Need help, bird is upsetting whole family

notsohappy

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Aug 5, 2020
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Hello

I realize this is a bird forum and people are likely going to side with the bird but i am genuinely coming here for suggestions and assistance. My wife and I have had birds growing up, love birds and cockatiels, but now we have a pineapple conure and it is tearing us apart. The bird loves my wife and only tolerates me which i am truly fine with and think it is adorable how much it loves her. But it simply has "no chill" and is constantly screaming at the top of its lungs, and if you dont pay attention to it while its screaming it changes to a different tone and tries to get louder until you finally come say hi to it again and the second you turn away its right back at it. I imagine you know what these birds sound like but picture that missile siren alarm that the iphones have, it screams at that consistency almost non stop and at a literal ear piercing level. Currently it is in a rather large indoor cage that we have situated in our living room as that is where we spend a majority of our time when we are in the house. Now ultimately i feel like if it could be a free flying bird of the house it would likely be significantly quieter and happier but we have 2 dogs and 2 cats and although the cats dont seem to care about the bird, the dogs cant seem to be around it without wanting to bite at it, and it likely doesnt help that the bird will go after the cats and dogs as well by dive bombing them and has bitten one of the dogs on the nose pretty hard before (the dog is for sure holding a grudge). Im not sure if this is relevant but the wings are not clipped as we want the bird to be able to be a bird and do what birds do, fly. So we have gotten in to the routine of putting the dogs in a bedroom when we have the bird out so there are no casualties, but that isnt always easy to do and doesn't give the bird a whole lot of time to be out in a day. And then when it is caged if we are both in the living room it is somewhat quiet about 50% of the time, but we cant just live in our living room and it is not practical to put it in a small carry case and move it from room to room with us. especially since apparently everything in our kitchen is hazardous to the bird and just cooking with a flying pan on the oven can kill it if done wrong? Even last night we tried to go for a short walk to our mailbox which is 2 properties down along side a very busy highway. We could hear the bird the entire way, and it wasn't just a muffled quiet barely hear it. No, we could full on hear it as if it was in the other room with the door shut, over all of the non stop car and semi traffic.

So... I am looking for suggestions on what the experienced people of this community can recommend we try or do. Basically I am at my wits end with the constant screaming, my wife is starting to get a little irritated with it but she is much more tolerant than I am and she truly loves this bird so she is managing much better than I am. We do not want to get rid of it but we can't let it free fly around the house or one of the dogs will for sure kill it. We cant move its cage in to a bedroom or it will not stop screaming. we cant leave the living room or it will not stop screaming. The bird is by far the newest addition to the family at about 1.5 years now we have had it, dogs about 7, cats 8 years so we are not getting rid of them either. So I assume there is nothing that can be done other than get rid of it, but hopefully someone has run in to a situation similar and found something that could work, I feel its separation anxiety is getting worse rather than better over time. So maybe it can live in an outdoor cage and bring it in during the night? this would only work in the summer as we live in Canada and i imagine these birds dont do well in -30 celcius? Maybe clipping the wings will calm it down a bit? Maybe there are training exercises that will work to calm it down? Maybe i can make a birdio out one of our windows and it can be an outside bird like that and we just open the window to let it back in? I have no idea here. The only things that seem to work is if we are both in the living room, or if we are constantly non stop giving it fresh fruit to eat every 3 minutes but that only works for so long. More than likely we are feeding on its bad behavior and causing this ourselves but we just need some suggestions and help and no, we are not getting rid of the cats or the dogs or me. We have read the non stop "get rid of the husband" "get rid of the dogs" "they cant coexist" etc etc it seems like every bird forum on the internet the people side with the bird and want to get rid of everything else, that is not realistic and is quite sad that people always stoop to that level and guaranteed we will get those responses to this post as well... we are here looking for genuine help and recommendations from people that actually might be able to help our situation before it gets to the point of getting rid of the bird.

Should probably add, we have tried the whole add more toys more toys to the cage, it has several toys in its 6' tall cage right now..everytime we try adding more the bird will go to the farthest corner from all of the new stuff and sit there and scream for days not eating or drinking unless we remove the new toys.. we cant even replace an old toy with the exact same toy but new and not chewed apart without it throwing about a 24 hour temper tantrum and not eating or drinking or moving anywhere in the cage.

