Weaning babies and wing-clipping questions for the masses

PenClem

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Howdy everyone!

I was reading through some threads the other day and kind of got lost in them for awhile. Now I can't recall where I read this, but saw that folks in the Netherlands are considered to have vastly superior practices with regard to weaning baby birds than, say, Americans and their force-weaning practices (in some cases). It was a blurb within a comment on a post, and as I glossed over the thread, I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting; I'd like to learn more!"

So, what can y'all tell me about that? Why are they better at weaning babies than we are? What is the difference in how they do it, and how do those differences impact the health of the babies? Please do share all you can with me. Links to articles are a huge plus!

I also read somewhere on Facebook recently that wing-clipping is heavily frowned upon these days. I just want to say that when I was working in a pet shop for birds, we did many many many wing trimmings (and nail clippings) each day and no one batted an eye. I'd love to hear why the change in popular opinion and how it affects the mental well-being of the bird(s) who go unclipped.

I, myself, have fully flighted Lovebirds because, personally, I think it's better for the bird if they can fly around. That's the most basic reasoning I have for it. I'm sure there are much more deeply rooted thought processes for leaving birds flighted, and those are the ones I'd like to hear. I want to know why YOU leave your bird flighted, and also how you handle the bird(s) when in flight.

These two subjects are on my mind, and I'd love to learn more! Please feel free to share opinions, but especially fact-based information pertaining to them. Thank you!
 

Laurasea

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Weaning babies need to fledge first, and become accomplished fliers , then if you must you can decide on wing trims. The fledging is a monumental milestone in their development, their breast muscles develope, their wings finish growing correctly with the flight feathers guiding them, their brains finish development . They have confidence. Birds that never learn to fly, startle easy, lack confidence, some like mine won't even hop to perch that is like an inch away. They are more prone to feather destructive problems as adults. Adults that are kept flighted have much better health, less likely to become overweight, burn up some of their energy flying around, so less frustrated I think, it allows these intelligent birds to make more personal choices, instead if us dictating their every move. ;)
 

Laurasea

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I believe Sailboat thread on Amazon's has a scientific section on the benefits of flight, that an author allowed him to quote, his whole thread is worth reading, it's a sticky in the Amazon section.
 
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PenClem

PenClem

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Weaning babies need to fledge first, and become accomplished fliers , then if you must you can decide on wing trims. The fledging is a monumental milestone in their development, their breast muscles develope, their wings finish growing correctly with the flight feathers guiding them, their brains finish development . They have confidence. Birds that never learn to fly, startle easy, lack confidence, some like mine won't even hop to perch that is like an inch away. They are more prone to feather destructive problems as adults. Adults that are kept flighted have much better health, less likely to become overweight, burn up some of their energy flying around, so less frustrated I think, it allows these intelligent birds to make more personal choices, instead if us dictating their every move. ;)

Thank you, Laurasea! That was helpful! I'm going to look for the sticky thread on weaning right now. :)
 

FlyBirdiesFly

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I agree with the above. Babies must fledge and learn how to fly skillfully before you ever consider clipping their wings. Clipping a weaning baby runs the risk of them never learning how to fly properly, even when their flight feathers grow in. Force-weaning is a terrible practice and can lead to neurological defects as the baby gets older.

I keep my birds flighted and encourage others to do so because I believe that birds, creatures evolved to fly, are much happier and healthier when allowed flight. I can go on and on about this... birds’ respiratory systems are specifically designed for flight, and flighted birds have much stronger hearts and lungs. Flying is the best form of exercise for them and with birds in captivity already being much less active than their wild counterparts, the least we can do is let them fly. Flighted birds are much less likely to become overweight than clipped birds. Aside from all the health benefits, flighted birds are generally a lot more confident and happy. Being able to fly means that birds can escape danger when they feel threatened, which makes them feel safer/more content as they are prey animals. Flighted birds can also let out their accumulated energy, which makes them less frustrated. Clipped birds tend to have balance issues, which lessens their confidence even more. When Ducky was clipped when I got her, she broke all her tail feathers from attempting to fly and then falling. Since she became flighted, she hasn’t broken a single feather. She also became more independent and doesn’t scream for me when I leave, as she can simply fly to me. After all this, if you still aren’t convinced, birds get great joy out of flying! Kermit in particular loves to zoom around the room for fun. Pearl will often follow him, then Ducky will join in to fly some laps. Not to mention the pure joy you get when your bird flies to you by its own choice. Recall training is tons of fun and you can teach your bird all kinds of cool things that involve flight. For example, Ducky will fly wherever I point, Kermit can fetch by flying the ball up to me, and you can teach your bird to come back to you like a boomerang when you ‘throw’ them in the air. Overall, the benefits of keeping your bird flighted are numerous, after all birds are meant to fly :)
 
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riddick07

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6 months - 1 year before you clip them the first time. I read a study a long time ago on it and can never find it again. Maybe it’s what was referenced before. I found it when doing research for my baby Cockatiels 8 yrs ago:)eek:). The conclusion was that flight is learned when young (just like young kids absorb things like a sponge) and for development of the chest muscles and such.

