I'll try to find it and link it...Yes, it went on for pages and pages, and yes, myself and Itzjbean worked our asses off to help this OP and his baby Alex, forgive my language but that's exactly what we did...His baby Alex had both a fungal infections and a bacterial infection in his crop and GI Tract and was not emptying, and was at the vomiting stage...And this is what I'm talking about, both myself and Itzjbean counseled this OP not only about getting to a Vet and formula temperatures and Brooder temperatures, but on HOW TO MAKE A BROODER! How to treat Crop-Stasis with ACV and Alka-Seltzer...how to flush it's crop...and then how to properly hand-feed the baby so he would no longer aspirate bits of formula into the bird's lungs...We both posted and posted and posted all day long, for days...And this OP not only got the necessary equipment and made a Brooder and treated his baby for the Crop-Stasis, HE ENDED UP DRIVING 14 HOURS ONE-WAY TO GET HIS BABY TO THE CLOSEST AVIAN SPECIALIST...14 HOURS ONE-WAY!!! And he made this drive AFTER making the necessary changes, buying the necessary equipment, learning the proper way to hand-feed his baby, and treating the Slow-Crop/Crop-Stasis...And the Avian Vet did cultures, diagnosed both a fungal and a bacterial infection, put the bird on multiple prescription meds, and also told the OP that what we had told him was correct, and that we were correct as to the cause of his baby's illness...AND HIS BABY LIVED!!!

Had we not gone on for "page after page after page", this baby would have died the same day that the OP originally posted...But he didn't. He lived...And no one had to read through every single post, or any post in that thread...THOSE PAGES OF POSTS WERE NOT MEANT FOR EVERYONE TO ENTERTAIN THEMSELVES. They also were not meant to depress or upset anyone, they were meant for the OP and to save the baby bird. And we did so...

I don't at all understand why some people feel that "page after page after page of posts is unnecessary", or "these posts end-up just being upsetting and depressing"...So don't read them!!! AND ISN'T JUST TELLING AN OP "SORRY, YOU NEED A VET. GOOD LUCK. BYE." and having the baby bird die much, much, much more upsetting and depressing than a very long thread containing post after post that is actually helping the OP and their bird?

I just don't understand the point of all this myself...There's nothing wrong at all with a civil community-wide discussion about issues/topics/problems...not at all in any way...But I'm having a lot of trouble with the fact that THIS COMMUNITY OF EXPERIENCED, GIFTED, LOVING, AND HELPFUL PEOPLE would ever even CONSIDER making these types of posts "banned" or have them be answered by an automated-response about finding a vet...that's what is upsetting me and depressing me...

 

[EllenD]

And just to add some some perspective to what was posed here....

On this forum we have hundreds and hundreds of Threads about "Making Homemade Bird Toys", "Building Your Own Play-Stands/Gyms", "Training Your Bird To Do Tricks", "Chop Recipes", "Finding a Name For My Bird", "Harness Training My Bird", "Cute Photos and Videos of My Bird", "My Bird Did the Cutest Thing!", etc., that go on and on and on for pages and pages and pages...

Yet we are complaining about and considering actually not answering Threads posted by OP's with unweaned, baby birds who are literally dying because they don't know what they're doing and don't have a vet anywhere near them, and who are begging for help to save their babies, because "they are usually just upsetting" and because "they go on and on for pages and pages"???

 

[EllenD]

The argument of helping an unweaned bird and stopping the illegal trade just doesn't add up. If we - and really I mean the breeders experienced enough to give detailed and accurate help - do step in and help potentially illegally taken, sold and in some cases kept baby parrots, aren't we encouraging the taking of unweaned babies? ...........
I still think this is an important discussion to have, and clearly there are a range of opinions, thank you to everyone who has gotten involved.

My feeling, we aren’t encouraging, we are trying to save a life! And at the same time, the individual that is caught in the middle of this is learning how wrong it was!
That is one of the things that I so admire about this forum, we do our best to help and correct, not butcher!

JottleBot, by the time these OP's with sick, dying baby parrots post here, the "illegal trade" issue is long past my friend. What, you would feel comfortable responding to one of these OP's with something like "Sorry, we at this online parrot community do not promote nor endorse the illegal trade and capture of wild parrots in your country, so we cannot and refuse to help you or your sick baby bird. Please find your nearest Certified Avian Vet for advice. Thank you for visiting our community. Have a nice day."???????

