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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2018, 07:27 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Hi all,

Thanks for all the contributions so far, some excellent technical info as well as plenty of passion; love it!

The vet I used was pretty keen to have a chat with the breeder, and she in turn stated she would like to talk sooner rather than later so I gave her my vets details. Came back the next day with a simple txt which stated that the vet had not blamed the curvature in Fergus' spine or his diminished size on poor breeding practices....no mention of her clipping practices! My response:

"Yeah he did; he told me that Fergus was small and had a curvature in his spine and that this typically comes about when breeders opt for a diet which ensures maximum number of offspring and not quality of offspring...Did I just imagine that up?? What about the clip? You would have had your telling off by now, why not do the right thing and learn from it. All this clearly bothers you, I'd settle for some form of acknowledgment from you but I won't hold my breath...pride is like that for some people I guess"

Haven't had a reply yet, but if she does come back I'll guide her to this thread and invite her to state her argument. Just out of interest does anyone agree/disagree with the likelihood of Fergus congenital problems being related to diet and breeding practices?

Thanks again,
Scott.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2018, 09:50 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Quote: Originally Posted by Terry57 View Post
Send her on over here, I am sure many people would love to have this debate with her.
However, she does not seem like a person who would listen to anything reasonable people have to say. What a shame for the babies she breeds.
Hi Terry57,

Thank you, still hoping she fronts up because maybe she needs to hear all this from others with experience, but I think you maybe right that she will just carry on regardless.

Scott.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2018, 10:09 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

[QUOTE=EllenD;750646]Oh yes, please do send her over here. I really honestly would love to hear her backing this up, and I'd also like to educate her so she can stop hurting birds...

Out of curiosity, if she truly thinks that clipping only one wing is safe, good, the best way, etc., then what did she have to say about your baby already having a fractured keel bone along with already having a curvature in his spine?

And what Christa was commenting on was the fact that this woman is a breeder (and a bad one at that), and you have no idea at what age she clipped your bird, or any of her birds...And when a breeder clips the wings of a baby bird before they fully fledge, then they typically end-up never learning to fly properly, which not only results in physical problems, but it causes life-long psychological, neurological, and behavioral issues

And even though your baby bird was still quite young when you brought him home, he had ALREADY suffered from a broken keel bone (that actually had the time to start healing before you brought him home) and a curvature in his spine...

Hi EllenD,
Lol, working on sending her your way, would love to watch you take her apart!!

I'm really not sure when the fracture occurred; it is highly likely that it happened in my care in the early weeks. The main issue when I first collected Fergus was that he was frightened and bolting at every opportunity; from hands, feeding station, play gym, and cage. He was also seeking high points as you would expect so I was unable to simply keep him low to the floor (also have a little boy who would have LOVED Fergus to remain within his reach!!), and clumsy as anything and regularly falling from
perches in his cage. I have hard porcelain tiles throughout the living areas so pretty unforgiving. I used a mat where possible, put extra perches and ropes in the cage, and weather permitting took stands out on to the grass....but accidents still happened unfortunately. I never once thought he'd hurt himself seriously though, but the vet stated that birds are masters of hiding these things to avoid abandonment by the flock so who knows?

Breeders stance was simply that Fergus left her care in good shape, and that she does not believe that he has congenital issues, or that her wing clipping practices are to blame for any subsequent injury...and that's it.

As for age she did the clip, or the particulars of the weaning process, or age at point of sale; I'm really not sure. I know she brought forward the pick up by a week or so, and this was to accommodate the buyers of Fergus' sibling, and as she had offered me "first pick" this meant I had to come early too.

Scott.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2018, 11:43 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
LOL, yes...you may send her anything about what I said.

I am not a professional breeder (have asisted in handfeeding etc. of course); but I am a fully fledged physiotherapist with years and years of birdkeeping and some bird-rehab experience.
So I know my way around anatomy, muscle functions etc.etc. and issues that may have impact on normal development and functionality.

And I am appalled about this level of baby-bird abusing.
Even my non-parrot-savvy friend remarked yesterday (he donated a spare monitor) " I would have set the animal-cruelty-controll-people on her".
Hi ChristaNL,

I think she has cooled her interest in participating in open debate, I'm thinking I might just send her a link to this thread so she can at least gauge some opinions.

I agree, anything that impedes natural development and functionality can't be healthy. I think it was EllenD that mentioned the potential for psychological issues as a consequence and this was exactly what the vet was saying and why he felt the feather transplant was so important.

I don't know about the authorities; honestly despite her strong stance, it smacks of pride to me and I'd like to think that she will change, even if it just about the potential loss of future sales/money.

