African Grey died less 2-3 from when we received him

[noodles123]

Scott I am not sure how to replay but will replay under you for all in this group...I am still have some questions and maybe someone can help:

Hope this is not stupid question. Since Coco was my first bird, yes, please don't judge me. I have not get over yet because I am still trying to to understand what happened.

When you buy bird, do the company need to provide Delta with healthy certificate from veterinary from PA to TX?
Would this form be on my forms too?
I saw this on the Delta form: African Grey D10*15*15IN*1 - would this be the info the suppose the be in Coco's band? His band was blank.

Delta requires tag information with health certificate. Scroll down a bit, just past Health Requirements: https://www.delta.com/us/en/pet-travel/shipping-your-pet

Wonder if your case is stronger because the bird shipped differed from the one pictured. Unless you agreed to this, seems like bait and switch.

Delta's health certificates are pretty weak though---My bird has flown with them and they didn't require much to "prove" that the bird was healthy (excluding a statement of health). I know for a fact that they didn't require PDD, PBFD, or Pssitacosis testing...With so many exotics vets willing to go off of visual inspection alone, I am sure there are many who would vouch for a bird's health without requiring extensive testing. Noodles had never had a CBC when she flew with them either.

 

[AfricanGreyCoco]

what about the form: Live Animal Acceptance and transfer checklist for Delta and shows: Live Animal Acknowledgement and certification .... what it is mean when someone signed and give it to Delta? Because it clear shows I hereby certify that I have complied with all IATA Live Animal Regulations, USDA/APHIS. US Fish and Wildlife, etc...would this mean the person who signed and certify would have to provide something proof the bird identity? Like his Age, Sex, healthy, etc? If so, would Delta has this form?

 

[Kiwibird]

Pretty sure Texas has some of the most lax laws regarding animals in the entire country. The airline probably doesn’t fill out more paperwork than required by the state the bird is flying to. If you want to know if they have a specific form on file, you really have to contact them. No one here is a representative for Delta who can access their records to tell you if they have some kind of forms or information about the birds health before flying...

I still think, due to the infectious nature of this disease, that you need to report this to government authorities. I get you want your money back, but this is a far more serious issue. If this operation is shipping birds with a fatal, highly infectious disease all over the country, they need to be investigated and in all likelihood, shut down. This kind of scenario is a crisis waiting to happen in wild bird populations here in the US.

 

[ParrotGenie]

Pretty sure Texas has some of the most lax laws regarding animals in the entire country. The airline probably doesn’t fill out more paperwork than required by the state the bird is flying to. If you want to know if they have a specific form on file, you really have to contact them. No one here is a representative for Delta who can access their records to tell you if they have some kind of forms or information about the birds health before flying...

I still think, due to the infectious nature of this disease, that you need to report this to government authorities. I get you want your money back, but this is a far more serious issue. If this operation is shipping birds with a fatal, highly infectious disease all over the country, they need to be investigated and in all likelihood, shut down. This kind of scenario is a crisis waiting to happen in wild bird populations here in the US.

Agreed 100%

That my biggest fear, as they ship everywhere and a epidemic could happen.

 

[AfricanGreyCoco]

Anyone know what is the statue of limitation for consumer protection law in PA?

Like for issues like pets, animal, etc…In this case or prior case, where the other people had issue, and nothing happened. How long do the Veterinary clinic has to keep animal medical record?
PA and also …CA, OR, WA, NM, UT, CO, TX, etc.

Just in case if any one has to put any thoughts in this topic…

***please forget about received the money back, I am just learning from what happened, and what see how others handled the same situation, and if the statue of limitation has expired if there is one in your state.

 

[ParrotGenie]

Anyone know what is the statue of limitation for consumer protection law in PA?

Like for issues like pets, animal, etc…I this case or prior case, where the other people had issue, and nothing happened. How long do the Veterinary clinic has to keep animal medical record?

I think 2 years, but not a 100% sure? I do believe because they did a switch and bait, it fall under a fraud claim and not fall under the traditional two year statute. You may have 6 years if it does. I would definitely contact a attorney in your area, if I was you. Even if you don't care about getting the money back, these guys need to be stopped and being your vet confirmed what it is, it maybe enough to put light to this.

