Painted conures feet issues

[Tezcaltipoca]

I need some advice guys. I've already spent $400 trying to help my poor painted conure quetzie... He got bitten by my Quaker when he escaped and since then he's had nothing but issues. He went on antibiotics and suddenly his opposite foot went swollen and he started tapping it. We got tramadol and triamophine (whatever it's called) and that was working until he looked good enough and was put back into a normal cage as opposed to resting in a tub flat on shredded paper. Within days his feet deteriorated and he went back to the tub. The problem is he keeps biting his feet and now the first foot is swollen again, the meds are not working. We are out of tramadol and that foot has a black toe. He bit it so much there's a gash under it like its about to fall out. I've been to three vets and nothing is helping. I tried covering the feet but he bites everything off. I tried a collar but he bit off the feathers around it. He's already lost two toes from the Quaker attack and bone is showing on the back one. There was bone on the other toe but he bit it clean off. I put colloidal silver on his feet to try to disinfect him... He's going back to the vet again tomorrow but at this point I have no idea what to do.

The picture is the most recent I have but the longest toe on the left has turned black and has the gash under it. It used to be turned in like arthritis but it straightened as it went black

 

[Tezcaltipoca]

and here's the other picture I have

 

[SailBoat]

I need some advice guys. I've already spent $400 trying to help my poor painted conure quetzie... He got bitten by my Quaker when he escaped and since then he's had nothing but issues. He went on antibiotics and suddenly his opposite foot went swollen and he started tapping it. We got tramadol and triamophine (whatever it's called) and that was working until he looked good enough and was put back into a normal cage as opposed to resting in a tub flat on shredded paper. Within days his feet deteriorated and he went back to the tub. The problem is he keeps biting his feet and now the first foot is swollen again, the meds are not working. We are out of tramadol and that foot has a black toe. He bit it so much there's a gash under it like its about to fall out. I've been to three vets and nothing is helping. I tried covering the feet but he bites everything off. I tried a collar but he bit off the feathers around it. He's already lost two toes from the Quaker attack and bone is showing on the back one. There was bone on the other toe but he bit it clean off. I put colloidal silver on his feet to try to disinfect him... He's going back to the vet again tomorrow but at this point I have no idea what to do.

The picture is the most recent I have but the longest toe on the left has turned black and has the gash under it. It used to be turned in like arthritis but it straightened as it went black

As part of an Avian Certified Vet visit, that class of Vets commonly provide a 'written' report of the findings of that visit, any recommendations for home treatment and/or medications recommended, and that is provided to you and reviewed prior to your leaving.

I'm guessing, based on what you are doing that it is likely that you are not seeing an ACV. Every the Avian Qualified Vet that I have visited always provided very specific recommendations for home treatment and specific medication and how to apply it.

It looks like very little if anything was provided and/or recommended by any of the Vets you have visited. If they did define what was causing the issue and if they did make specific recommendations /medications what was provided?

In addition, when a Vet recommends specific medications, they state very clearly how much, where and when and, for how long. It is very possible that you halted application early. Plus any signs of worsening, requires that you contact them ASAP.

FYI: When you encounter Medical Problem that is not resolved at a general care level, you go up to Specialists targeting ever more precise practices.

You need to drive the visit tomorrow getting precise answers that you are writing down and asking about specialists support services.

I have a fairly good idea what you are faced with and you need more than a General Care Vet Services.

 

[Tezcaltipoca]

The first I went to was one general vet, the second was a certified avian vet at blue pearl. I had heard they like to do a lot of unnessasary tests to get more money and they immediately suggested an X-ray as opposed to a blood test. That's who gave me the tramadol and the current medicine. The avian vet at the first place is going to see him tomorrow and the other avian vet in the area is gone until the 14th leaving us with the general or blue pearl. He was improving until he was placed back into a normal cage with bars. Once in the cage he kept slipping and biting at his toes again which made him worse. Thing is the avian vet at blue pearl said it wasn't necessary to keep him flat, and clearly being on bars agitated his feet worse. That's when he got the gash on the toe. Still no blood tests done and the only time we saw improvement was when he was on tramadol. He would sleep most of the time and his feet were healing. But unfortunately that ran out

