REALLY need your advice

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
Long post alert.....

OK guys, really need your help with this. For those of you who don’t know how I acquired Paco here’s a brief summary. I found him through a secondhand rehome site on Facebook. Turns out his owner lives 10 minutes for me. He’s 23 years old single owner bird she hand fed him from a baby. However she has met a few unfortunate bumps in the road in life, divorce, financial issues etc. and felt she wasn’t giving him the attention he needed and deserved. During a few of the more major events in her life he plucked and that showed her that he wasn’t getting what he needed and she finally decided finding him a new home would be best. Enter me and my family. We took him in about two months ago. He’s a great bird. A little bit of plucking since we’ve had him but very minor. I feel for a grey he adjusted very quickly and well to our home. Formed a good relationship with the previous owner from the start. She asked to come see him after two weeks. I could tell she was really struggling without him in her life. I felt incredibly bad and prior to her coming to see him told her if she really was that devastated for giving him up that I would consider giving him back. She never acknowledged it, came to visit, spent 20 minutes with him, a lot of which was in tears, but left saying she couldn’t have found a better home for him. I decided that was that and we have moved on, I have worked very hard with him to help him overcome his fear of things like new toys and new environments. We’ve made great progress. In this past week he has finally decided my three-year-old can be his friend and will kiss her and step up on her arm which brings her a ton of joy.

Then 2 nights ago I get a Facebook message from his previous owner, the short of it being that she has thought about my offer since she came to visit him but with the coronavirus things have been crazy and she knew she couldn’t come over, but she would like to take me up on my offer and take him back. And now I am feeling really torn. I don’t think she has an awful home for him, but I don’t think she is the best for a bird of such high intelligence. I think I could teach her some things that would enable her to provide him a more enriching life like he has been having with us. But I also saw how bonded he was to her when she came to visit him. We are growing attached to him, as I just mentioned my three-year-old is beginning to develop a relationship with him, he’s relating to the different people in my family. What’s eating at me is that I did offer at the very beginning, mainly because that’s the way I was raised and I was doing it out of the goodness of my heart, but now this far into it, which really isn’t that far at all, I feel very torn. She is his original mom. She was for 23 years. I can’t imagine how hard it has been for her to give him up and that breaks my heart. Even though it was a legitimate sale and I bought him per the agreed terms I feel like not giving him back to her is my doing something wrong. And I want to clarify when I say giving I do mean returning for the same price that I paid, if not more since I purchased him a significantly nicer cage and have invested hundreds of dollars in toys for him which would go with him because he enjoys them.

Sorry, this is super long, I’m just trying to get everything out there. I really feel like a part of me is doing something wrong if I don’t allow him to go back to his original owner, but a part of me feels like I’m doing something wrong if I do. One because she’s not the ideal home for an African gray, two because we are growing close to him. Although it wouldn’t devastate me to give him back now in the same way as it has been to her and I think that’s why I feel so torn. Last night I saw a Facebook post of hers where she shared a memory from 2015 of Paco and her comment sharing it was “my life is empty without you”. Several friends commented asking what happened to him and suggested she ask his new home if he could come back to her. It was hard for me to read.

Ok, that’s all I can think to tel you. Please fire away with your thoughts and feelings, advice, whatever. I really feel stuck in this one. Thanks in advance!!!!
 

chris-md

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2010
4,349
2,119
Maryland - USA
Parrots
Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
Well...what a sad situation to be put in. I'm so sorry :( HOw long has Paco been with you

If I were in your shoes (and to be clear: you are not me!), the answer is fairly clear: you offered to give the bird back, she's indicated she wants to take you up on that offer. Assuming we're talking a time lapse of a couple months at most from when the offer was made and she didn't outright reject the offer, I think you should probably return him.

If its been more than 2-3 months, or if her initial answer was "I'm good, thank you", and shes now changing her mind, I would tell politely tell her that the bird has bonded with the family and will be remaining where it is. There was no harm exactly in her asking, you don't get 100% of what you don't ask. But the bird is not in an eternal state of give-backsies either.
 