More important get government agencies like U.S. Fish and Wildlife, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and I do think you can get Federal Aviation Administration involve as well, due to they were flown over? PDD is pretty serious and they need to be investigated and shut down if needed before it become more widespread and becomes a bigger issue and claims a lot more lives, plus will help your case in the long run. Mines and other people concern is for stopping this nasty disease from taking any more, then it has to. Coco unfortunately suffer due to these idiots, don't let his death go to waste. Sorry this has to fall on your lap, but like comment stated below, your the one with the proof that when through this mess and have the proof that maybe need to get other involve that will hopefully put a stop to them and make a example of them to where other won't follow in same foot steps.

They fly under the radar as most don't have the proof needed, or follow through and reason they get away with it, but it just take one to provide enough proof to put a stop to it and get authorities involved. Even most of the big major pet stores in my area that sell birds catch wind of a virus they stop selling any birds currently they have in stock and put a sign out and have them tested till under control. These idiots from Ana’s Parrots and supplies don't care and keep selling them as all they care about is getting rich fast.

 

[Kiwibird]

I really do get that parrots are very expensive to purchase and that you deserve to get your money back here, but please don’t ONLY focus on the financial aspect of this situation. Coco was an individual and a precious little life. His death should count for something...

Please consider the millions of birds, domestic and wild this operation is putting at risk with their practices. At this point, you need to get a lawyer/attorney involved regarding your claim to compensation AND get the authorities involved in regards to a huge bird mill shipping sick birds nationwide. I cannot stress enough how important that is. Unfortunately, like it or not, the duty and obligation to at least try to get something done to shut these people down falls in your lap since you are the one with the proof in hand they’re shipping out sick birds.

 

[AfricanGreyCoco]

Yes I want to get refund and get paid for all medical bills but I don't want you all think this is all I want. It's break my heart to hear my 3 years old asking over and over why Coco is not coming back. We already told her, and when we tell her he will not coming back she cries, and cries, it's been very hard. No one should ever go thru this and this is why I want to learn more and more and see what can be done. Thanks for all the help.

 

[ParrotGenie]

Yes I want to get refund and get paid for all medical bills but I don't want you all think this is all I want. It's break my heart to hear my 3 years old asking over and over why Coco is not coming back. We already told her, and when we tell her he will not coming back she cries, and cries, it's been very hard. No one should ever go thru this and this is why I want to learn more and more and see what can be done. Thanks for all the help.

I understand no one going to judge you as you when through a lot and your right no one sure ever have to go through what you had to. The wrath of the law is what going to be needed as these guys don't care enough to look at proof and take necessary appropriate action to keep a very serious contagious disease from spreading and only care about profit as they are still selling same birds they had when you posted this.

Any responsible breeder, even large scale would have stop sales till they get it back under control and affected area quarantine from rest of facility till cleaned and birds in general area all tested and action taken as needed, till pass inspection and no other cases with birds with PDD confirmed. They sure have refunded you once you proved the bird you received had PDD, or offer a replace him at the very least, that wasn't your fault.

They are still selling birds and seen their ads for a while and yes your not the first, I known of 3 people personally that were sold sick, or unweaned parrots. One was a Moluccan Cockatoo I personally weaned and train for them, he almost died as well and was bought to my attention by another friend and hand fed him myself till fully weaned and a couple others with sick birds as well. Your just happens to be the most serious as they did a bait and switch and sold you Coco that unfortunately had a very infectious disease that took his life.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ana...8#lrd=0x89c48fcbf0ad0809:0xa1fd1758659eeea5,1,,,

https://www.birdbreeders.com/breeder/12074/anas-parrots-and-supplies-east-stroudsburg-pa

 

[Scott]

Agree with the above sentiments; Coco's passing is horrific on many levels, not the least is deprivation of a beautiful feathered companion. What may have lasting legal traction is shipment of an ill bird.

I would suggest contacting the state AGs for TX and PA, and possibly NY if Coco was ultimately shipped from the latter. Also the aforementioned government agencies with jurisdiction.