I should note the last time the vet saw him he said the bird was fine. It was after he was put back into a normal cage he started to rapidly deteriorate, so obviously he cannot be on bars. Unfortunately he has a habit of latching vertically on the bars in a barred cage and cannot be prevented from doing so if he has that option. Keeping him flat keeps that weight off

 

[SailBoat]

The first I went to was one general vet, the second was a certified avian vet at blue pearl. I had heard they like to do a lot of unnessasary tests to get more money and they immediately suggested an X-ray as opposed to a blood test. That's who gave me the tramadol and the current medicine. The avian vet at the first place is going to see him tomorrow and the other avian vet in the area is gone until the 14th leaving us with the general or blue pearl. He was improving until he was placed back into a normal cage with bars. Once in the cage he kept slipping and biting at his toes again which made him worse. Thing is the avian vet at blue pearl said it wasn't necessary to keep him flat, and clearly being on bars agitated his feet worse. That's when he got the gash on the toe. Still no blood tests done and the only time we saw improvement was when he was on tramadol. He would sleep most of the time and his feet were healing. But unfortunately that ran out

Blue Pearl Vet Care groups seem to have a less than honest business plan.

I could see both Blood Testing and an X-ray in combination with this type of injury /infection. But not one without the other.

Clearly, the Tamadol was working with or in combination with the other medication. You need to take the empty containers with you tomorrow.

The condition of your Parrot's feet are at a level that a flat surfaces is likely all that your Parrot is able to be on.

 

[Tezcaltipoca]

I thought it was weird the blood wasn't worked on and when I took him to blue pearl it was the other leg that was tapping while swollen. I'm pretty sure being on the bars hurt something in his feet like a pressure point in the foot hurts.. Which leaves me to believe a pinched nerve or nerve damage. He's been living in the tub but without that tramadol he just doesn't relax. I tried to keep his gf around him but she just agitated him even more so now she's out of sight for the time being. I wish the other avian vet was back before the 14th but we basically need answers tomorrow

I wrote down some possible ailments to mention to the vet

Gout
Avian herpes
Nerve damage
Bumble foot


But you'd think the antibiotic would be keeping the infection away. It had disappeared before he went back to the cage. What do you guys speculate that I could mention to the vet? None of my other birds are sick including his gf

 

[SailBoat]

I thought it was weird the blood wasn't worked on and when I took him to blue pearl it was the other leg that was tapping while swollen. I'm pretty sure being on the bars hurt something in his feet like a pressure point in the foot hurts.. Which leaves me to believe a pinched nerve or nerve damage. He's been living in the tub but without that tramadol he just doesn't relax. I tried to keep his gf around him but she just agitated him even more so now she's out of sight for the time being. I wish the other avian vet was back before the 14th but we basically need answers tomorrow

I wrote down some possible ailments to mention to the vet

Gout
Avian herpes
Nerve damage
Bumble foot


But you'd think the antibiotic would be keeping the infection away. It had disappeared before he went back to the cage. What do you guys speculate that I could mention to the vet? None of my other birds are sick including his gf

If this all started with his foot become damaged by himself or his gf and has expanded and now includes the other foot. An infection is more likely. Without proper testing, providing a general antibiotic could be little more than a band aid. Blood testing for what type of infection is a proper starting place.

At this point, clearly there is Nerve Damage cause by the self-inflicted damage.

The combination of pain and the healing process has you Parrot working the injury sites even more. So, you will likely see a combination of the proper medication to fight the likely infection(s), you will also be providing a pain medication. You will likely be providing at least three different medications.

Get it in writing, even if you need to write it down. But, there is no good reason for a Vet not to provide a written report.

logging out now!

 

[wrench13]

Nothing to add, except a prayer that your baby finds the healing thats desperately needed.

 

[Tezcaltipoca]

Thanks for the help guys, I will keep you posted.

He didn't sleep last night, he decided to bite the opposite foot til it bled (as opposed to the swollen one for some reason). He is now with the vet and we will probably be doing a sort of blood test today.