Also one thing we have read is that they do better in pairs, although i hate this idea, would getting a second conure that can live in the cage with it help? Maybe they can bond together and it would be happier? My fear is that they would feed off one another and one would scream and then the other would and it would just worsen the situation?

Thank you for all the genuine people that can offer genuine help to our situation.
 
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noodles123

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Jul 11, 2018
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Welcome and take a deep breath. This can work. You are going to be okay if you are patient and put in the work (with the proper knowledge). I have a cockatoo who could be heard 2-3 blocks away with the doors/windows shut when I first got her. Jet engine loud....we are in a much better place these days, although she is still unbearably loud when she wants to be.

1. How much sleep does your bird get nightly?
2. How old is your bird?
3. What is its diet?
4. Does anyone pet the bird anywhere other than the head and neck?
5. Does the bird have access to huts, tents, boxes, tee-pees, shadowy spaces etc?
6. How do you react to the screaming? Reactions include: vocalizations, proximity, contact, facial expressions/eye contact etc.
7. Where is your bird's cage located within the home in comparison to the main hub of activity?
8. When was the bird seen by an avian certified vet (CAV)? A sudden behavior shift can be medical- if you haven't had blood-work etc done, you should, because even a perfectly healthy bird should (as a baseline)
9. How long has this been going on?
10. How much interaction/ out-of-cage-time does he get daily?
11. Any new pets or major changes to your home recently? New work schedules etc etc?
12. Do you have any play-stands and have you done any target or spot training?


Also, YOUR BIRD IS SCARED OF THE TOYS...LOL!!!
It's freaking out! You are scaring it by adding all of these "monsters" to its home..You NEVER just plop a new toy into a cage like that. That's not his fault. Imagine a terrifying monster in your home...would you do much sleeping or eating??? The "same" toy to you is not the "same" toy to your bird. They see details and color that we do not and their survival depends on their ability to notice small changes (unlike humans). You need to be sensitive to this, even if you think it is silly, because it is quite serious for your bird and no amount of human "logic" will change your bird's mind. Everything needs to be super gradual and slow...Week 1...toy is in the room like 10 feet away. You model playing with it, 10 feet away. Week 2, move it a few feet closer for another week....week 3, a few more...eventually, you set it by the cage but NOT in the cage...until things have calmed down enough for you to move to that point.

Under no circumstance should you get a bird for your bird, especially given the situation. DO NOT DO IT.

having birds growing up is often full of misinformation etc-- so start re-teaching yourself because what was known then is so different now. I had birds too and we did a lot of things the wrong way. If you want your bird to be happy, you have to make a lot of changes and keep educating yourself. They are more like kids with special needs than pets. They are super super smart, highly observant, very sensitive to change, very good at hiding illness, very easily altered through hormonal stimulation (touching sexually or providing shadowy spaces), and they need a sleep schedule...bedtime and wake-up...12 hours...If you fail to provide adequate sleep, you will have a hormonal and cranky bird with an unstable immune system and a sketchy attitude.

If your bird is screaming (WITHOUT the toys that are scaring it to death) then that is likely for attention. LIKELY....The fear screaming with the toys is different, but if scary toys are out of the picture and you see that the bird screams when you turn your back etc, this is attention.
1. NEVER EVER EVER attend to a bird screaming for attention....again, the toy screams were fear screams....that is totally different..that should not be ignored. You have to be sure that the screaming is attention based if you use the following:
Here was my rule: 1. Always try to prevent screaming by talking to your bird when you are out of sight and by using key-words to narrate your day. I tell my bird what I am doing and this helps her anticipate...They are super smart..They are way smarter than dogs and cats.
If you are going to do something, tell them...using the same words.
If you are leaving for a short period, say "going to the store"
and if longer, try "going to work"
DO THIS EVERY TIME.

Again, when you leave their line of sight, talk to them BEFORE the screaming starts. You can often prevent it this way...Make sure you have no snuggle huts, hidey huts, dark spaces etc around the bird (as these often make behavior much worse) and make sure that NO ONE is petting the bird outside of the head/neck region. This is huge, along with sleep.

