African Grey price increase due to Defra / Article 10?

[noodles123]

Even doing all that doesn't sound expensive to me - $100 a year for the vet, $100 a year for dry food, come on, think how much you spend on your own food! Think how many tins of cat food you'd get through for a cat. Dogs and cats cost way more because they're bigger and eat more. And have the same vet bills and house damage costs. In fact everyone I know with dogs and cats have huge vet bills because those animals go outside where they can pick up infections.

Already answered last time - I bought them with cash as they were private sales, you can't get them in pet shops here (probably banned), no bank record.

lol re-read (if you have the time, as I know I wrote and wrote), but food is at least $300, and vet is closer to $400 (at least on that 3rd year)--I have to take mine in more than that for nail trimming and beak filing (because she came to me with scissor beak) but I didn't even include those costs in my quotes---that ends up costing a lot though (even though it is a special circumstance).

People often buy birds because they think they cannot afford or do not have the time for a dog or cat and this is a huge mistake, in my opinion.


Back to totals lol:

300 food
400 vet (on a decent year-excluding accidents and nail trims or any infection)--indoor birds still get infections etc. Stress can do a number on their immune systems- they just hide it better.
gas to get to the vet (avian specialists aren't common- so many drive 1-2 hours one-way)- $50 per trip
2 cages over lifetime at 1-4000 each (up to $8000)
travel cage at 100-300
play stands (minimum of $100 for one VERY lousy one--and up to $1000 for a solid, large tree-stand)
cleaning supplies/towels- probably 150 yearly
perches and toys - probably 300 even if I create my own stuff-
filters for various air purifiers $200-300 yearly with a cockatoo
air purifier itself was 700 (and that's just for 1)
boarding could easily set you back a few hundred
new pots/pans etc $50-$300 if needed
then there is the cost of the bird itself plus any other incidentals (like covers, curtains etc)

When I adopted mine, she came to me with a hidden/previously undiagnosed liver condition (despite assurance from multiple sources that she was healthy--these were based on "check ups" and observation-not any bloowork). If I hadn't insisted on bloodwork, it would have killed her within 1-2 years at most. She SEEMED fine to the average onlooker, but her levels were awful. That process alone cost me close to $1000, even though I know it doesn't happen to everyone. The liver condition wasn't my fault, but it goes to show that looking at a bird isn't enough. Then there were the medications and follow-ups which easily cost another $500...plus extra beak trims (as a result of the liver condition). She no longer has this problem, but despite the opinion of the rescue and 2 vets, she DID, in fact, have a very serious issue that could only be caught by taking blood.

Missed that about the bank record- sorry. Could photos or video work? What about receipts for cages or parrot food etc?

 

[bigfellasdad]

Oh Americans are WAY richer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
By a ratio of 21.4 to 2.7!
You guys are on average EIGHT TIMES richer. You have no idea what it's like in the UK. Nobody can afford anything.

You can have my cash, i'm sick of it lol

I pay £80 per year on vet check up. Food is negligible as you say for seed mix, lets say £80/y, fruit and veg is maybe £200/y. Toys/timber maybe £200/y, repair bills are a lot higher.....
I dont use T stands, Enzo likes to be high so she has swings from the ceilings, I recently bought a new cage for her £350 and her travel cage needs replacing so id say £250 for a good one. Sounds like UK prices are quite different from the USA...... How did this thread take this course?

One other difference, I asked my CAV for blood tests and he sort of looked at me as if i was weird. She is due her yearly visit in September, Ill ask him again or at least for a reason why he doesnt think its relevant (http://avianveterinaryservices.co.uk/avs-team/)

Enzo, with cage, 6 month of food, toys and cover cost me £0.00p btw.... i was seen coming

I cant see UK/USA cost of living being hugely different, wages too. Id imagine the state aid is a lot better in the UK for those that need it.

 

[bigfellasdad]

So do Americans have more parrots? The UK seems to be obsessed with dogs.

In the UK Dogs/Cats are by a mile more prevalent, however birds i think take up 3rd or 4th place. My road has 8 houses and 3 homes have parrots, 9 parrots in total, 1 house also has pigeons, both for show and racing. I love his 'tumbler' pigeons. My road is certainly the exception rather than the rule though, im very lucky as I have a lot of experience to call upon in case of emergency and also 2 homes to check up on Enzo if I am away for anything for any amount of time.