 

[ChristaNL]

They deliberately sold you a different & sick bird (and probably knew it/ planned it beforehand) and are now threatening you as well ...
unfortunately those mafiapractices happen a lot (we have a chain like that overhere as well)

I am sorry about the loss of your friend but the legal stuf will more be in terms af "product" and "bill of sales" etc.etc. so no... I will never think its all about the money for you and your family - but the discussion will most likely be all about that.
(And since those criminals only care about the dollars not about the lives of the animals...it's the only language they speak)

 

[AfricanGreyCoco]

I am not sure if the Bird come from NY, but when I look the the Pet travel requirement, and whether requirement, it requires to provide info on the whether of the location where the bird will fly from or to...and on my package I received a whether in from NY point forecast: Newark International airport NJ, then GA, then Forth Worth TX, it was overnight flight.

 

[Scott]

I am not sure if the Bird come from NY, but when I look the the Pet travel requirement, and whether requirement, it requires to provide info on the whether of the location where the bird will fly from or to...and on my package I received a whether in from NY point forecast: Newark International airport NJ, then GA, then Forth Worth TX, it was overnight flight.

Sending a bird on overnight flight seems odd especially with a connection. Only advantage is to avoid high outside daytime temps in summer. Newark to Dallas not a prime route for Delta, hence the need to change aircraft in Atlanta.

Every bit of info helps, but at this point you likely need legal assistance to pursue.

 

[ParrotGenie]

They deliberately sold you a different & sick bird (and probably knew it/ planned it beforehand) and are now threatening you as well ...
unfortunately those mafiapractices happen a lot (we have a chain like that overhere as well)

I am sorry about the loss of your friend but the legal stuf will more be in terms af "product" and "bill of sales" etc.etc. so no... I will never think its all about the money for you and your family - but the discussion will most likely be all about that.
(And since those criminals only care about the dollars not about the lives of the animals...it's the only language they speak)

It hard to say if they knew bird was sick before hand? From what I do know about them is they are pretty much bird brokers. They buy birds from other people, or breeder and offer to finish weaning for lower price, so breeders can move on to next clutch to resell them at a higher price. They also buy from Facebook and craigslist looking for older birds as well to resell them. They are bird flipping as well.

The issue is they cut corners, like selling not fully wean baby to keep up with demand to unsuspecting customers like my friend with the Moluccan Cockatoo and sick birds as they are not properly vetted and buying from multiple sources random people online and don't really know background of bird as a result, which is very poor practices.

This is why avoid "pet flippers" which is pretty much what they are. I have no issues with people that take the time and rehab the bird and get it vetted and then resell, or a breeder that care about its birds. It is the ones that are dishonest and don't get proper test done don't ask questions and then don't do what necessary to tame and take care of what the bird may need first, before reselling/re-homing them. They just want to flip to make the quick cash and reason they have listing all the time pretty much. No legitimate breeder would have that many bird for sale all year around.

Coco more likely would have lived longer if it wasn't for the stress of transport and being re-homed. He likely had ABV for a while just being a carrier fighting it off and stress made it Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD) and his immune system could no longer fight the virus off. I seen birds with ABV, never progressing to Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD) live full life out with families with no other birds fine. Of course you tell this to the person that plan on housing the bird and keep it in same state, so they can have a chance at a good quality of life and know not to keep other birds around that bird and keep up with sanitary requirements and vet visits.

 

[ParrotGenie]

http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/52774-female-died-polyoma-virus.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/conures...d-conure-breeders-located-anywhere-usa-2.html

Here a couple more that died from diseases

https://www.ripoffreport.com/report...ts-east-stroudsburg-pa-us-646-496-500-1206090

https://www.ripoffreport.com/report...roudsburg-pa-us-646-496-500-1206090#comment_3

This one from the same person, but give you a idea how she works and tries to hide if she has to deal with local people and meet with people to keep hidden. She also known to use friends house as well to meet up, but in most cases parking lots if she can get them to meet there?

https://www.ripoffreport.com/report...urg-pa-646-496-5005nbsp-stay-far-away-1464509

http://www.scamion.com/ana-39-s-parrots-bd


Here another one

https://www.complaintsboard.com/com...ker-not-breeders-sells-ill-birds-c743603.html