Once the attention screaming starts, if you are already in the room, you can leave or stay with your back turned (not sure why you would want to), but NO ONE else should enter. No one else should look at, talk to or talk about the bird..not even other animals!!! DO NOT YELL AT OR ABOUT THE BIRD (they definitely know when you are talking about them)...Do not look at the bird... Once that tantrum screaming starts (again, the attention screaming, not the truly scared toy screaming) you should cut off all eye contact, verbal responses, proximity etc. Start at 5 seconds if it is really bad...Mississippi seconds...1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi etc. Any scream between the time you re-start counting . When you get a solid 5 s of silence, return to the room and using a quiet voice, say, "thanks for getting quiet". You can start at 10 if 5 seems too easy. NO ONE can re-enter the room during a scream-fest under any circumstance, or the bird will feel that his calling achieved the goal...even if someone just came in to grab their phone.
Again, if you are already in the room, you can stay or leave, but no one must enter and no one must talk about or look at the bird.

Why are you allowing the dogs to run free and not the bird, when the bird is by far smarter and would fly upwards of 40 miles a day in the wild (I LOVE DOG, btw)? If anything, you need to divide that time...Totally silly to say your bird has to be locked up b/c your dogs have to be free...especially since dogs have a lower need for activity than birds. I'm trying to say that the dogs should be in crates or outside while the bird is out (cats also need to be away).You committed to care for an animal who needs even more time than they do, but at the very least, you could compromise.
 
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Cagzo

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Jan 14, 2020
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One Pineapple Conure.
Hatched late 2018.
OH heck,I do feel sorry for you. I must have the quietest GCC there is.
The thing Im reading into your problem is that there could be a little too much going on,(dogs and cats) possibly kids?
I have 2 old cats,but you can be sure that my bird knows exactly when they are in or out,so yours may be stressed trying to keep up with where everyone is.

I'm sure someone on here will have some good ideas to resolve this,it would be a shame to give up on what I imagine is an anxious little bird. Good luck.
 

fiddlejen

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Mar 28, 2019
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Sunny the Sun Conure (sept '18, gotcha 3/'19). Mr Jefferson Budgie & Mrs Calliope Budgie (albino) (nov'18 & jan'19). Summer 2021 Baby Budgies: Riker (Green); Patchouli, Keye, & Tiny (blue greywings).
What a very difficult situation.

IF IF you were to not-keep this bird... do you have someone in mind whom you know they could care for it? Or would you be just taking it to an animal rescue or listing online?
IF IF there is someone whom you know could love and care for this bird in a more bird-safe home (ie no cat no dogs nor other dangerous animals etc) -- where the bird could have more freedom and be the #1 pet in the home -- that could be a good idea.

Otherwise you will need to work with what you have.

There is a quietness game I have with my sun conure which has worked really well. It is like Noodles quietness training plan but a little different. Think of the childhood game of Stop And Go. (It will probably work best if your wife, as the favorite-person, begins implementing it. But you will all need to do it, frequently and consistently. In fact, to begin with it will be a good response when birdie starts screaming and you Would Have Otherwise been tempted to try handing Bird a please-shut-up-treat. (By the way, you do realize at this point that BIRD HAS ACTUALLY TRAINED YOU to DISPENSE TREATS ON COMMAND.))

This is how it works:

--Birdie clearly wants attention. Bird is making NOISE for attention. You respond by Turning your Back and Moving Away, to opposite side of the room. Preferably holding a favorite treat. ( In the game of Stop and Go, the goal is to reach the person.) You will go to opposite side of room and start with your back to bird. AT the BEGINning, even One INSTANT of Quietness is enough for you to turn toward bird (treat clearly visible!) and start to approach (step by small step). SOFT SOUNDS are Also Okay. BUT the moment a LOUD noise occurs, you must IMMEDIATLY Turn your BACK and "freeze". (Keeping the treat visible is a good idea...)

--After freezing, IF bird can't figure out to be quiet again for a moment, you might try making Soft Sounds at bird for a clue.

--Using this "Stop And Go" method, YOUR GOAL is to move yourself to the Bird and Deliver the Treat. HOWEVEFR YOU can ONLY MOVE at moments of QUIETNESS or Soft Sounds. (YOU or whoever is playing this game with the bird.) Eventually you lengthen the Time of quietness required for you to move. Your bird will probably catch on to this quickly. Bird will like this becauwe YOU are the PLAYER, bird Controls Your Action by being quiet. (Remember birds are control-freaks. They like to be in-charge. So Bird will LIke this game, once bird figures it out.)

--This will help train the bird to quietness --- AND it will help train You and Your Family Members (who must all learn to play this game) -- to Reward Quietness More Than Noisiness.