Laurasea

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2018
12,593
10,702
USA
Parrots
Full house
For me, it would be a no.
The coronavirus thing is making people lonely, making them want something to hang onto.

If she had changed her mind during the first month, I would have but not now.

Plus the parrot , it's not fair to him. Hevadjusted to this big change, he is happy. So I feel the best thing for him and his well being is to stay with you.
 

saxguy64

Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Apr 24, 2018
16,319
Media
4
Albums
3
27,352
Maine, USA
Parrots
Tucker the Red Sided Eclectus
Baxter the YNA
Avery the CAG
Patches the Grand Eclectus, my best friend. RIP
Cuckoo the BFA RIP
Wow, this is a tough one. Lots to consider.

I understand that you want to do what's best for Paco, so, is that going back to his previous owner who made the decision to give him up, or is staying with you better? You know better than we do what you've done for him. It's a lot.

After the covid-19 thing settles down, and life gets back to "normal," will previous owner be a stable home for Paco, or is it possible that they will again be unable to give him the attention he needs, and pass him off yet again? You also have a better feel for this one than we do. We're not there, and don't know the previous owner from a hole in the ground.

My two are both adoptions from a refuge. They've been doing it for a long time. They have a contract when you surrender a bird to them clearly stating that once signed, there is no going back. You relinquish any future rights to the bird. Period. They do this for everyone's protection, as they do have cases like yours where people want their bird back after the refuge has invested in needed vet care and things they didn't/wouldn't/couldn't do for the bird before giving it up.

While I totally understand the dilemma, you have invested money, time, resources, and emotions into a new family member with no expectations of it being temporary.

My two cents anyway. I know it's difficult. Keep us posted.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

Scott

Supporting Member
Aug 21, 2010
32,673
9,789
San Diego, California USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Parrots
Goffins: Gabby, Abby, Squeaky, Peanut, Popcorn / Citron: Alice / Eclectus: Angel /Timneh Grey: ET / Blue Fronted Amazon: Gonzo /

RIP Gandalf and Big Bird, you are missed.
A most difficult decision, there will be no clear winner or absolved consciousness regardless of outcome. So many angles to this dilemma:

- Original owner probably sold prematurely
- You purchased in good faith, assume she did not discuss a buyback at the time of sale?
- What has changed in her life to better manage Paco, other than remorse?
- You and your family have bonded to Paco. A return will result in a loss, though not "devastation."
- You are feeling guilty having discussed with original owner and reading subsequent FB posts
- Not to be overlooked, what is best for Paco? Hard to subjectively evaluate, but reduced plucking is significant factor in your favor.

You are wise seeking opinion beyond yourself as this is a terrible situation. Personally, I'd have a rough time and seek counsel from friends, extending to associates of the seller. If you have a receipt or other document, the legal aspect is rather clear. Ethical considerations are far more vexing.
 

Laurasea

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2018
12,593
10,702
USA
Parrots
Full house
How did he act after she had the visit? Did he go I to a big depression, act like he was greiving her? If after her visit, it was life is fine. Then that's a big answer to you.
 

bigfellasdad

New member
Sep 21, 2017
925
Media
8
20
NorthWest England
Parrots
Enzo - adopted Female CAG circa 2004. A truly amazing young lady!
I would put the bird first I'm afraid. It seems he is now in a much happier place with you guys, who incidentally have done a Stirling job.

When I took enzo in the previous owner would come around weekly and enzo would always great her nicely. Now that has changed as enzo made her decision it seems
 

SailBoat

Supporting Member
Jul 10, 2015
17,646
10,008
Western, Michigan
Parrots
DYH Amazon
Over the many years and many Amazons that have taken-over ownership of our Home. I have had only one prior owner request the return and I turned them down. Yes, it can be seen as hard hearted, but when a Parrot places its trust and Love toward its new home, that should be respected.