Same operation and proof of her leaving review for herself across both accounts, not including the fake accounts she created as well. She received negatives and seen her in about a month get them removed. She knows how to use the flag system. I seen the stuff she pulled over the years like a few other here have as well. I hoping your negative will stick, but knowing her she likely figure out a way to get it removed? Hoping rules changed enough since 2015 that they won't and it sticks and people read about the PDD.

https://www.birdbreeders.com/breeder/36846/love-4-parrots-hazleton-pa/reviews

Ana Temple 5.00 / 5.00
East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
A+++++++++++

Here her other listings

http://www.hoobly.com/u/anasparrots

The address is not where the birds are kept, but to a PO Box 3##

https://www.yelp.com/biz/us-post-office-analomink

 

[Flboy]

She was a member of this forum! Am willing to bet she still is lurking in here somewhere!

 

[ParrotGenie]

I am not sure if the Bird come from NY, but when I look the the Pet travel requirement, and whether requirement, it requires to provide info on the whether of the location where the bird will fly from or to...and on my package I received a whether in from NY point forecast: Newark International airport NJ, then GA, then Forth Worth TX, it was overnight flight.

Sending a bird on overnight flight seems odd especially with a connection. Only advantage is to avoid high outside daytime temps in summer. Newark to Dallas not a prime route for Delta, hence the need to change aircraft in Atlanta.

Every bit of info helps, but at this point you likely need legal assistance to pursue.

It does seem odd, but looking into details some more she does have previous NY address. The PA address she has on her website is to a post office for her PO Box? She does have another address in PA as well? She like to hide and meet people in parking lots, or other places not to reveal real address. She been accused of not sending Macaws out and receiving payment and sending sick ones out as well a few years ago and people just assumed it could be someone making a fake website pretending to be her. I suspect otherwise as info directs to her and for the most part she known to send out sick birds, most scammer will change info not to alert the person they are cloning, or copying and just use the pictures and name and create fake listings and likely doubt they ever would sent any birds out period which she did in some cases, if people complaint as they are scammers why would they? She started off with just macaws many years ago, so does match up with the scams she pulled as well.

They deliberately sold you a different & sick bird (and probably knew it/ planned it beforehand) and are now threatening you as well ...
unfortunately those mafiapractices happen a lot (we have a chain like that overhere as well)

I am sorry about the loss of your friend but the legal stuf will more be in terms af "product" and "bill of sales" etc.etc. so no... I will never think its all about the money for you and your family - but the discussion will most likely be all about that.
(And since those criminals only care about the dollars not about the lives of the animals...it's the only language they speak)

The more I look now, I do think it was planned as well and likely she deliberately sold a different & sick bird to make quick cash. She not just a parrot mill/ broker but likely a scammer as well.

https://www.ripoffreport.com/report...roudsburg-pa-us-646-496-500-1206090#comment_3

This scam goes way deeper as founds scams when she was selling macaws and not sending birds, or sick birds years ago and different alias and others involve including her husband. I can't post info due to personal info rule of this forum. It way worst then her just being a mill. It actually a ring of scammers as quite a few involved. These guys need to be shutdown and in prison. A very good reason why she not using a address and PO-Box and tries to get cash only when dealing locally and meets mostly in parking lots?

http://forums.avianavenue.com/index.php?threads/beware-of-michael-tran-and-sue-jones.143926/

https://www.ripoffreport.com/report...roudsburg-pa-us-646-496-500-1206090#comment_3

Used the parrot forum search engine and type in "Michael-Tran" "Sue Jones" on Parrot forums and you find many more threads about this large scale ring of scammers pull out of CA, NY and PA. Yes they are all connected to each other. Ana claims to be victim of them, but don't buy it as found her husband likely involve with baby macaw pre-order sick bird scam before the CA people were even in the picture.

She and others are pulling scams in CA, NY as well as she has connections linking back to NY. So likely Coco was from NY and details you provided are 100% correct and bird did come from NY, it wasn't a mistake.

These are the very people that started the whole accepting deposits for baby birds waiting to be weaned and stealing people money not sending birds out. This need to be bought to the attention of organized crime division?

