Is it true as Timneh's mature they get nippy (bite)

[Soloist]

Can anyone please verify if the statement is true that once a Timneh gets older, they start to become nippy and start biting , compared to Congos? I've been reading and watching videos that state that this is the case with Timnehs. I was just curious if any of this is true because I didn't hear about this until recently.

 

[noodles123]

This is true of ALL parrots. Babies are a walk in the park in comparison. When they approach sexual maturity (which varies by species) hormones rev up and stay up for generally a few years. After that, you have an adult bird (with adult sex hormones). Think about a baby, vs a 13-14 year old, vs a 21 year old...You never get your baby back to that place BEFORE hormones. Just like a 13-14 year old feels things intensely, so do parrots. A sassy 21 year old is still a lot less nice than a baby...but maybe a bit more level than the 13 year old.

A lot of people make the mistake of treating baby parrots like lap dogs and establish all of this inappropriate and preferred behavior (from the bird's perspective) that will lead to a hormonal, dependent ,"crazy" bird in adulthood....but once you establish "favorite things" you can't just take them away from them when they hit puberty without upsetting the bird (even when you realize that you have to), which is why you need to start young in terms of the behaviors you would expect post puberty (even if they won't be sexually mature for many years). NOTE: EVEN a bird that lives with an expert trainer is far more difficult / a much more intense commitment than most other pets in terms of the detail and knowledge they require...coupled with their long life-expectancies (which sound great, until it doesn't--for many, this is the case). You should never pet anywhere other than the head or neck...never allow access to shadowy spaces...teach them to play with toys...learn how to handle the behavior (ABA is a great start)...12 hours of sleep...balanced diet..at LEAST 1x yearly visits to an avian certified vet if at all possible (exotics vets are not the same). It can be tempting to carry your baby all around and take it with you everywhere, but what does that look like in 4 years when it sees you as its mate and gets jealous, or when you have to go to work and have a bird that doesn't know what it means to feel okay for periods of time alone? YOU MUST take them out at least 3-4 hours a day, but you also have to literally teach them to play etc...teach them in small doses (this doesn't mean locking them up and leaving).

Bottom line though, you will be bitten (we all have been)...but if you are, it's almost always because you aren't paying enough attention to the signals or because you don't know enough about behavior theory etc...so a "nippy" bird is a bird whose owner doesn't understand when to back off (despite clear "don't touch me" vibes) , or a bird whose owner hormonally stimulates it...or a sick bird..or a bird who has had its bad behavior inadvertently reinforced .
It is like adopting a VERY complicated, smart, child with unique needs and a totally different outlook on the world. I feel like this question worries me a bit because it is SUPER general...

Dogs and cats are much more intuitive and much easier than parrots in general (dogs and cats--yes, even cats-- move fast and bond quickly...they are forgiving in comparison and they brush things off easily- they also are domesticated, whereas parrots are literally still wild animals- even if hatched in captivity)...A parrot is a VERY complicated pet in comparison. From the changes they require in terms of the types of cleaners you use (including the fact that you can never use scented products like air fresheners, plug-ins, candles, oil warmers etc...fabreeze...it's all out..Teflon/PTFE/PFOA/PFCs= also out..perfumes etc...burning food, smoke, vaping...all very bad (and in terms of teflon, it can kill them even if you use it an entire floor away with doors shut). They also are VERY sensitive to changes...be it new furniture, a new boyfriend, a work schedule shift, hairstyle change etc etc etc..then there are dietary issues and the fact that they will hide illness until they are in an emergency situation...

 

[Soloist]

I really appreciate the insight, however, I guess the thread title wasn't clear. Sorry I guess I should of been more clear with the title because,
I was questioning more if the Timneh's are more aggressive and nippy compared to their Congo counterpart when they get older. I read couple of articles earlier this year (can't remember where) as well as saw couple of videos informing the viewers that Timneh's tend to be more nippy as they get older compared to Congos. Conversely, I contacted a breeder if they still breed Timneh's and advised they stopped because they noticed they tend to be aggressive, so they concentrate more on Congos.

Of course, each bird is an individual but out of curiosity if what I was told and read that Timneh tend to be more aggressive and nippy when they mature compared to Congos. I was intrigue with that statement when the breeder reiterated that thought.

One of the things, I love about parrot ownership and the vast knowledge I gain everyday, is that, no day is the same. Because I get to know a little something new about me and birdie, I live with.