Also, initiate the Stop-Go-Game at times when bird is already quiet or making Soft Sounds - but do NOT turn your Back Until OR Unless Bird makes a LOUD noise. This will give bird incentive to be more Quiet as a form of begging-behavior. (Birds Understand the body-language of Back Turned = not happy. In fact if bird turns back to you it Might mean same thing!)

Also work on things like singing softly to bird etc so Bird can LEarn Nice Soft Sounds.

By the way -- Please Do NOT EVER clip THIS bird as long as there is a Cat (or even a dog) in the house.

Read some books on Target Training for Birds. Even if you do not apply all the techniques, the concepts will help you greatly in interacting.

There is lots more good info as well. Most likely your bird, along with everything else, is probably hormonal. So follow all the guidelines for reducing hormonal-ness. (Ie no shady spots, definitely no hidey huts, LIMIT strongly LIMIT sweet foods like fruit, etc etc.)

Another thing to remember. Bird body language is opposite mammal body language in this important way: Bird Fluffed-UP (IF NOt Cold nor Sick) usually means happy & relaxed, Bird Slick & Smooth means Flight-Ready, so quite likely stressed-afraid-unhappy.
 
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Jottlebot

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Aug 29, 2012
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Oh my goodness, wow wow wow!!! I think we can all hear (well read) the desperation in your words and understand the impact this is having on all your lives.

Thank you for reaching out, especially with the expectation that we would possibly all jump down your throat and tell you off and all be on the bird's side! We're pretty reasonable...OK, well we can be pretty reasonable... OK, well sometimes we can be pretty reasonable... OK, look, we're bird people, we're DIFFERENT from 'normal' folks! That being said though, you are clearly working hard for this little monster and want what is best for everyone involved and that is rarely going to enrage the Parrot Forum collective

The ideas above are great! I will add that your bird has learnt the screaming as a way to behave to get it what it wants. Unfortunately you have all developed a cycle where you have to "give in" when the pitch reaches unbearable and this just teaches your bird that rather than starting at volume 3 it should start at 9 and increase until it works.

I think both of the techniques above will work, but you have to be 100% consistent for say, 2 weeks or so. I would genuinely buy some noise cancelling headphones - although you still need to hear the silence so you can reward. It's going to be unpleasant. Animals (and people for that matter) who have learnt that a certain behaviour leads to a certain response are likely to exaggerate the behaviour when they realise that all of a sudden it isn't working. "It will get worse before it gets better" is really true in this case. You need to be able to persist when it gets harder for a while because you will come out the other end.

What you mustn't do is to try for a day or two and then give in to the screaming once and go into the room or give a treat or whatever (because it's late, or you have a headache, or you're just so damn tired of that unending noise!!!!!!). Rewarding the behaviour inconsistently is actually the best way to ensure a learnt behaviour sticks around, because the animal realises that they just need to do it enough and they will get the reward. It's very motivating.

I don't think the other solutions like an outside aviary, having the bird with you all the time, letting it free fly around the house and certainly not another bird would solve the problem at all. My understanding is that this is a learnt behaviour, that usually works out really well for your bird and you need to teach it that it no longer works while also giving it a desirable way to still earn rewards (by being quiet).
 

noodles123

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Jul 11, 2018
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Umbrella Cockatoo- 15? years old..I think?
When ignoring a behavior, it often gets WORSE before it gets better, so DO NOT give in. This is called an extinction burst and it happens with humans and birds. When you ignore attention screaming, it WILL get worse before it gets better and the worst thing you can do is break at this time...If you give in, you become an attention slot machine, and there is a reason people are addicted to gambling (Jottlebot mentions this above) One misstep and you will make the behavior all the much harder to break.

Imagine you could push a button and get money. You push the button, and you eventually get money...One day, you start pushing the button and no money appears....You are going to slam and kick that button because, historically, you know what happens when you hit it enough times...

These earplugs work well and without them, you may find your will-power fading. NO ONE can break during this time...not even the kids. Heck, even the dogs could be reinforcing this behavior. You need to be certain that no living being enters the room or reacts when this is going on. You can also give a treat when you praise for getting quiet, but ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) dictates that the "reward" should match the purpose or function of the behavior, so if your bird is doing this for attention, attention should be the primary reward, although you can also give a treat at the same time. That having been said, a treat is a tangible. so you need to make sure attention is in the foreground.