Just for reference my Cockatiels were allowed flight for a year before being clipped. They are very very good fliers. My green cheeks are very good fliers too but they learned most of it later in life (I mean if 1-2 yrs old is later in life) from watching the tiels. The green cheeks are actually more dare devil like than the tiels now.
 
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Laurasea

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The sticky is I love Amazon's! But as you read through, whole section on flying, reteaching flying, ect.. an especially worthy read for anyone with a second hand parrot, or previously neglected shut down parrot
 

Laurasea

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My Neptune was clipped by breeder before fledging and before done growing, now that the feathers have come in his wings cross weird and the flight feathers rub, I believe that the flight feathers guide and help finish normal wing growth, and the muscles that hold the wing.
 

SilverSage

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I raised Indian Ringnecks and I used to raise green cheeked conures; two species famous for biting. Funny how I never once have ended up with a bird you could reasonable call “a biter”... so what do I do differently?

-FULL FLEDGING! Doesn’t mean you never clip, but that the mind and body are allowed to grow to adulthood with the power of flight, as it was intended.
-ABUNDANCE WEANING! The baby will stop taking formula when he is ready; taking it away before that is cruel and damages the mental and emotional stability of the bird.
-HEAVY SOCIALIZATION which means introductions to as many situations as possible, not just lots of people.

I haven’t read the article you speak of, but I want to!

Also please check out the following article :)
https://theparrotuniversity.com/flight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ChristaNL

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Hi there, the Netherlands here (well only one of the 17+ million/ might be more by now, I do not keep count/ peeps there anyway).

Silversage kind of already said it.
A bird has 2 ways of dealing with danger: run away or attack.
With wingclipping you take away the "retreat and regroup" option, so you are left with a bitey bird!
(Do not blame the bird: it is his last resort/ selfdefense.)

Anyway- we have this wave of interest in animal-wellness (physically and emotionally/mentally) and it dawned on several people that since "handraised" birds are NINE TIMES MORE likely to pluck, automutilate, show severly disturbed behaviour patterns etc. than birds that were allowed to normally fledge / "parentraised" that there might be a correlation between those two.

The cats got there first- after a lot of experimenting they found that most kittens actually need mums (sometimes) rough parenting to become 'civilised members of society' and selling them too young resulted in agressive, disturbed cats.
(who in short "did not know 'how to cat'" )

The same with babybirds who must learn "how to parrot propperly" from interacting with the parents, the siblings (and at some stage the humans they will be living with).

Anyway- after a lot of debating and compromising (because almost everybody wants a nice cuddly, dependend babybird <as much as people want kittens en puppies, not grown ups> and the longer you keep a baby- the less profitable it will become, and you DO want to get and keep(!) the breeders on board with this of course, they decided to let at least keep the babies with the parents till they could more or less eat by themselves.

so they had this list ... and it became the law (in 2014).
No more nestrobbing or selling them on too early.
(that is the theory anyway/ **** still happens, some people just do not read, are set in their ways or plainly love fast&easy money too much?)

anyway- sorry, it is in Dutch first, but you can use the scientific names (you know your birds right?) papegaai info handvoeding verboden

Maybe One day I'll translate all of them and make it a sticky, if people are interested. ;)
(LOL or find you a better link- we always translate everything because the dutch language is hell to learn)
 
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PenClem

PenClem

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Your contributions to this thread have given me great insight into my relationship with my former CAG who I had from 7 w/o til almost 9 y/o. She was my first parrot and before her, I knew next to nothing about birds. She was force weaned. She was clipped before weaning was complete. She was always kept clipped. And she was weaned onto a sugary pellet (Zupreem fruit-blend). All this leads me to believe that she was set up for failure. Around her seventh year, she began plucking. By year eight, her chest feathers were plucked leaving only down feathers, and she became increasingly neurotic. It's hard to say if it was me who was influencing this behavior or if it was her inherent issues from the beginning of her life or a combination of both.