 

[noodles123]

There are literally pigeon racing clubs (with buildings) within an hour of me LOL.
Budgies are VERY popular childhood pets here and people don't understand that they are, in fact, parrots. For under $20 bucks for the bird at PetSmart etc, it's not an uncommon "first pet" for kids- who inevitably lose interest within weeks of the bird continuing to show fear...and then they have this miserable cage-bound bird in an inappropriately small cage in a home without knowledge of parrots and sadly, lots of people view them as disposable...like a goldfish or something (not that those are disposable either-- but it's especially upsetting given parrots' intelligence-- even the small ones). The cycle is self-perpetuating because pet-store chains encourage it, and many people's experiences with small birds is limited to a bird locked in a tiny cage in their childhood friend's bedroom...so it "seems" normal (unless you know better).

Many of the kids I work with will say stuff like, "man, I want a parrot. We only have a stupid cockatiel"...they are shocked to discover that their bird is, in fact, a parrot...with a ton of intelligence... but it doesn't change the fact that seeing a really well-trained parrot is way more impressive and they just don't have the patience, knowledge or devotion, to make that happen with theirs. When people meet my bird- they see how funny and nice she is and proclaim, "OMG I want one! How much are they???!" --ugh.....what they do not see is the years of daily work it took to make her this way, and how quickly she would stop being this way if I slacked off. They don't see the scream-fests and biting that occurred along the way, or the bedtimes or training or expenses...they just see a really cute, seemingly sweet, talking, novel, bird.

I also think that the stats on pet ownership are probably pretty skewed, as many people do not report their pets or take them to the vet...Growing up, we had a parakeet and that bird wouldn't have been documented anywhere...Plus, how would those stats know if a bird had died or been given up by original owners?
I have always wondered where they get that info.

It's not so much that everyone has parrots in the US- it's more like, it's very easy to get them if you have a credit card or cash and those who do, often do so without fully grasping what they are getting into. They get surrendered often, so the rescues can't keep up, and lots of people have this belief that only babies will bond with them, so you end up with baby birds available via breeders, plus tons of adult birds crowding up rescues without any viable future outside of the rescue (in part because people view them as less-desirable, and in part, because bouncing home-to-home often results in behavioral issues which take a decent understanding parrot behavior (and patience) in order to correct). Add to that, the fact that these birds live a long time, so they could spend their lives in a rescue--and then compound the issue with the fact that the once-desirable "babies" soon grow-up and join that re-homing cycle, while new babies continue to be bred and sold (making it even less likely that there will be enough homes for the surrendered and sometimes challenging adults).

Additionally, adopting from a rescue is often a bit more challenging because (much like adopting a dog from the Humane Society) they want to ensure that you will not sell the bird as soon as you acquire it or re-home the bird in the future. Consequently, they screen potential owners and that is off-putting to some, but the screening is important because if you can't provide for a bird's needs, it is honestly better off staying in the rescue...ANY home, is not the same as a GOOD home, and people don't get that. <- I remember someone getting really bent out of shape because they wanted a large bird in an apartment and they didn't have a lot of experience, so the rescue turned down their application--and for good reason. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules (always) but there wouldn't be such a HUGE surrendered population if most people kept the birds they adopted initially.

 

[hucker]

Noodles:

I trim my birds' nails myself, it's no harder than trimming my own nails (I guess a wild bird would be different, but cuddly tame hand reared birds should let you trim them, and are more likely to let someone who they're familiar with do it).

$100 a year for the vet checkup isn't much, unless they have a problem then it won't be a lot higher. A blood test isn't that expensive, I think it's about £40 here which is about $50. In fact a checkup shouldn't be $100. My vet charges a £30 basic rate for his time, then adds on extras if medicines are used. A healthy bird will therefore be £30 to look at per year.

So your totals:
$300 food. But assuming food is a similar price over there, a human pays about $50 a week for their own food, that's $2600 a year, almost ten times as much. What people should be avoiding is having kids, then wondering why they can't afford to feed them.

My vet is way cheaper than yours, he's an avian vet and I've listed the amounts above. He's also about 15 minutes away.

I don't use cages, I use aviaries, built them myself. A 3.5m x 1.5m x 8 foot high aviary cost me about £200 to build. It will last forever. Just a minute, $8000 for a cage?!? For that I'd expect it to be bigger than my house! What's it made of, 24 carat gold? Creating my own toys, perches etc, virtually free. Air purifiers, already got one, it's part of my heat pump that heats or cools the whole house. £480 for a 4.5kW output heater, air conditioner, dehumidifier, dust pollen and mould spore remover. Incidentals like curtains? I assume you mean the bird destroyed them. I can get curtains free on freecycle when people change their mind on the colour. Same goes for carpets, sofas, etc, I never pay for furniture. Even my washing machine and dishwasher and fridge freezer were free. Some people just redesign their homes pointlessly and throw stuff out that's in working order!