These are 2 completely different issues, and you know very well that helping these OP's who have a sick, dying, unweaned baby parrot will have no-bearing at all on the illegal parrot trade. All turning these people away will do is quite-literally KILL their birds. Period.

What's done is already done in these posts JottleBot. The point of talking about the illegal parrot trade in some of these countries is all about EDUCATING THESE PEOPLE ABOUT NOT BUYING/BRINGING HOME AN UNWEANED PARROT, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DO EACH EVERY TIME WE ANSWER THESE POSTS!!! I would bet everything I own that you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a single one of these type of posts where it was not mentioned to the OP that "This is why you should never buy or bring-home a baby bird that is not already weaned and eating solid food only", or something similar.

We DO always make this statement about never bringing home a baby bird that isn't already weaned to these OP's JottleBot, just the same as we always make telling the OP to take their baby bird to the nearest CAV, Poultry Vet, or even General Vet immediately the VERY FIRST THING WE TYPE OUT...This isn't any of our first-rodeo's, JottleBot. I doesn't sound like you've read through too many of these posts to me, and I don't mean that in a derogatory or critical way, it just doesn't sound like you fully understand the topic that you've started this post about my friend...I think you've seen a few of these types of posts, seen page after page after page of long instructions, sad photos, and statements that the babies have died, and this has gotten to you...And I understand that. However, you need to take a step-back and separate your emotions from the facts, and realize the huge scope of this particular issue, and the massive need for experienced bird-breeders online to help these OP's and their birds, as WE ARE OFTEN ALL THESE OP'S HAVE ACCESS TO...And that really is the bottom-line to this situation.

It's so easy to just say "Your baby bird is very sick and is going to die unless you take it to a Certified Avian Vet immediately. You should never buy an unweaned baby bird that needs to be hand-fed, as you don't know what you're doing and you have made your baby bird extremely sick because of your lack of experience. Please get your baby to a CAV right now, and please don't ever buy another baby bird that is not fully-weaned and eating solid food every again". In contrast, it takes such extreme patience, time, and a want to help someone you don't know, you've never met, you never will meet, who you don't even know their real name, and who often are stubborn and refuse to take your advice or to admit that we know what their problem is...And then there is the language/communication barrier, culture barrier, etc. It's also not at all easy for these OP's in extremely poor, foreign countries, to reach-out to total strangers who they know are going to criticize them and scold them for buying an unweaned baby bird in the first place, and then again for not know what they are doing and doing everything wrong, to the detriment of their birds...So these OP's deserve a lot of credit as well for simply doing anything and everything they can to help their birds, regardless of how they got them...

You don't have to help these OP's, no one has to try to help them or even say hello to them, or even open the thread if they don't want to. But don't criticize or challenge those of us who do want to help these people and their birds. It's our choice to try to help them.

And it must also be said that the majority of the members of this forum, even the most-senior members who have owned parrots for decades, don't often have any breeding, hand-feeding, hand-raising, or Avian Medical experience themselves, and they often help those of us who do quite often in these threads, responding quickly and immediately to the OP's initial post, telling them first that they need to take their bird to the nearest CAV, poultry vet, or general vet, and asking them where they live in the world, and offering to help them search for and find their nearest vet, wherever they may be, and then telling them in the meantime to "Hang-on, we have a lot of very experienced breeders and hand-feeders here that will be along very shortly to help you, don't leave, let's try to find the closest vet to you while we wait for them to see your post"...WE WORK VERY WELL HERE AS A TEAM ON THESE POSTS, WE ALWAYS HAVE IN MY EXPERIENCE! This is a special thing we have here in this online-community. I guarantee you that there is no other online Avian Forum that responds in this teamwork-fashion like we do...Gail is absolutely wonderful at helping in any and every way that she can, calming the upset and anxious OP down, giving them whatever advice that she can, and making sure that they don't take-off and leave, and that they know that we have people here that can and will help them soon...I for one want to thank Gail and everyone else who does this in these difficult posts, as without them we might never get to even try to help these OP's...

 

[EllenD]

JottleBot...