At the same time, my adopted Lovebird was always fully flighted and he was a MESS of a bird. Neurotic, plucking, self-mutilating, and would have night terrors regularly. He was put on Haldol by my CAV which helped, but now I wonder what kind of life he led before coming to me. None of that behavior stopped, but it greatly improved.

My next parrot will NOT be force weaned. He will not be clipped before fledging, if ever. And he will be weaned onto a much healthier pellet and fresh diet. If only I knew then what I know now, huh?
 

Laurasea

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I very much want to see a translation!! I commend your forward thinking country!!! You don't think a copy exists already?
 

EllenD

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I was going to point that out too, as not just the Netherlands I don't believe, but most of Europe has put laws on pulling baby birds and hand-raising them at certain ages, or at all (I'm not up on their laws, but I know they are very strict about it)...There are no laws in the US regarding hand-raising/hand-feeding/pulling baby birds from their parents, so that's the reason why the US has so many issues...

****Honestly, in my opinion as a former breeder/hand-raiser, I think the problem in the US isn't that we are allowed to hand-raise/hand-feed baby birds, it's that people who have no experience doing either just decide to breed their birds, either for money or just because they want to hand-raise baby birds, they don't know what they are doing, and the end-up either killing them, or if they do live they end-up "Force-Weaning" them accidentally because they have no idea what the hell they are doing...It's not easy to hand-raise/hand-feed baby birds, contrary to what people think...They get it in their heads that it's like a dog having puppies or something, and so they remove the babies from the nest-box between 2-3 weeks (if they even get that right), and then they either aspirate them and kill them, or they cause them a horrible yeast infection and kill them, or they start "taking-away" feedings or "reducing" feeding amounts themselves instead of letting the bird Abundance-Wean themselves, and then you've got birds with horrible neurological issues who are "perpetual babies" for the rest of their lives...Its' not easy and people don't get that...

The other issue is the GREED of Americans, and due to that we have thousands of bird breeders who are totally willing to sell unweaned-babies to ANYONE, whether they know what they are doing or not, because they want rid of the babies to save money and time, and to make room for more babies to sell...It's ridiculous, even pet-shops are doing this all across the US, they breed parrots and sell them to anyone who walks into the pet shop when they are only 3-4 weeks old, give them a container of hand-feeding formula and an oral syringe, and then say "Here ya go. It's easy. Enjoy."...and that's it. Until there are laws in the US AT LEAST regarding the sale of unweaned baby birds by breeders and pet shops, this isn't going to get better but only progressively worse...
 

MauiWendy

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Ok I need to chime in here because the more I read the more scared I get. I was looking in to RB and found one on Oahu. I contacted the breeder, and purchased a 3 month old RB, whom we named Keoki. I was told he was 3 months and down to two feeding an am/pm. And said he had about two weeks to go. I have never purchased a bird without seeing them, but here is Hawaii it’s slim pickings, especially on Maui. As some of you know I had to rehome my parrotlet Kiwi because I was not allowed to bring her her. Two years later I know have Keoki. Here is the problem. I have weaned birds before, but it was along time ago and I was much younger then. I don’t know how he talked me into finishing weaning him and I didn’t think it would be this hard. I got myself all set up, but every since he got here he really didn’t want it. Not like a hungry baby seeking food. So I have been struggling for two weeks to feed this bird. He eats fine all day long, pellets, seeds, veggies, not much fruit. When I go to feed him at night, like tonight he actually flew away (twice), clearly he didn’t want it. He was the same this morning, he didn’t want it. I have been weighing him everyday tonight when I got home he was 110 grams. Here is my second problem, he is clipped. I didn’t know he was clipped, and didn’t think to ask because he wasn’t weaned. His breeder said that he will wean when he fledged, well how can he fledge if he is clipped. I did ask him. It just made no sense to me. Im wondering has he already learned to fly and then they clipped him. Speaking to the breeder is like talking to a wall, you get nowhere. I can’t even get a hatch date. So i have given up calling or txting him. So now I am concerned I think he is definately wanting to wean, but he can not fly. I don’t know what to do. He is going to the vet, I am looking forward to that.I don’t want force him to hand feed but I’m not sure if I will hurt him if I stop. His poop looks fine and his morning dump is also nice size. But I am still concerned that he is getting enough. I will never, ever do something like this again. Personally I thought all would be ok. I can do this. Can someone please talk to me. Thank you
 

ChristaNL

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I think you have been had...
(maybe it is not even a young bird and the 'breeder' has been lying to you about everything)
I saw the photoo you posted and he/she sure is a looker! :)

If the bird does not want any formula and is eating just fine.. let it be!