 

[noodles123]

In terms of generalities, I have actually heard the opposite, but I don't put much stock in either. Sorry that probably doesn't help much! I grew up with a timneh who was "nippy" to those outside of her "circle of trust" lol! But, she was a wild-caught pet store bird (so unethical, but all the rage in the 70s and 80s)...But if a bird like that can be sweet to certain people, there is hope for all. She hated kids if she saw them as a threat to her position as the center of attention (she didn't like it when kids were born and she started getting less attention), but she generally left us alone unless we messed with her..she was always out but really only left her station if called or to steal food or play with the TV remote (a family video clip of me at 3 includes me showing santa the Christmas tree and saying, "careful with the birdie or she'll bite ya!". She was all about observing and occasionally crashing birthday parties with a semi intense fly-through (like her version of birthday spankings?? lol) but she mellowed out A TON as we mellowed out. When she died at age 40 or so (due to PDD, which she may have always had) EVERYONE was a mess...extended family too. She was a bad*ss and she was so smart and just always watching..not overly eager to please most people, but very loving with those she was bonded closely to. I started sitting with her for hours in my teen years and really trying to get to know her. She finally would step up for me etc (after basically watching me grow up lol). She was awesome--and sometimes scary (considering the fact that, at the time, she was the biggest bird I had ever really lived with). I miss her!

 

[Soloist]

Ah thanks for sharing with your experience with your TAG, so sorry about your lost. It's amazing how the pet trade with parrots has change over the years. Like you said, wild caught birds were the practice in the 70's and 80's. Then the 90's the slow but steady boom of parrot breeders arose. But wow the prices of parrots have gone up exponentially with some parrot types now. For instance, Macaws are double what breeders were asking 15 years ago but the ironic part is CAG remain somewhat almost the same at least where I am from (Canada). I read one of your CAG/TAG post reply- to a person inquiring about possibly adopting a TAG but wanting to know the going rate. I was kind of floored, what breeders are asking in the US, over double what breeders are offering here.

 

[noodles123]

Ah thanks for sharing with your experience with your TAG, so sorry about your lost. It's amazing how the pet trade with parrots has change over the years. Like you said, wild caught birds were the practice in the 70's and 80's. Then the 90's the slow but steady boom of parrot breeders arose. But wow the prices of parrots have gone up exponentially with some parrot types now. For instance, Macaws are double what breeders were asking 15 years ago but the ironic part is CAG remain somewhat almost the same at least where I am from (Canada). I read one of your CAG/TAG post reply- to a person inquiring about possibly adopting a TAG but wanting to know the going rate. I was kind of floored, what breeders are asking in the US, over double what breeders are offering here.

It's easily $4000 a pop here! I really wanted a TAG for a long time, so I shopped around at one point. They are very expensive in the US.

 

[Soloist]

I wonder if they are expensive because not a lot of breeders are breeding them unlike before. I know here, there are more CAG breeders than TAGs. But the prices are so vastly different in the States, I was checking how much Blue Headed Pionus are going for and I was taken aback again, asking for $2400. I was lucky and found one who was only less than $800. The breeder thought it was a female because it was smaller and the feather wasn't as prominent like a male. But now that I've had her just over a year now, I think it's a male because the head is starting to look bright blue and to my surprise talks quite a lot for a Pionus.

I would love to get a CAG or TAG but given their life expectancy, I don't know if I can provide that time because it would out live me and that wouldn't be right.
At least that's how I see it with regards to my life. But they would be a joy to have but their dust might trigger my allergies.

 

[noodles123]

I wonder if they are expensive because not a lot of breeders are breeding them unlike before. I know here, there are more CAG breeders than TAGs. But the prices are so vastly different in the States, I was checking how much Blue Headed Pionus are going for and I was taken aback again, asking for $2400. I was lucky and found one who was only less than $800. The breeder thought it was a female because it was smaller and the feather wasn't as prominent like a male. But now that I've had her just over a year now, I think it's a male because the head is starting to look bright blue and to my surprise talks quite a lot for a Pionus.

I would love to get a CAG or TAG but given their life expectancy, I don't know if I can provide that time because it would out live me and that wouldn't be right.
At least that's how I see it with regards to my life. But they would be a joy to have but their dust might trigger my allergies.

Have you considered adopting? There are SO many parrots that are in need...If you have the patience, you can definitely form a very tight bond with an adopted bird (even an adult). My bird was an adult when I got her. TAGs/CAGs are definitely dusty, but not as dusty as, say, a cockatoo. I am very glad that you are thinking about these things though, because they are very important!

 

[Soloist]

It's very interesting you suggest that because I was searching that and there isn't a lot of places that have CAG/TAG for adoption unlike the States. It's vastly different, I mean I can search the web and find so many organization that have adoption for parrots in the states and so limited here where I am. Conversely, I'm in a search of another bird either as a companion to my Pionus or just another pet that I can provide a good home to. I would like another Alexandrine (had one when I was younger) or a rescued Red Lore Amazon or possibly another breed or Pionus but they are just thoughts right now.
But it's interesting to hear other people's thoughts of TAGs vs CAG once matured.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

I had a TAG for twenty-eight years. All depended on her mood that day if she'd rip my flesh off or be sweet.