You might have read it before I added more text. I think I edited one to add more information after reading another post. Yeah I guess I can provide photos, but I can't prove when I took them, it's not like they look a different age after the first two years, and I got them at 7 years old. The aviary I bought on Ebay, I don't have a receipt, didn't bother keeping it as it's not the kind of thing that needs a warranty replacement! Ebay only keeps records for 6 months, so I can't show I bought food over 3 years ago - and I certainly couldn't prove which birds ate it! I think the DNA test will have to do, and only if they ever breed. They aren't really that interested. Two are in love, but despite having had nest boxes for 9 years, they just go in and cuddle or play. No sex has ever occurred.

I had 2 budgies as a kid, me and my sister never grew tired of them. Played with them every day. Why would a child get fed up of an animal?!

I assume the stats are guessed at by polls, that's the usual way. Eg. they don't know how many people watch a particular TV program, you don't report what channel you watch and when, but they ask 20,000 people then multiply it up.

I don't understand surrendering an expensive parrot. Apart from the cruelty, they're worth money! Sell them! If I don't want my car for any reason, I don't scrap it when I can get money for selling it to someone!

It's all very well the rescue centres being picky, as long as they can actually find a good one. Hopefully not with parrots, but I hear that dogs are often put down as they have too many. Best to give it a mediocre home somewhere than to kill it. I think there are plans to stop any rescue centre killing unwanted pets. Although someone has to pay for that.






Bigfellasdad:

Every time I go in a parrot forum (or any forum) an argument starts. I usually get banned. I've been banned from a Windows 10 forum for mentioning piratebay, and from a hillwalking forum for saying the word "damn" which is apparently a really evil swearword in the deep south religious parts of America, which is where the (power hungry) admin lived.

I find the USA prices quoted in here hard to believe. Maybe we just think they're richer because they have more money, but everything costs more. I thought prices were the other way round though, a long time ago a friend brought back from his holiday over there things like Nike trainers for a third of the price they are here.

 

[noodles123]

Noodles:

I trim my birds' nails myself, it's no harder than trimming my own nails (I guess a wild bird would be different, but cuddly tame hand reared birds should let you trim them, and are more likely to let someone who they're familiar with do it).

$100 a year for the vet checkup isn't much, unless they have a problem then it won't be a lot higher. A blood test isn't that expensive, I think it's about £40 here which is about $50. In fact a checkup shouldn't be $100. My vet charges a £30 basic rate for his time, then adds on extras if medicines are used. A healthy bird will therefore be £30 to look at per year.

So your totals:
$300 food. But assuming food is a similar price over there, a human pays about $50 a week for their own food, that's $2600 a year, almost ten times as much. What people should be avoiding is having kids, then wondering why they can't afford to feed them.

My vet is way cheaper than yours, he's an avian vet and I've listed the amounts above. He's also about 15 minutes away.

I don't use cages, I use aviaries, built them myself. A 3.5m x 1.5m x 8 foot high aviary cost me about £200 to build. It will last forever. Just a minute, $8000 for a cage?!? For that I'd expect it to be bigger than my house! What's it made of, 24 carat gold? Creating my own toys, perches etc, virtually free. Air purifiers, already got one, it's part of my heat pump that heats or cools the whole house. £480 for a 4.5kW output heater, air conditioner, dehumidifier, dust pollen and mould spore remover. Incidentals like curtains? I assume you mean the bird destroyed them. I can get curtains free on freecycle when people change their mind on the colour. Same goes for carpets, sofas, etc, I never pay for furniture. Even my washing machine and dishwasher and fridge freezer were free. Some people just redesign their homes pointlessly and throw stuff out that's in working order!

You might have read it before I added more text. I think I edited one to add more information after reading another post. Yeah I guess I can provide photos, but I can't prove when I took them, it's not like they look a different age after the first two years, and I got them at 7 years old. The aviary I bought on Ebay, I don't have a receipt, didn't bother keeping it as it's not the kind of thing that needs a warranty replacement! Ebay only keeps records for 6 months, so I can't show I bought food over 3 years ago - and I certainly couldn't prove which birds ate it! I think the DNA test will have to do, and only if they ever breed. They aren't really that interested. Two are in love, but despite having had nest boxes for 9 years, they just go in and cuddle or play. No sex has ever occurred.

I had 2 budgies as a kid, me and my sister never grew tired of them. Played with them every day. Why would a child get fed up of an animal?!

I assume the stats are guessed at by polls, that's the usual way. Eg. they don't know how many people watch a particular TV program, you don't report what channel you watch and when, but they ask 20,000 people then multiply it up.

I don't understand surrendering an expensive parrot. Apart from the cruelty, they're worth money! Sell them! If I don't want my car for any reason, I don't scrap it when I can get money for selling it to someone!