Your offer was during the transition and the Parrot had started but not fully committed to the new home. The prior owner left and if I understand correctly, now a couple of months later contacts you on Facebook. Sorry not much into Facebook.

Your family has made a full commitment to this Parrot as has the Parrot...

You have no commitment to the prior owner Legal or otherwise.

Answer, No, we have become family and are committed to being a forever family!

FYI: I'm a strong believer in Microchipping mid to larger Parrots as it serves as a statement of forever commitment!
 
OP
A

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #9
Well...what a sad situation to be put in. I'm so sorry :( HOw long has Paco been with you

If I were in your shoes (and to be clear: you are not me!), the answer is fairly clear: you offered to give the bird back, she's indicated she wants to take you up on that offer. Assuming we're talking a time lapse of a couple months at most from when the offer was made and she didn't outright reject the offer, I think you should probably return him.

If its been more than 2-3 months, or if her initial answer was "I'm good, thank you", and shes now changing her mind, I would tell politely tell her that the bird has bonded with the family and will be remaining where it is. There was no harm exactly in her asking, you don't get 100% of what you don't ask. But the bird is not in an eternal state of give-backsies either.

Thank you for your reply. I agree with a lot of what you said. We have had him just shy of 2 months. The offer was made after having him for 2 weeks when she said she was struggling and asked if she could visit him (which is something Inhapoiky offered for her to do from the start). She did not decline my offer hit more so just didn’t acknowledge it. I expected her to accept or decline when she came to visit which she did not do. It has been 4 weeks since that visit. I agree that an offer was made and while I did not state a time limit to it it was intended for the there and now. I am in no way upset that she is asking for him back. Just upset that I really don’t know what do now that she is.
 
OP
A

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #10
For me, it would be a no.
The coronavirus thing is making people lonely, making them want something to hang onto.

If she had changed her mind during the first month, I would have but not now.

Plus the parrot , it's not fair to him. Hevadjusted to this big change, he is happy. So I feel the best thing for him and his well being is to stay with you.

I wondered about this too. If being alone in her home during this time has made this harder. Although she lives a pretty alone life to begin with so I am not sure how much has changed for her compared to others. It has been 7 weeks that we have had him. The offer was made at week 2. It’s not a ton of time that ya passed, but also enough time.
 
OP
A

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #11
A most difficult decision, there will be no clear winner or absolved consciousness regardless of outcome. So many angles to this dilemma:

- Original owner probably sold prematurely
- You purchased in good faith, assume she did not discuss a buyback at the time of sale?
- What has changed in her life to better manage Paco, other than remorse?
- You and your family have bonded to Paco. A return will result in a loss, though not "devastation."
- You are feeling guilty having discussed with original owner and reading subsequent FB posts
- Not to be overlooked, what is best for Paco? Hard to subjectively evaluate, but reduced plucking is significant factor in your favor.

You are wise seeking opinion beyond yourself as this is a terrible situation. Personally, I'd have a rough time and seek counsel from friends, extending to associates of the seller. If you have a receipt or other document, the legal aspect is rather clear. Ethical considerations are far more vexing.

-Yes I believe she sold him prematurely. Although we gave her 2 weeks from visiting him and verbally committing to taking him where she could have changed her mind.
-No talk about a buyback was ever done. We were committing to him long term. She did ask that if we ever felt we couldn’t take care of him anymore if we would contact her first which I was happy to do.
-We have started bonding with him and while he would be missed it would not devastate us at this time. I truly believe she is devastated without him which is why this decision is so hard for me.
-It’s hard for me to say what is truly best for him. I believe we are providing him a happy enriching life. I believe more so than his previous life. But we also aren’t his family of 23 years, yet so there’s that bond they have that we don’t yet.

I am not worried about any sort of legal issue, this is more so a moral and emotional issue for me.
 
OP
A

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #12
How did he act after she had the visit? Did he go I to a big depression, act like he was greiving her? If after her visit, it was life is fine. Then that's a big answer to you.