Jim

 

[Laurasea]

This is true of ALL parrots. Babies are a walk in the park in comparison. When they approach sexual maturity (which varies by species) hormones rev up and stay up for generally a few years. After that, you have an adult bird (with adult sex hormones). Think about a baby, vs a 13-14 year old, vs a 21 year old...You never get your baby back to that place BEFORE hormones. Just like a 13-14 year old feels things intensely, so do parrots. A sassy 21 year old is still a lot less nice than a baby...but maybe a bit more level than the 13 year old.

A lot of people make the mistake of treating baby parrots like lap dogs and establish all of this inappropriate and preferred behavior (from the bird's perspective) that will lead to a hormonal, dependent ,"crazy" bird in adulthood....but once you establish "favorite things" you can't just take them away from them when they hit puberty without upsetting the bird (even when you realize that you have to), which is why you need to start young in terms of the behaviors you would expect post puberty (even if they won't be sexually mature for many years). NOTE: EVEN a bird that lives with an expert trainer is far more difficult / a much more intense commitment than most other pets in terms of the detail and knowledge they require...coupled with their long life-expectancies (which sound great, until it doesn't--for many, this is the case). You should never pet anywhere other than the head or neck...never allow access to shadowy spaces...teach them to play with toys...learn how to handle the behavior (ABA is a great start)...12 hours of sleep...balanced diet..at LEAST 1x yearly visits to an avian certified vet if at all possible (exotics vets are not the same). It can be tempting to carry your baby all around and take it with you everywhere, but what does that look like in 4 years when it sees you as its mate and gets jealous, or when you have to go to work and have a bird that doesn't know what it means to feel okay for periods of time alone? YOU MUST take them out at least 3-4 hours a day, but you also have to literally teach them to play etc...teach them in small doses (this doesn't mean locking them up and leaving).

Bottom line though, you will be bitten (we all have been)...but if you are, it's almost always because you aren't paying enough attention to the signals or because you don't know enough about behavior theory etc...so a "nippy" bird is a bird whose owner doesn't understand when to back off (despite clear "don't touch me" vibes) , or a bird whose owner hormonally stimulates it...or a sick bird..or a bird who has had its bad behavior inadvertently reinforced .
It is like adopting a VERY complicated, smart, child with unique needs and a totally different outlook on the world. I feel like this question worries me a bit because it is SUPER general...

Dogs and cats are much more intuitive and much easier than parrots in general (dogs and cats--yes, even cats-- move fast and bond quickly...they are forgiving in comparison and they brush things off easily- they also are domesticated, whereas parrots are literally still wild animals- even if hatched in captivity)...A parrot is a VERY complicated pet in comparison. From the changes they require in terms of the types of cleaners you use (including the fact that you can never use scented products like air fresheners, plug-ins, candles, oil warmers etc...fabreeze...it's all out..Teflon/PTFE/PFOA/PFCs= also out..perfumes etc...burning food, smoke, vaping...all very bad (and in terms of teflon, it can kill them even if you use it an entire floor away with doors shut). They also are VERY sensitive to changes...be it new furniture, a new boyfriend, a work schedule shift, hairstyle change etc etc etc..then there are dietary issues and the fact that they will hide illness until they are in an emergency situation...

Noodles ,
I had to take the time to thank you for this post!

So well stated, babies are all sweet, a teenage
burd ( developmental stage , not in years) can be very difficult, and adults have their own thoughts, can be reasoned with, but will have hormonal seasons for life. Some adults can ride the hormonal Rollercoaster with ease. While some individuals , or species, will have hormonal screaming, attack you you to defend territory, and just be angry and frustrated during the breeding season. But do return to their stable selves once passed.

 

[Scott]

Both of my hand-raised TAGs remain(ed) nippy their entire lives. Definitely not cuddly but loveable and vocally entertaining.

 

[noodles123]

Both of my hand-raised TAGs remain(ed) nippy their entire lives. Definitely not cuddly but loveable and vocally entertaining.

There is no judgement here (having lived it) but if you try to touch them and they don't want to be touched, they will be nippy. Especially in comparison to some species. I think it just depends, but any bird can be nippy if they are not soliciting contact and it happens anyway. Some birds don't like physical contact (and I know you know this Scott-- so this is not directed at you-- it is just a general statement).