There is a possibility he was born with a problem. When i got him he had a bad shoulder and cannot fly straight. The bone seems to stick out on that side with the bad wing, leading me to believe it further grew wrong. Basically he would have probably been put down if I had not taken him in. He had been tugging at the feathers on that opposite foot for the past year, so we had worried it was because of his girlfriend being a bit too...her-ish (shes kind of moody at times) or he was unhappy in that particular cage. When he excaped and got bitten he was given an antibiotic but that opposite foot acted up all of a sudden with absolutely zero physical cues. It wasn't swollen and looked fine, but he wasn't just holding it up, he was stomping it and running frantically around the cage. I had thought he had something neurologically wrong with him at that point, but with the tramadol and trimethoprim he started to improve. He had been on biomox but the community I was in thought the foot stomping was him allergic to it for some reason (even though hes been on it before). The tramadol calmed him down and let him sleep. He started to heal but then I was told at that point he was fine so he was put back into that cage...and he deteriorated very fast. It makes me wonder if there was something already in that cage because it was a new cage. His girlfriend is still in that cage and shes fine, but she didnt have any cuts on her foot. At this point nothing works to get him to stop biting the feet and the black toe is going to clearly fall off. I will be talking to the vet after work today and see what can be done.

 

[EllenD]

Hello, welcome, and I'm very sorry that your bird is going through this. At this point you definitely need to see only a certified avian vet, and absolutely need blood work done, if for no other reason than to see what his white cell count is and to determine how bad the infections are.

He absolutely needs to be on a flat surface and no bars or a regular cage at all. The bars caused him pain, which is why he started chewing his feet again. He's probably got a ton of neuropathic pain in both of his feet and that is why he is chewing them. Tramadol is a synthetic opiate agonist, so if his chewing slowed or stopped while taking the Tramadol then he's in a lot of pain. It's a very good idea that he be on a stronger pain killer that has sedative properties, like Tramadol, because he needs to give his feet time to heal, and any antibiotics, antifungals, steroids, etc. that he's given need time to work fully without him chewing on them. A certified avian vet may try to switch him to Metacam for pain, but I would press the point that Metacam is an NSAID (COX2 Inhibitor) with antiinflammatory properties, but the Tramadol is ideal because it is a much stronger pain reliever, a much stronger sedative, and it successfully stops his pain and is the only med that has successfully stopped his pain, which is evident because he doesn't chew his feet when on it. It's probably best that as far as pain control/sedation/swelling he's on Tramadol combined with either an NSAID or a steroid like Prednisone.

At this point he has necrotic tissue (the black tissue) and most likely that will need at best debrided and at worst cut out/off to prevent it from making his entire foot worse. That tissue is most likely dead, though they should debride it a bit to see if there is healthy tissue/bone underneath, and he'll definitely need another x-ray to look at the bone, not only in the area of the necrotic tissue but at all the bone in both feet to see what the health of the bone is, and to see if infection has spread into the bone.

I would certainly hope at this point the vet would take a culture of both feet and do a Culture and Sensitivity to determine what type of bacteria is causing his infections, and most importantly what antibiotics will kill that bacteria. This is crucial! It really bothers me when vets and doctors just guess what bacteria or fungus is causing an infection and in-turn they guess what antibiotic or antifungal to give the patient...They need to be exact and get the correct meds to clear this up! Colloidal Silver is a great choice that can only help, another topical option is Unpasteurized Honey, it is a natural topical antibiotic and antifungal. But honestly at this point it's very urgent that they properly diagnose the bug or bugs that are causing his infections and get him on the proper antibiotics, antifungals, etc.

Honestly, I believe in your bird's case, in order to completely clear him up, it's crucial for them to #1) Do a culture followed by a Sensitivity test to determine what bugs are causing his infections and get him on the proper meds (along with proper dosages), possibly give him a starter injection of a broad-spectrum antibiotic in the meantime to get him going while waiting for the culture and sensitivity and the blood work, and do an x-ray to determine what parts of his feet/legs are still non-necrotic...#2) Properly and Totally Control His Pain. He will start chewing his feet as soon as he feels pain, he's already proven that, and if he chews them they will never heal. It's already been established that Tramadol works very well for him as an opiate agonist painkiller, so he should be kept on the Tramadol (make sure they give you plenty and the proper dosage that's been working for him), and they should add either an antiinflammatory or a steroid along with the Tramadol to control swelling.