I have one more question for you, out of curiosity, and then I'll shut-up, lol...as you can see I am extremely passionate about this particular topic, probably due to the fact that I always try to do everything I can to help these OP's and their birds, and that I also know and appreciate that the other experienced breeders on this forum, such as SilverSage and Itzjbean also do the same thing, and do it proudly and without hesitation. That's very special to me, as it's very rare to find people willing to help total-strangers in the way we do here. Also, being a long-time bird breeder makes you more sensitive to this issue as well I suspect...until you have actually seen a newly-hatched, baby bird who is sick, or until you've made a mistake yourself while hand-feeding a baby which results in the baby's death (usually their instant-death, which is very traumatic and upsetting to see), you cannot possibly understand why an experienced breeder would want to help these OP's like we do...

Anyway, what I want to ask is how this particular situation is any different at all from a child/teenager who comes to this forum desperately seeking any and all help they can find for their pet bird, because their parents refuse to take the bird to the vet, and obviously the child/teenager is not able to do-so themselves, because they don't have the money to do so, and also usually cannot drive and have no way of getting the bird to a vet even if they did have the money?

This situation also happens quite-often, probably just as often as the OP's who have a sick, unweaned baby bird they have been hand-feeding come here for help...Are you suggesting that we simply tell any children/teenagers who come here looking for medical help for a sick or injured pet bird to simply "Find a way to get your bird to a Certified Avian Vet immediately", and add something like "If you can't afford to take your bird to the vet, or your parents are unwilling to take them for you, then you need to re-home your bird"...???? I mean, where do we draw the line? And why should we "draw a line" at all when it comes to helping sick or injured birds and their desperate owners?

I'm seriously hoping that no one is going to suggest (and actually nervous that this will happen) that we should help children/teenagers who come here with sick or injured birds and who have parents who refuse to get the bird to a vet, but we SHOULD NOT HELP these adult OP's we've been talking about, simply because they are adults and they "should have known better" than to bring home an unweaned bird...

Food for thought...

And I know that none of us here are vets, nor are we a replacement for a vet...But when there's an OP that either absolutely cannot afford or who is totally unable to get their bird to a vet, like a child/teenager, or an OP who lives in some far-off, little village in Pakistan where the closest vet of any kind is 14 hours away, aren't experienced parrot owners and breeders a better option than the OP doing a Google Search and trying God-knows-what? Or simply doing nothing and watching their bird die?

 

[Scott]

But I'm having a lot of trouble with the fact that THIS COMMUNITY OF EXPERIENCED, GIFTED, LOVING, AND HELPFUL PEOPLE would ever even CONSIDER making these types of posts "banned" or have them be answered by an automated-response about finding a vet...that's what is upsetting me and depressing me...

The official position of the moderator team is that such posts are welcome. Members have a responsibility to click on desired threads or ignore. When applicable, we encourage a disclaimer in the title of "NSFW" or "Graphic." If warranted, we will edit to insert. There will be no banning of a serious thread created to help a bird; that is one of our primary missions!

 

[Jottlebot]

EllenD (and others)

Don't worry, no one is suggesting that certain posts are banned or that they'll only get fixed responses. I don't think it's really been suggested as an option, more of a way to deal with the negative feelings these posts illicit, but I think even the person that suggested something like it didn't really feel it was an option.

Your posts have made me think a lot. You're right, I do react emotionally to the posts (we have that in common I think) and my default setting when I find things difficult are probably to work hard and "fix" them or try and ignore them. I can't fix these problems so I push them away.

I don't generally read more than the first post or two, you were right about that too. So I don't read all the incredible support you and others provide or the happy outcomes.

I'm happy to accept that this is more about my response to these posts rather than that the forum should be responding differently. The time and effort put in by those that do respond is commendable.

I don't accept that the people who have concerns about offering this support have anything other than genuine concerns for legitimate reasons.

I have been very interested in everyone's responses and that so many were willing to talk about the topic and explain and discuss their opinions and experiences.

 

[Kiwibird]

The official position of the moderator team is that such posts are welcome. Members have a responsibility to click on desired threads or ignore. When applicable, we encourage a disclaimer in the title of "NSFW" or "Graphic." If warranted, we will edit to insert. There will be no banning of a serious thread created to help a bird; that is one of our primary missions!