Ana claims to be a victim on thread I researched and that they trash her reputation and stole 7k which the original 3k charge back as well on ripoff report, it also link back to her husband originally and other are involve with them and that report was directed at her, not someone else. It just wasn't notice, but started with the macaw's and more people were involve and then became wide spread later on. So it not just "Michael-Tran" "Sue Jones," lthe african grey breeders I also suspect Ana and her husband are involve as well at some point, more likely as she may have been scammed by them, or they owe her money? Just to much linking them back and pretty much same M.O., as her husband pulled with the baby Macaws early on before and when they just started Ana's Parrots and Supplies way before Michael-Tran" "Sue Jones," the african grey breeders were involve. Ana and her husband were likely also taking deposit for the macaws and sending out sick birds from NY then when people were on to them to shut them up and not to pursue criminal charges. Likely how they came up with the cash to start the business?

Not sure what involvement they had with the CA breeder guys, as bit and pieces of info still around? Can't dismiss the fact scams started in NY where Ana husband stays as saw early reports before people really knew about "Michael-Tran" "Sue Jones"? It just became wide spread with them and Ana claimed to be scam by them,which could be true, but she also a scammer as well?

 

[AfricanGreyCoco]

Based on what you are saying, do you think the bird first left NY, then NJ, then GA, then TX?

 

[ParrotGenie]

Based on what you are saying, do you think the bird first left NY, then NJ, then GA, then TX?

I believe the bird may have came from NY as you stated earlier. These scammers run out of mostly NY, CA and PA and she goes under different alias and several people involve. It is a lot worst then some even suspected already. They are large scale scammers and a few involve, not just bird brokers/mill that sell sick birds due to poor practices. All I can tell you is NY is her husband address, I can't give out personal details like address on forum. He the one that started the ring requesting deposits on baby Macaws and sending out sick macaws when people threaten him, when they found out who he really was. They tried to make it seem like it was a 3rd party that copy listing and was scamming and taking deposits. No scammer going to send out a bird after heat put on them. They are known for a wide range of other fraud as well. A few people are likely involve?

 

[EllenD]

I don't see my post to this that I posted on Saturday morning I believe, maybe it didn't post, but I was in-contact through email with the OP until Bowie had his accident, and I knew she had emailed me after that because I saw the alerts pop-up, but I wasn't online at all last week so I apologize, it was just due to Bowie having a horrible accident and us going back and forth between home and my CAV, and then also to work and back...So I need to catch-up with the OP on this...

ParrotGenie...There are 2 women who are partners and own this business, Ana and her partner Lily...Ana is located in Scranton, PA and Lily is located in Hazleton, PA...There are no buildings or an actual "business" that you can go and visit the birds in, but rather they each have basically what I would call a warehouse where they keep the birds that they buy...This is why they have PO Boxes and not listed business addresses....I have personally driven past the one in Hazleton and it's a dump. That's how they have advertised and done business for years, but now as you see they don't sell birds locally, they don't want to, and they don't advertise locally because they don't want people to be able to want and come see the birds before they buy them, they only want to sell to people out of state that have to buy the birds sight-unseen and have to air-ship them to them...They have recently started doing what our lawyer at the Rescue calls a 'Drop-Shipping" scam, which is what you are describing..Yes, these 2 women are tied to other large-scale operations in other states, but they both do in-fact operate as Parrot-Brokers out of these 2 facilities in PA as well. Their new affiliation with other scammers in other states is fairly new, but being watched closely...I wasn't aware that they were that involved with these other large-scale operations as much as they apparently are...

As I told the OP, even when these 2 first started out, they were shady as hell and everyone local to them stayed far away...The first time I even realized how horrible their practices are was years ago when I first started working at the Rescue, back when they would still advertise birds that they had for sale on all the local Craigslist Pet-Pages...They were very stupid back then and didn't cover their tracks very well at all, and they were searching all of the local PA Craigslist pages (anywhere they were willing to drive to from Scranton or Hazleton) for birds/parrots that people were re-homing...They bought every parrot they could cheaply from their prior owners, posing as women who simply wanted to adopt a bird to add to their families as pets...A lot of the time they didn't pay a cent for them, they were just re-homed to them because their owners wanted them to go to responsible, experienced homes...Then they would turn around and sell the birds for hundreds or thousands of dollars...And back when they still advertised and sold locally in PA, they would get caught posting a bird for sale that had just been posted a week or two prior for re-homing by their original owners (with fully made-up histories, ages, genders, etc., basically they just wrote their life-stories for them)...So that's when they stopped advertising locally and stopped selling them locally...It's literally impossible to buy a bird from them locally because you cannot see the birds first, and you cannot go and pick the birds up in-person or pay them in-person...They have to be air-shipped to you...