No depression at all. He never seemed to go through a big depression even when he first moved here. I would like to attribute that to the happy and fulfilling life we have provided him since the start. But of course I can’t say that with 100% certainty.
 

saxguy64

Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Apr 24, 2018
16,319
Media
4
Albums
3
27,352
Maine, USA
Parrots
Tucker the Red Sided Eclectus
Baxter the YNA
Avery the CAG
Patches the Grand Eclectus, my best friend. RIP
Cuckoo the BFA RIP
"I believe we are providing him a happy enriching life. I believe more so than his previous life."

"No depression at all. He never seemed to go through a big depression even when he first moved here. I would like to attribute that to the happy and fulfilling life we have provided him since the start."

Perhaps you have answered your question.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

fiddlejen

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,232
Media
11
1,156
New England
Parrots
Sunny the Sun Conure (sept '18, gotcha 3/'19). Mr Jefferson Budgie & Mrs Calliope Budgie (albino) (nov'18 & jan'19). Summer 2021 Baby Budgies: Riker (Green); Patchouli, Keye, & Tiny (blue greywings).
...One because she’s not the ideal home for an African gray, two because we are growing close to him....

...Last night I saw a Facebook post of hers where she shared a memory from 2015 of Paco and her comment sharing it was “my life is empty without you”. Several friends commented asking what happened to him and suggested she ask his new home if he could come back to her.

IF you're gonna return him, you may want to check -- the issues that led to her feeling unable to care for him, have they been resolved?

Also IF the Facebook posts you mention actually represent her motivation, IS She fully confident that all her issues have improved so she Can care for him? This reads to me like, her friends see she's sad because she loves & misses him, and being friends they are nudging her to "fix" the sadness in the most obvious way. But IF her ability to care for him has not improved, then maybe that's like telling a dieter to eat some cake to cheer up?

...I really feel like a part of me is doing something wrong if I don’t allow him to go back to his original owner, but a part of me feels like I’m doing something wrong if I do.

I think your feelings are wrong. Really truly. It's the other way around. If you KEEP him, you are doing what's RIGHT. Or, if you let her have him BACK, you are doing what's RIGHT.

That might not help you decide. But really, the difficulty here is to decide between two Good, Right choices. In this case, whichever choice you make is going to be the Correct one.

(You'll want to remember that after the choice has been done, as well.)

Oh, and as far as it goes. If you were doing a poll right at this moment. My vote right now would be that you keep him. BUT I would make that vote only by a hairsbreadth. Probably because I slightly think that's what you Want to do. But I firmly believe what is really difficult here is that you are choosing between two Right courses of action.
 

Birdman666

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2013
9,904
258
San Antonio, TX
Parrots
Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
My guide on this situation is always WHAT IS BEST FOR THE BIRD.

If the bird is plucking because she is hit and miss with meeting his needs, and he is not plucking with you... then that says NO.

If the bird is absolutely lit up like a Christmas tree around the former owner, then that says maybe...
 

Birdman666

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2013
9,904
258
San Antonio, TX
Parrots
Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
I went through this a few years back with my foster nape. The nape loved us, and really, really loved my flock - especially my red lored.

We took in the nape when a friend of mine, who was going through a divorce, working too much, and just had too much on his plate couldn't handle the responsibility anymore.

We had BOB for two years. One day BOB'S owner came over to visit... and BOB lit up like a Christmas tree... doted over his former owner, and became aggressive and through a fit when his former owner tried to put him back...

When he asked for the bird back?! NO BRAINER. DUDE! BIRDS PICK THEIR PEOPLE IT'S YOUR BIRD...

If the bird lights up around you as well as the former owner, and isn't plucking... I'd say no.

Once you give up the bird, you lose your rights. Do not act on impulse on this one.

Perhaps the former owner can have visitation rights as a compromise?! (Call first!) Especially if she wasn't meeting the bird's attention needs. That way she gets to interact on occasion without the responsibility... and the bird gets the comfort of an old friend without the neglect that went with it...

Just a thought.
 