Glad to see personal choice and accountability are encouraged here. I know there are certain topics I avoid clicking on (or commenting on once I read the post if the title was unclear).

Specifically on the topic of the 'unweaned baby' problem- as others have mentioned a large percentage of these posters aren't from the US/UK/AU/Western Europe where avian specialized vets even exist in the country and most everyone has reliable transportation be it a car or good public transit to get there and money or financing options to pay for specialist vet treatments etc... You have to understand where some of these OP's come from, and it's not like where most of the people helping (and judging) them come from. There are also cultural differences in how people view animals and wildlife conservation in different parts of the world. Yet, regardless if by OUR cultural standards they have made an irresponsible choice getting a bird when they live somewhere with no vet, don't have a lot of money to spend on specialist supplies like brooders and the bird was likely wild-caught, the fact of the matter is they still have a sick baby bird on their hands who could benefit from experienced members guidance and trying to utilize what resources they do have available locally that could help, such as getting a heat lamp and an aquarium for a makeshift brooder or using a food thermometer to measure formula temperature etc... A small chance of the bird pulling through is better than the no chance they stand without help IMO. And if you find the threads too disturbing, don't click or comment. There is no requirement anyone post on any given thread or topic. And don't forget, with many of these OP's there is also a chance for education too. Educating on the problem of parrots being caught illegally and removed from the wild. Information they may or may not have available to them locally or have ever thought about before. Information they could later pass onto friends and family who may think twice before buying their own unweaned wild caught baby. You can't forget that opportunity, the opportunity to educate and let that newfound knowledge be disseminated in a part of the world you'll likely never go to yourself to campaign in about the wrongs of keeping wild caught parrots and/or inexperienced individuals raising hand weaned babies.

 

[EllenD]

But I'm having a lot of trouble with the fact that THIS COMMUNITY OF EXPERIENCED, GIFTED, LOVING, AND HELPFUL PEOPLE would ever even CONSIDER making these types of posts "banned" or have them be answered by an automated-response about finding a vet...that's what is upsetting me and depressing me...

The official position of the moderator team is that such posts are welcome. Members have a responsibility to click on desired threads or ignore. When applicable, we encourage a disclaimer in the title of "NSFW" or "Graphic." If warranted, we will edit to insert. There will be no banning of a serious thread created to help a bird; that is one of our primary missions!

Thank you all for this!!! It's sooo important for anyone and everyone with a bird to have at least one resource that they can go to for help. And for some, we are that one resource...

 

[EllenD]

EllenD (and others)

Don't worry, no one is suggesting that certain posts are banned or that they'll only get fixed responses. I don't think it's really been suggested as an option, more of a way to deal with the negative feelings these posts illicit, but I think even the person that suggested something like it didn't really feel it was an option.

Your posts have made me think a lot. You're right, I do react emotionally to the posts (we have that in common I think) and my default setting when I find things difficult are probably to work hard and "fix" them or try and ignore them. I can't fix these problems so I push them away.

I don't generally read more than the first post or two, you were right about that too. So I don't read all the incredible support you and others provide or the happy outcomes.

I'm happy to accept that this is more about my response to these posts rather than that the forum should be responding differently. The time and effort put in by those that do respond is commendable.

I don't accept that the people who have concerns about offering this support have anything other than genuine concerns for legitimate reasons.

I have been very interested in everyone's responses and that so many were willing to talk about the topic and explain and discuss their opinions and experiences (apart from DiscoDuck, who just ain't the discussing type!).

Jottlebot...

I am thankful to you for your willingness to try to understand WHY these posts are necessary, and why those of us on this forum who are able and willing to help want to continue to do so, and why we feel it important to do so...it's been a good discussion that we've had here, and I also thank you for that...

Also, I know you get emotional about topics like this, same as i and many other members here do, that's obvious, and that's a good thing...None of us here can help with every problem posted on this forum, none of us know something about everything, nor are we able to deal with everything, myself included. There are some threads where I've read the OP's initial post and either got so angry and frustrated about it, or so upset by it, that I just keep clicking away and ignore it, either because I don't want to say something I'm going to regret later to the OP, or because I just can't add anything of value to the conversation at all...And that's okay...