In the meantime you need to keep him out of a regular cage. He needs to be on a completely flat surface that is easily disinfected and that won't hurt his feet. If you aren't already using Hibiclens to clean the container you're keeping him in I would go get some, it is a great wound disinfectant, way better than Betadine, you can clean his feet with a mixture of Hibiclens and water, and make a spray bottle of a mix of Hibiclens and water for easy daily disinfecting of his container, toys, etc. I'd use only paper towels as a substrate at the bottom of his container and change them as soon as they are dirtied.

I wish you the best, please ask the vet every question you have, and demand they properly diagnose his feet.

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[GaleriaGila]

I am so sorry for all your darling's troubles, but I am SO GLAD you have experts like the ones HERE to help guide and support you. You sound like a very caring and responsible and determined bird owner. I wish you all the best.

 

[itzjbean]

Great advice from EllenD, nothing to add but sending prayers for your little one!!

 

[EllenD]

Just something to add since I saw your mention of gout, bumblefoot, herpes, and nerve damage, first of all the necrotic tissue is definitely indicative of some type of infection, most likely bacterial or a combo of bacterial and fungal infections. The reason the antibiotics haven't worked so far is two-fold, first off they haven't ever done a culture and sensitivity to determine what bug and/or fungus is causing the infection, and as a result he was probably on the wrong antibiotics, and second when he's in pain he chews his feet, which not only does new damage and causes possible new infections but spreads the existing ones.

Nerve damage has absolutely already occurred, that's part of the reason he keeps chewing his feet. But nerve damage is a symptom, not a cause. The nerve damage will heal or at least stop progressing once the infections are cleared up with the proper meds. He's going to absolutely have permanent nerve damage, numbness, and he will most likely always have trouble walking normally, but he can absolutely live a normal, quality life once the infections are cleared and the ACUTE Pain is resolved.

Herpes is a virus, and while it's always a possibility, it's not probable based on the necrosis, the presentation of the decaying tissue that is causing the necrosis, and the fact that it's localized to his feet and is not presenting as a systemic virus. I'm unaware of a specific herpes virus or any virus that only effects a bird's feet.

Gout is definitely a horribly painful disease that is caused by a build up of uric acid in the bird's system, which results in uric acid crystals in his feet, legs, etc. This again doesn't present like gout because his feet (to the best of my knowledge) did not first extremely swell up. Gout does not present with spreading, decaying tissue.

Bumblefoot is a congenital condition of the bottom of a bird's feet. I've seen it many times, and though some of his symptoms are similar to the symptoms of bumblefoot, it does not present with a spreading necrosis either.

You have to remember that you stated that this all started originally with a bite on his foot from your Quaker parrot. This immediately signals an infection. The fact that it spread to both feet makes total sense because he had pain, he chewed the foot that was bitten, and he then chewed his other foot, spreading the infection. His foot chewing was at first most likely because of the initial pain of the bite wound, and then became a nervous habit. He could have been putting all his weight on his other foot after the bite, and this caused pain to the foot that wasn't bitten, so he chewed that foot, etc. Birds use their beaks for everything, and bacteria will invade an open wound in an instant. Your Quaker parrot may be the carrier for the bacteria, but probably not, he just created an open wound for the bacteria to enter his foot. Think about what birds stand in, step on, etc. and you can easily see how easily a foot with an open wound can become infected.

I'm guessing he's got a very nasty bacterial infection, honestly it presents like a MRSA infection, or at least a bacterial infection that is very progressive and hard to clear. However, that's not necessarily true at all considering your vets have yet to do a culture and sensitivity to determine what bacteria it is and what antimicrobial to treat it with. It may clear right up after a short course of the correct antibiotics, and that's why this is so frustrating and sad. He has permanent damage to his feet and will most likely always have issues with walking and standing, all because they didn't bother to determine what bacteria is causing the infection.

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