I once tried to see some Budgies they had advertised under "Lily's Parrots", which they said were "hand-raised and hand-fed, bred BY THEM "on-site", etc. I first contacted Ana, but she passed me off to "her partner, Lily", and gave me her phone number because "that's where the birds were bred and hand-raised, by her partner Lily"...When I contacted Lily she was horribly rude right from hello, and told me that not only could I not see the birds before purchasing them, but that I would have to pay $125 PER BUDGIE to air-ship them to me in State College, which is a 2-hour drive from Hazleton...When I said that this was ridiculous because the cost of shipping each bird from Hazleton to State College was more than the cost of the bird, and I was more than willing to drive to her any time that was good for her, she hung-up on me and never called me back or returned any of my emails either...

*****Bottom-line to what is currently being investigated is not only where their birds actually come from, where they are held/stored until they are sold, and whether or not the Health-Certificates, DNA Certificates, etc. that they supply with them are real, but also now whether they have regularly been committing Felony Mail-Fraud by taking money from people who are expecting a certain bird but being shipped a totally different bird, and with a history that is nothing like the phony one they list...Because animals/pets are considered "Personal-Property" in PA, there are limited things that law-enforcement can do about a lot of their practices or about how they treat the birds that they do buy from wherever they can get them and that they store in nasty, dirty warehouses; So the best way to nail them is by charging them with crimes such as Federal Mail-Fraud. It's sad, but that's really all that can be done as far as criminally charging them with anything due to the way the animal/pet laws in PA are written.

What everyone needs to know about Ana's Parrots and Lily's Parrots in Pennsylvania is that none of the birds they sell are ever bred, hand-raised, or hand-fed by them, and none of the bird's histories that they list are true. They buy every bird/parrot, both babies and adults, from any and every source they can find them, whether that be birds being re-homed on sites like Craigslist, in local newspapers, on Kijiji, and yes, birds that they "adopt" from local Avian Rescues and Animal Shelters (they pay an "adoption fee" or "Re-Homing Fee" of a couple hundred dollars for a Macaw, Cockatoo, CAG, etc., and then sell them for thousands of dollars)...They don't get their birds vet-checked and many of them are sick or injured, or have behavioral issues such as Feather-Destructive Behaviors...They don't know what medical issues their birds have because they don't know anything about the birds, they simply buy them/adopt them/rescue them from wherever they can, then they advertise them and sell them. They don't ever see a vet...It's really awful...

And the worst part is they use threats and intimidation to get people they've screwed-over and taken-advantage of to delete any negative reviews or comments that they've written online. And they themselves delete any negative reviews/comments from their own websites and social media pages that they control the second they're posted. They threaten people with civil lawsuits for "slander" and "libel", which is completely BS and they know they can't sue these people for posting negative reviews or comments about their experiences buying birds from them, but they just hope that they can scare the people enough that they'll not post anything negative and delete them if they already have...And filing complaints with the BBB or AG in Pennsylvania is usually useless, again because of the way animals/pets are considered "Personal Property" in PA...They will literally offer a "Replacement Bird" to these poor people who have spent thousands of dollars on a sick bird, but the people have to literally return the sick bird to them first...Then they just re-sell the sick bird again right away, and often send the person another sick bird...And that's only the people who actually file a complaint with the BBB or AG, they typically scare most people out of doing it in the first place for fear of a lawsuit because "They lost a lot of business due to your negative review, so I'm suing you in Civil Court for the amount of money I lost due to your Slander and Libel"...It's crap and would be thrown out of court if they ever did file them, which they never would, but it works...

I wasn't aware of the "Identity Fraud" thing, but am no surprised at all. Not one bit. These women are horrible people who take advantage of others on a daily basis, they lie, steal, commit fraud, and worst of all they exploit and abuse birds, and they rip people's hearts apart daily...And I hope one of them is reading this thread, go ahead and file your Lawsuit against me for "Slander", lol...Good luck!!!