Cycletim

Member
Mar 22, 2020
114
16
Ventura, California
Parrots
Jasper Congo African Grey,
Grover Red bellied parrot RIP 10/20,
Red bellied parrot Rheya
We are in a similar situation with our 18 year old grey. Although, his former owner has not asked and we don't think he will. If he did ask, at this point (we have had him 6 weeks) we would be torn with a tough decision. We have a 4 year old who has taught our grey how to dance. I feel for you, if we were to give him back we would try to adopt another parrot I suppose. But, I'm not saying we would let him go. He's starting to settle in and bond more and has been staring at his new cage and toys/foragers we bought him. We will hopefully make the switch to the new palace soon. Good luck
 
OP
A

Aavogaro

New member
Jan 3, 2020
80
10
Austin, TX
Parrots
Fish & Blue - the budgie brat pack
Snoopy - lovable M whitefaced cockatiel
(Pending adoption) Paco - 25yo CAG
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #18
If the bird lights up around you as well as the former owner, and isn't plucking... I'd say no.

Once you give up the bird, you lose your rights. Do not act on impulse on this one.

Perhaps the former owner can have visitation rights as a compromise?! (Call first!) Especially if she wasn't meeting the bird's attention needs. That way she gets to interact on occasion without the responsibility... and the bird gets the comfort of an old friend without the neglect that went with it....

So here’s the tough questions for me to answer. His former owner’s name was June. That’s what Paco called her. He now refers to everyone in the family when they enter the room as June. Is that a sign that he associates us as family and June is just his word for it? Or is he hoping to see June come around the corner?

When you and others have mentioned if he lights up like a Christmas tree around her, I will say this. He was definitely different around her but what I observed was what I believe to be VERY hormonal behavior. Slightly outstretched and dropped wings, fluffed you and tons and tons of regurgitating which I observed him doing the day we first met him and her house and the day she brought him to come join our family. It was honestly a bit repulsive to see the behavior in him because he doesn’t act that way with me or anyone in our family, but then again I don’t allow it. If I see him beginning to regurgitate I turn or walk away. I don’t pet him in ways to get him “happy” that way. I ignore what appears to be any hormonal behavior. So does he like her more or just relate to her that way and me the way I have tried to establish with him? Ugghhhh.....this is all just so frustrating.

We had established from the start that she could come visit when she would like, text for updates and I created an Instagram for Paco and invited her to it so she could keep up with his new daily life. She kept saying how quiet and empty her house is now without him when she came to visit. She wants him back under her roof.

I am torn because I feel like I am having to choose between the needs/wants of a human being and that of an animal. I consider myself a compassionate person and the thought of having to tell her I am sorry but I want to keep Paco so hope you get through it is awful to me. But at the same time I don’t know if she would provide a better home for him now than in the past and I know we can offer him more. He’s a really sweet, gentle bird who has done so well
Transitioning into this family. While we aren’t 100% all a bonded until it, we are in our way and working on it every day. I took him in to be our companion for the rest of our days nom so angry at myself for offering her to take him back if she was struggling with her decision in those first couple of weeks. A sale is a sale. I should have kept my heart and emotions out of it. :(:(:(
 

Laurasea

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2018
12,593
10,702
USA
Parrots
Full house
Well you get to sleep on it.
Grey's are prone to pluck, I would not hold that against her, it's a complex problem. She had a lot if stress, and her bird shared her stress, and or other causes. . Because this parrot is not a screaming biting angry bird, he must have felt love and had some happiness.

This is obviously a razorwire for which you feel torn by each choice.

I pray the choice becomes clear to you.
 

1oldparroter

Member
Nov 4, 2019
267
7
Waiteville, WV
Parrots
I am 71, married and fairly private. I have PM privileges but prefer the phone. Printed messages, are so limited. jh
I would keep the bird and call off the visits. 1. It displayed hormonal behaviour to her but not you and yours. 2. She has been dragging her feet and trying to have it her way and on her terms. You are currently standing up for the birds best interest; or are you? jh
 

Most Reactions

Latest posts

Top