TAGs tends to be a bit stand-offish (not always...but often)

 

[Scott]

Both of my hand-raised TAGs remain(ed) nippy their entire lives. Definitely not cuddly but loveable and vocally entertaining.

There is no judgement here (having lived it) but if you try to touch them and they don't want to be touched, they will be nippy. Especially in comparison to some species. I think it just depends, but any bird can be nippy if they are not soliciting contact and it happens anyway. Some birds don't like physical contact (and I know you know this Scott-- so this is not directed at you-- it is just a general statement).

TAGs tends to be a bit stand-offish (not always...but often)

Completely agree! I had a semi-tame breeding pair that produced two offspring. The patriarch was least nippy though the fids were extremely chatty and entertaining.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Smokey would let me rub her beak but that was it,but she'd beak-bang my forehead and gurgle in my ear if on my shoulder but don't touch her! She was also very vocal and loving in her own sweet way. Miss her every day



Jim

 

[Soloist]

You know it's so true about no generalizing when it comes to parrots because though some parrot breeds do have common generalized traits like Cockatoos are cuddles and crave physical touch while Amazons are very aggressive and nippy during mating season. I know of breeder, who has a mating pair of Double Yellow headed Amazon and he can stick his hands insider their cage on or off breeding season and both the male and female will instantly step up and ask for head scratches and never show any sort of aggression. Though generalization is a good blue print of what to expect for a specific species, we as humans need to respect and learn our parrot's behaviour to understand what they are communicating with us and the boundaries they are drawing for each day as it can change from hour to hour.

 

[noodles123]

You know it's so true about no generalizing when it comes to parrots because though some parrot breeds do have common generalized traits like Cockatoos are cuddles and crave physical touch while Amazons are very aggressive and nippy during mating season. I know of breeder, who has a mating pair of Double Yellow headed Amazon and he can stick his hands insider their cage on or off breeding season and both the male and female will instantly step up and ask for head scratches and never show any sort of aggression. Though generalization is a good blue print of what to expect for a specific species, we as humans need to respect and learn our parrot's behaviour to understand what they are communicating with us and the boundaries they are drawing for each day as it can change from hour to hour.

can't argue with that!!! Especially when it comes to U2s lol

 

[bigfellasdad]

My take on biting.

I see 4 scenarios where they bite, this is from experience of Enzo, a cockatiel and many budgies. Im probably wrong but again, this is my take.

1. Fear. Check body language for this, if they are fearful of something they can just fly away, but if they see somebody from the flock that doesn't see what ever they are fearful of, they will lunge bite and fly away, I think this is a 'get out of here NOW' message. I get nips like this from Enzo when I am brushing or hoovering as Enzo HATES them....so that's about 12 times a day!

2. When they have been giving you signs that they don't want the attention or don't want you involved in what ever they are doing, and you totally ignore the signs, then you get a nip for your negligence. Read the body language.

3. Playing, this is more specific to Enzo, when she gets super excited she wants to play fight and will initiate the fight. All the signs are of super aggression and she will literally run at me fluffed to the full, wings raised and lunge bite me, but its not a bite, just a beak.... she literally laughs out loud when doing this and wants me to play fight back.

4. They simply doesn't like that person at this point, you can work on this by socialising the bird with the person more and keep your fingers crossed that things over time improve.

I can honestly say i've never had an aggression bite from Enzo, and the nips ive had are generally my fault and she has never used the side of her beak on me. My brother had a terrible bite when she used the side of her beak and literally took a piece of his hand off, this is when she didn't know him and he interrupted her playtime. Don't get me wrong im never complacent with her and im constantly watching her mood and body language as I know what she is capable of. When she is triggered like that, shes in her cage for a time out, most likely hormones with her.....

HTH

 

[texsize]

I have been wanting to comment on this thread but I don't have a TAG I have a CAG.

I am kind of a newcomer with African grey's (4 years more/less) I have been dealing with puberty.

When I first got Bella she loved everyone and I could give her scratches.
Since puberty she has picked my wife as her most favorite human and I am no longer allowed the privilege of scratching her.
She doesn't bite but pushes my fingers away with increasing force. I guess she might bite if I pressed the issue but I know when I am not wanted.

My son and I make acceptable servants, can pick her up and let her ride around on our shoulder but she is more likely to bite my son then me.

The one place she is nippy is when feeding her and she is in her cage. She plays catch the finger for keeps and you have to be fast and careful. Even my wife will get nipped.

When I do push Bella (trying to get her to step up when she does not want to) she does not bite, she has another trick that shows her intelligence.
She lowers her head and fluffs up her neck feathers asking me to give her scratches.
She knows I can't resist and she is so cute I usually let her be and wait till she is more ready to step up.

 

[bigfellasdad]

Spot on that tex