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wrench13

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10000% correct - everyone must do this and must be totally consistent every time.

On top of erything else, at 1-1/2 yrs old, your conure is likely going into or is already going thru puberty, which adds its own little ( or big) complications. But you and the family are really going to have to want to change your behavior in order to change your conures behavior. Its going to help if you look at it this way:

Its never the fault of the parrot
Its always the fault of the human.
 

Laurasea

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Aug 2, 2018
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Hi,
The great people on this forum have given yiu very good advice.
Green cheek conures aren’t known as screamers, but every parrot can be...
When did the screaming start?

I’m going to link this great article on stress in parrots, it covers so much. One of the things it suggested is doing observations. Not looking and seeing what you expect , but making the effort to do more of a scientific observation. You may be very surprised at the screaming triggers yiu see.... I had a problem between my GCC and my parakeets, I decided to do some observations. What I discovered is I actually had a problem with my Quaker harassing my GCC , sbd then she took it out on the parakeets !!! Also this article talks about pattering to music, and shaping behavior. The author uses a clicker to shape behavior, I hate clickers and they are a pain to always have on hand. Using one phrase like good birdie ( as the bridge) then giving the treat works fine for me. Shaping behavior is what everyone above is talking about, but fir me it helps to have that in my mind that I’m shaping behavior. And shaping behavior works in small steps like you are shaping clay. It doesn’t happen all st once.
https://lafeber.com/pet-birds/stress-reduction-for-parrot-companions/

Parrots are social, and capable of getting along with extended flock family. So while your wife is the SO , yiu should still be able to have a relationship with your bird... one thing that won’t go over well is public displays of affection with your wife in front of the birdie, no way that will fire! Or you horning in on wife and burd cuddles... but yiu can develop a good relationship with him/her

Screaming is a frustrated parrot. Toys aren’t toys if they don’t play with them... GCC need a lot of social contact, and ways to burn off energy. On toys, GCC like to untie knots, make a string of loose knots on burd safe leather, or shoe lace, or other safe stuff.... use a shirt stout cup and fill with plastic bottle caps, have safflower seeds hidden in the bottoms. Provide easy to shred and destroy stuff, like that shredders roll the sell that you can weave throu the cage bars, or those yucca chips .

Reward good behavior! We all tend to ignore good behavior and only pay attention to bad behavior... so tell how good they are when quiet, when playing with toys
 

1oldparroter

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Nov 4, 2019
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I am 71, married and fairly private. I have PM privileges but prefer the phone. Printed messages, are so limited. jh
Make sure the bird gets enough sleep! Get it into a sleeping cage and room and put cone sided foam panels (for sound proofing) around the upper walls. Get a perch or two to place in different rooms and let it follow you. Concentrate on training (clicker/stick, etc).
Watch youtube.com video's and search parrot training. Also that it has a proper diet (cut out the sugary fruits),even if you google for the info. Develop a routine. Remove "ALL" toys that haven't been chewed on. Everyone has to participate and adhere to the program. NO petting, except to the head and neck area. On youtube.com you can search wingsNpaws, bird trix and several others. IT IS GOING TO BE A 'JOB". These guys will help you A LOT. jh
 
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notsohappy

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Hey everyone, thank you so much for the well thought out responses. We do appreciate everything that has been suggested and by the sounds of it there is no quick fix, its about to be a long bumpy road to the light at the end of the tunnel. To try and answer a few of your questions, i believe the bird is around 3.5 years old approximately so we got it when i believe it was about 2 years old, it has been to the vet within the last year i believe and we know it is male and healthy. It is getting in the area of 10 - 12 hours of sleep a night, we cover its cage but do not move it in to a different cage for the night. The yelling is usually the worst in the morning from the time it is uncovered until my wife leaves for work, it seems to be about a 2 or 3 hours alarm clock that you cant turn off and your ears will start ringing and feeling like they could actually bleed some days and this is when it upsets me the most and causes fights among us. The diet usually consists of fresh fruits and veggies at dinner, and some (what i call) bird kibble? in the mornings. Those little round colorful pellets and a small ball of seeds glued together with honey or some binding agent. There are no huts etc inside the cage and i do not believe there are any shady sections of the cage. No one is petting it anywhere beside the head and neck, it will not let me pet it anywhere as it just flies to my shoulder or back to its cage, and although it clearly loves and adores my wife, it bites her if she tries to scratch its neck, it has to rub its neck on her hand or finger but if she moves her finger it bites her. This yelling has been an ongoing thing for well basically the whole time we have had it aside from the first month or two. We did recently move to a new house and i know this is likely very stressful for it and the yelling is slightly worse than normal but its only maybe 5 - 10% worse than normal right now otherwise i would say that the stress of the move was the issue. This has definitely been going on well before we moved so i don't think this is a major contributing factor, if anything it seems very minor. It is not spot trained, when it is out of the cage it is basically glued to my wife. If she leaves the room it flies after her, if shes in the room its hiding in her hair or rubbing against her cheek or crawling in to her hand if she touches her thumb and pointer finger together. If the wife is not home when I let it out it will sit on my shoulder and occasionally gets excited if i am eating or drinking and wants what i am having, but typically if i make any sudden movements or walk through a doorway etc it will fly back to its cage. What i am surprised it has not learned is that I work from home (out in the shop) but i come in to the house several times a day and usually have an hour or two before the wife comes home where i try to let it out with just me but it just flies back to its cage so i have essentially "given up" on trying to make friends with it and letting it out for that period of time.