Just go with the "building a bond" like you would do with any parrot you just got in your life.
It looks like a beautifull, healthy bird (well in thet pict anyway), and it is reasonably tame, so that is a plus.
Just weight him/her once a day for a few weeks and do not offer formula, and if it does not change much at all- call it a day with the weaning: if the bird can eat just fine, happy everyone.

Enjoy your bird!
 

MauiWendy

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I think you have been had...
(maybe it is not even a young bird and the 'breeder' has been lying to you about everything)
I saw the photoo you posted and he/she sure is a looker! :)

If the bird does not want any formula and is eating just fine.. let it be!

Just go with the "building a bond" like you would do with any parrot you just got in your life.
It looks like a beautifull, healthy bird (well in thet pict anyway), and it is reasonably tame, so that is a plus.
Just weight him/her once a day for a few weeks and do not offer formula, and if it does not change much at all- call it a day with the weaning: if the bird can eat just fine, happy everyone.

Enjoy your bird!

Yeah I think so too.... I was just so excited about this little guy, I threw all caution to the wind and jumped without a parachute. I even fell for “he’ll bond easier if you finish weaning him” dumb me.

Keoki, He is a great lil guy. I sure hope he is healthy. The vet will determine that. I just got overwhelmed reading all this information. And the last thing I want to do is to hurt him. Tomorrow, I will weigh him, I will offer him his veggie mix, seeds and pellets, and see what happens. Thanks for your support.
 

ChristaNL

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All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
There always will be @ssh0les in this world,

the great thing about parrots: they love who they want to love, no matter how old or young they are and it sounds you me you are doing great together.
 

LordTriggs

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yep, was gonna say it sounds like your little guy has decided he don't want momma food anymore and wants to eat other stuff. Just keep an eye on his weight to make sure it isn't going down and you should be fine
 

MauiWendy

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There always will be @ssh0les in this world,

the great thing about parrots: they love who they want to love, no matter how old or young they are and it sounds you me you are doing great together.

I thought that I asked all the right questions. This guy has been breeding for over 30 years. So I assumed he would be a wealth of information. Boy was I wrong....

Last night I took all food out of his cage when he went to bed. Except for some millet. When I came out of my bedroom he was already munching on his millet and had his morning dump. Which looked great. He climbed on me and off we went into the kitchen to make his food for the day. No handfeeding today. He is eating his regular food. I am keeping a close eye on his weight.
 

EllenD

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Oh I'm sorry to hear this, it's becoming a very serious and wide-spread issue, even with long-time, "reputable" breeders. It's like it's actually becoming the "norm" for people to buy their parrots unweaned and having to hand-feed them when they have no idea what they are doing, and even if they do the breeders are just vanishing into thin-air and doing shady things...

I agree, I think you were had...If you can't even get the hatch-date from a 30-year breeder, then it's probably because he doesn't know the hatch-date, and your bird was most-likely weaned long ago and is much older than you were told...And actually in the end that would be the much better truth, because that would mean that he was probably allowed to fledge before he weaned, and then they clipped him. So you're actually much better-off if he is older than you were told in this situation...Cross your fingers...

I agree, never "force" any formula on him. As long as he's eating his pellets, seeds, veggies, etc. every day fine, and as long as you are weighing him every single day at the same time each day (first thing in the morning before he eats is best) and he's either maintaining his weight or gaining weight and he's not losing, then you're okay. I'd also let his wings fully grow-in and not clip them again at all until you make sure that he has no issues flying...Hopefully they at least did a responsible clip on him and it will only take a month or two for them to grow back in fully. Once you see that he can fly normally, with control and direction, then you can clip him again if you want to, but I would not clip him again until you're certain he has actually fledged...

I'm too am confused as to why the breeder told you that "he'll wean when he fledges", when he's seemingly already weaned and can't fledge because he's already clipped...That's suspect....almost like this breeder never even saw this bird and maybe got him from someone else? Hopefully it's not an issue and it works out...for both his sake and yours...

****Has he done any crying at nighttime for a "comfort feeding"? Most-all baby birds I've hand-raised have cried/begged for a nighttime "comfort-feeding" for up to a month after they are actually weaned...Might be a better gauge as to how old he is, since most RB2's fully-wean around 3 months or so...
 

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