 

[Cardinal]

There is no requirement anyone post on any given thread or topic. And don't forget, with many of these OP's there is also a chance for education too. Educating on the problem of parrots being caught illegally and removed from the wild. Information they may or may not have available to them locally or have ever thought about before. Information they could later pass onto friends and family who may think twice before buying their own unweaned wild caught baby. You can't forget that opportunity, the opportunity to educate and let that newfound knowledge be disseminated in a part of the world you'll likely never go to yourself to campaign in about the wrongs of keeping wild caught parrots and/or inexperienced individuals raising hand weaned babies.

This was precisely my point too. I can't speak for all countries ; for that matter I can't speak for the whole of India either because India is huge- more people than all of North America, South America, Central American and Caribbean put together- just imagine the vastness.

But I can speak for parts of India I have lived in. The laws to protect birds are very strong and even the enforcement is done moderately well but there are always people who find a way to cheat the law and in a country of 1.3 billion, there are many individuals who are completely unaware. It just requires a handful of people to indulge in poaching and smuggling.

So education and spreading the word is very important.

 

[eagle18]

I would rather read and react to 5,000 posts like that than to just coldly point them to a precanned response. Sheesh is our time that valuable that we cant help each one of these people? Who are seeking HELP for their babies.

Point them to a vet and keep pointing them to one. The vet can at least put the bird in a warm oxygen tank, or take over feeding, while the author runs out and gets all of the stuff you guys always suggest they should get.

Eagle, WE DO POINT THEM TO A VET! ALWAYS! FIRST-THING!!! And if you read ANY of these types of posts you will see that this is always the first thing that is always stated...HOWEVER...

It usually takes a good number of posts to just figure out where the OP is in the world, and then another few posts for them to find either the closest Avian Vet (if there is one in their entire country), or a Livestock Vet that treats poultry...So yes, it does "go on for pages and pages"...SO WHAT???

And in the meantime, while the OP either does or does not find a vet, any vet, to take their baby bird to, they typically do announce to us that they "had no idea that the formula needed to be at least 104 degrees F, they were told by the breeder seller that it only needed to be warm", and the same goes for the Brooder/ambient temperature situation...So then it typically takes another several posts or a page of posts for the OP to collect the necessary equipment needed, get it set-up properly, and/or to even be given the REQUIRED, DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT HOW TO ACTUALLY HAND-FEED THEIR BABY!!! Often they're using a regular spoon, or they are actually telling us that they have been "FORCE-FEEDING" the baby...So yes, it does take post after post after post for us to get them headed in the right direction...

It's kind of difficult to "mentor" a person on the particulars of hand-feeding a baby parrot my friend, but that is exactly what we are doing in these posts, we are "MENTORING" these people...And 99% of the time, whether their bird lives or dies, they much appreciate our help and thank us dearly for taking our time to help them in-detail, sometimes for days and days, as is necessary to do...

I for one wouldn't feel good about myself OR this parrot community if we were to be REQUIRED to simply tell these OP's in this situation "Take your baby bird to an Avian Vet immediately, it is sick. We are not vets here, and we can neither diagnose nor treat your baby bird"...That makes me physically ill to even type-out and read back to myself, let alone actually say to a person who is desperately trying to figure out what is wrong with their dear little baby bird, which they love very much...

***These OP's feel helpless because they are losing their babies...WE HAVE ALL FELT THIS EXACT, SAME FEELING OF HELPLESSNESS...Who helps us during these times???? Our CAV's, that's who...But these people don't have CAV's anywhere near them, often having to travel hours and hours and hours one-way to get to a Poultry Vet or even just a Vet in-general...IN FACT, WE JUST HAD ONE OF THESE POSTS LAST MONTH (I'll try to find it and link it...Yes, it went on for pages and pages, and yes, myself and Itzjbean worked our asses off to help this OP and his baby Alex, forgive my language but that's exactly what we did...His baby Alex had both a fungal infections and a bacterial infection in his crop and GI Tract and was not emptying, and was at the vomiting stage...And this is what I'm talking about, both myself and Itzjbean counseled this OP not only about getting to a Vet and formula temperatures and Brooder temperatures, but on HOW TO MAKE A BROODER! How to treat Crop-Stasis with ACV and Alka-Seltzer...how to flush it's crop...and then how to properly hand-feed the baby so he would no longer aspirate bits of formula into the bird's lungs...We both posted and posted and posted all day long, for days...And this OP not only got the necessary equipment and made a Brooder and treated his baby for the Crop-Stasis, HE ENDED UP DRIVING 14 HOURS ONE-WAY TO GET HIS BABY TO THE CLOSEST AVIAN SPECIALIST...14 HOURS ONE-WAY!!! And he made this drive AFTER making the necessary changes, buying the necessary equipment, learning the proper way to hand-feed his baby, and treating the Slow-Crop/Crop-Stasis...And the Avian Vet did cultures, diagnosed both a fungal and a bacterial infection, put the bird on multiple prescription meds, and also told the OP that what we had told him was correct, and that we were correct as to the cause of his baby's illness...AND HIS BABY LIVED!!!