Thanks again.
Scott.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:27 AM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Oh I do not expect that one to change at all - some people are allergic to criticism of any kind.
It was nice to be able to vent in this topic.

That breeder is lost somewhere in the previous century (unfortunately she is not the only one) where live and intelligent beings are dumb merchandise and the customer is always wrong.

I do not know how much inbreeding she is doing or how the feeding and foodquality is over at her place, but a babybird (handfed and sort of weaned) that is handled in the right way does not panick all over the place -> it would run to the nearest human for comfort in strange surroundings.

Anyway- said al that... I just hope karma will come crashing around her ears sooner than later.
(If puppymills are forbidden/ outlawed in your area, parrotmills should be double so.)

I can only rejoyce that this little fellow finally landed the right way up -> at your place, in your care and your vet is *the* greatest ever!
Just concentrate on getting this one all the way to nice, balanced adulthood and beyond ... if that is all you can do - it will have to be enough.

(if some breeder-bashing opportunities present themselves in the future ..go for it There really should be a blacklist with those people on it.
Just like one of the parrotpushers here in NL: all the experienced parrotpeople know to avoid the b@st@rd like the plague, but there are always the bright eyed newbies...so he stays in business)
.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:46 AM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Thanks for this thread, and all the comments. I had only heard of this practice a couple of times, long ago, and I had no idea that people were still championing it. I'm glad we're shining a light on the dangers.

Doesn't even make any intuitive sense to me.

Sorry your Eclectus had to go through all that.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:13 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Quote: Originally Posted by GaleriaGila View Post
Thanks for this thread, and all the comments. I had only heard of this practice a couple of times, long ago, and I had no idea that people were still championing it. I'm glad we're shining a light on the dangers.

Doesn't even make any intuitive sense to me.

Sorry your Eclectus had to go through all that.

And that's exactly it, Gail nailed it and said it the best: "Doesn't even make any intuitive sense to me"...That's because Gail is thinking logically and not with her ego and pride as this breeder is. And that really is what it all comes down to, as this breeder isn't mentally-challenged or unable to understand simple logic.

And this is exactly why I seriously would be interested in hearing her explanation, or rather the logic behind "Why" she continues to think/verbally state that "Clipping only one wing is the safest and best way to clip them"...That's what she has yet to state or explain, the "Why" behind why she apparently believes this. My guess is that she hasn't given the "Why" because she has no explanation or support to back-up this statement up, because it simply just doesn't make any sense! Now I have a graduate degree in Health Science and have had several Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics classes, and i could sit here like the other member who said they are a Physiotherapist and explain in-detail why clipping only one wing is absolutely detrimental to a bird's movement, growth and development, and musculature. However, that is totally unnecessary, as it doesn't take a doctor to know that a unilateral wing-clip is going to totally throw-off the bird's balance, not to mention destroy their musculature on that side. That's not difficult for anyone to understand. So I just cannot think of one possible positive that could come from only clipping one wing, which is exactly why most-all breeders, veterinarians, and bird owners stopped doing single wing clips decades ago!

I don't even know what the point to doing a one-sided wing-clip was thought to be in the first place...???? Anyone know? As it was often done decades ago by breeders and vets..I just can't think of a single reason why.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:24 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Hi all,

Again, thanks to everyone for your contributions. For all of you who have/use Facebook there is a story posted by the vet; search Brisbane Bird Vet and you will see a little article regarding the perils of single wing clipping, as well as a couple of celebrity shots of my boy Fergus

The breeder has continued to txt me, and there was a glimmer of hope in her final message to me last night which read:

"I am happy to be further educated but we are not heartless breeders"

Hopefully she really means this and changes her future practices. Thanks again everyone.

Scott.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:54 PM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

Handsome little guy!
http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/
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Last edited by Flboy; 08-29-2018 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:56 AM
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Re: Breeder uses single wing clip open to debate

My guess is that the single-wing-clip came in as an alternative to the practice of amputating one full wingtip to prevent the birds from escaping (still done to some waterfowl afaik- because the seasonall pull/ migratory instinct is just too strong for them to stay put, even in perfect wintering surroundings).
Just like slavery it was decided to be a cruell practice - so no more people taking a pair of scissors and "doctoring' their baby-birds that way.

Though the single clip is less cruell and detrimental/permanent than that it is still not something compatible with safe short distance flight (or just landing) we want in our companion-birds.
There is a *huge* difference between keeping a groundbound/ swimming bird from taking off and a bird that launches itself from a height from crashing itself to pieces on the floor...
.

Last edited by ChristaNL; 08-30-2018 at 10:03 AM. Reason: ugh zpellink
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