So anyways, by the sounds of it we should look at changing the diet to more vegetables? possibly move it to a different night time cage and try to give it a couple more hours of sleep every night. And then try to get it out of the cage more often and for longer periods, and then of course start the long journey of trying to train it that we will react when it is quiet and not when it is loud. We can try to slowly adjust it to new toys as well to see if we can add more toys to the cage as it definitely has a lot of space in the cage so we could easily double or triple the amount of toys it has if we can get it to not have a melt down.
 
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notsohappy

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ALRIGHTY! This is likely the last time i will ever be on here, this memory just crossed my mind about this and i figured i would give a little update!

So, since posting..things are good now, I befriended the conure! What ended up working is i typically sit closest to the bird when we are eating meals and it always comes down to the closest corner of its cage to try and beg for food... and i started giving it tiny little pieces of whatever i was eating that is safe for them to eat (a lot of googling "can a conure eat _____" happened for a while). This has resulted in the bird loving me now and it will fly over to me immediately any time it is out and groom my hair and nestle in behind my head on the couch and fly after me everywhere. BUT now it does still really like my wife but it has a tendency to bite her quite hard now, she can't even scratch its neck without it puffing up and charging her finger with its beak wide open, whereas with me it wont even try to bite me if i hold it in my hand and spin it upside down, scratch its neck, etc.. So things sort of switched for us. And we have managed to introduce the bird to our dogs and now the cats, dogs, and bird all get along and can cohabitate in the same house. This has definitely made the bird happier and reduced the screaming significantly! But now this whole time we thought the dogs might try and attack the bird and never once thought the other way around but this little bird will fly at our pitbull and send him running away! So there are still a few things to iron out but all in all, things are a lot better now!

Anyways though, enough of the rant. Food seemed to be the key to this birds heart. Thanks everyone!
 

Calculations

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I have a budgie I've considered a teil in the future but it won't be anytime soon I'd like to gain more experience before I get any more birds.
So I can't give advice on this because I've not experienced this before but what I want to mention is your anxiety. People are very protective over animals especially the bird communities. But protection can come with downsides like someone's what people say is exaggerated due to fear and projection. That doesn't mean the concerns aren't valid. Having the bird directly inside the kitchen is bad I agree and it's dangerous but not "Everything" will kill your bird for example if you have smelly's in your home your birds not going to suddenly drop dead. Just don't have your bird directly in the same room as the smelly's and have a way for the room to be ventilated. The other thing I wanted to mention is I feel like some people blame way too quickly and that blame leads people to not want to explain their situations which doesn't help the education process it just pushes people into a corner and makes them afraid to get help.
I've worked in peer-based (Non-professional) support chats for 7 years and I say this from experience.
I'm not going to blame you unless you're willingly putting a bird in harm's way and most people aren't intentionally trying to do harm. Most mistakes are simply mistakes and people forget they make them too and everything we do is based on experience if you never made mistakes you wouldn't be human. We learn from our mistakes that is how we become better at taking care of ourselves, those around us, and our pets. So never be afraid or worried those who judge are ignorant and likely made some too somewhere down the road. You'll figure this out and you'll find a way it may be a challenge and hard but you can do this it's never impossible but sometimes it feels impossible.
 

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