Had we not gone on for "page after page after page", this baby would have died the same day that the OP originally posted...But he didn't. He lived...And no one had to read through every single post, or any post in that thread...THOSE PAGES OF POSTS WERE NOT MEANT FOR EVERYONE TO ENTERTAIN THEMSELVES. They also were not meant to depress or upset anyone, they were meant for the OP and to save the baby bird. And we did so...

I don't at all understand why some people feel that "page after page after page of posts is unnecessary", or "these posts end-up just being upsetting and depressing"...So don't read them!!! AND ISN'T JUST TELLING AN OP "SORRY, YOU NEED A VET. GOOD LUCK. BYE." and having the baby bird die much, much, much more upsetting and depressing than a very long thread containing post after post that is actually helping the OP and their bird?

I just don't understand the point of all this myself...There's nothing wrong at all with a civil community-wide discussion about issues/topics/problems...not at all in any way...But I'm having a lot of trouble with the fact that THIS COMMUNITY OF EXPERIENCED, GIFTED, LOVING, AND HELPFUL PEOPLE would ever even CONSIDER making these types of posts "banned" or have them be answered by an automated-response about finding a vet...that's what is upsetting me and depressing me...

You are not understanding what I posted ,which is kinda of par for this site. Did you read my response to you, or my response to Owlet? He explained and I thanked him. I never said anything about NOT helping people who are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to their bird. I don't expect you to tell the person to F off or be rude in anyway.

And yes, sometimes the post does go on, page after page, in which by that time the OP could have taken their bird to the vet about 10 times over.

I merely pointed out that it can be overwhelming to have about twenty different people coming at you, all at once, with about twenty different pieces of advice, some even contradicting one another.

I have never seen people misconstrue words so much as they seem do on this site.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Eagle, my evaluation is exactly opposite... I find this site to be the most open-armed parrot place anywhere. I'm so sorry you don't. I appreciate the possibility that it may be very difficult for you to balance your desire to interact/share here with your great dissatisfaction with your perceptions when you do so. That must be difficult.

Meanwhile, members, I continue to laud your participation and dedication.

 

[eagle18]

Eagle, my evaluation is exactly opposite... I find this site to be the most open-armed parrot place anywhere. I'm so sorry you don't. I appreciate the possibility that it may be very difficult for you to balance your desire to interact/share here with your great dissatisfaction with your perceptions when you do so. That must be difficult.

Meanwhile, members, I continue to laud your participation and dedication.

Yeah, Being tired after work and school but still taking the time to give thoughtful replies, only to have my messages constantly misconstrued, can be a little frustrating. Apparently I am not the only one who thinks so.
http://www.parrotforums.com/new-members-welcome/31877-attitudes-responses-other-members.html

 

[GaleriaGila]

Oh, wow... that woud have been the very post I would have offered to you...
I'm glad you're reading it and affirming it!

 

[DiscoDuck]

I merely pointed out that it can be overwhelming to have about twenty different people coming at you, all at once, with about twenty different pieces of advice, some even contradicting one another.

I have never seen people misconstrue words so much as they seem do on this site.

Exactly!!

My opinion and only mine. Big Picture..

This "Forums Approach" would do well to "curb" those who are intelligent enough to post for help. And say, Use the same skills as their post to learn about what they are going to get themselves into before doing it.

This is why I say, the internet does not make people smarter. It simply becomes more of a, in your face, form of activism..

 

[eagle18]

Oh, wow... that woud have been the very post I would have offered to you...
I'm glad you're reading it and affirming it!

Glad to know that you were directing me to a thread that agrees with my concerns.