It's all very well the rescue centres being picky, as long as they can actually find a good one. Hopefully not with parrots, but I hear that dogs are often put down as they have too many. Best to give it a mediocre home somewhere than to kill it. I think there are plans to stop any rescue centre killing unwanted pets. Although someone has to pay for that.






Bigfellasdad:

Every time I go in a parrot forum (or any forum) an argument starts. I usually get banned. I've been banned from a Windows 10 forum for mentioning piratebay, and from a hillwalking forum for saying the word "damn" which is apparently a really evil swearword in the deep south religious parts of America, which is where the (power hungry) admin lived.

I find the USA prices quoted in here hard to believe. Maybe we just think they're richer because they have more money, but everything costs more. I thought prices were the other way round though, a long time ago a friend brought back from his holiday over there things like Nike trainers for a third of the price they are here.

I'm a spirited conversationalist lol- as long as we keep it civil, neither of use will be banned This is more like an enthusiastic chat- in my opinion. I enjoy hearing your opinions, honestly (even though my experiences have been different)!

I have an Umbrella Cockatoo, and she has broken out of metal cages with ease (wood would be out of the question and with stainless or powder coating being the only safe metals, I can't imagine finding those materials to construct anything suitable myself)-- she literally makes screw-drivers put of her toys (as well as wedges) and has opened locks on already locked doors...so GOLD would be far too soft to hold her LOL (although I'm sure she would love bending it to death). I couldn't build anything to keep her in very easily...unless Alcatraz builders want to provide me with instruction, materials and my own island lol. Her cage is open right now and she is still spending her time using a tool to break the locks on her food door...such a brat lol- Love her to death but my gosh. I have had to triple lock her doors because she just enjoys the challenge of opening them.

I think sometimes people just want their problems to be gone-- and if giving a bird away makes that happen, so be it. The other thing is, I think that a lot of people will give their birds to a rescue, knowing that the care the bird will get is better than what might occur if they sold the bird to another random person ---they is probably some guilt in certain cases---as in "gee, I thought I was up for the challenge and I wasn't but it isn't fair to "Polly", so I would rather surrender than risk another home like "mine".

 

[hucker]

I'm a spirited conversationalist lol- as long as we keep it civil, neither of use will be banned

I have an Umbrella Cockatoo, and she has broken out of metal cages with ease-- she literally makes screw-drivers and wedges and has opened lock on already locked doors...so GOLD would be far too soft to hold her LOL. I couldn't build anything to keep her in very easily...unless Alcatraz builders want to provide me with instruction, materials and my own island lol. Her cage is open right now and she is still spending her time using a tool to break the locks on her food door...such a brat lol- Love her to death but my gosh. I have had to triple lock her doors because she just enjoys the challenge of opening them.

I guarantee I'll get banned from here at some point. I can do it without even trying. I take it "damn" didn't bother you then I was even cautioned in a forum for pointing out the national IQ average in America is 2 lower than the UK

Buy spring loaded dog clips (those things you attach dog leads onto the dog collar with). Parrots can't open those, but they're quick and easy for you to open. Use them to hold the bars together of the door and the cage frame. That's what I do. If your bird is clever enough to open them, use an actual padlock, I assume she can't pick locks!

 

[noodles123]

I'm a spirited conversationalist lol- as long as we keep it civil, neither of use will be banned

I have an Umbrella Cockatoo, and she has broken out of metal cages with ease-- she literally makes screw-drivers and wedges and has opened lock on already locked doors...so GOLD would be far too soft to hold her LOL. I couldn't build anything to keep her in very easily...unless Alcatraz builders want to provide me with instruction, materials and my own island lol. Her cage is open right now and she is still spending her time using a tool to break the locks on her food door...such a brat lol- Love her to death but my gosh. I have had to triple lock her doors because she just enjoys the challenge of opening them.

I guarantee I'll get banned from here at some point. I can do it without even trying. I take it "damn" didn't bother you then I was even cautioned in a forum for pointing out the national IQ average in America is 2 lower then the UK

Buy spring loaded dog clips (those things you attach dog leads onto the dog collar with). Parrots can't open those, but they're quick and easy for you to open. Use them to hold the bars together of the door and the cage frame. That's what I do.

HAR HAR HAR- That lock is child's play for the great and powerful Noodles. Give her a day and she will remove the spring mechanism and all LOL! No lie...She dismantled her external door lock in 2 places and that seemed impossible lol.

 

[noodles123]

The thing that I have found works (for now) in terms of keeping the main door shut (in addition to swing-latches--and after she broke the main spring lock) is a stainless steel u-shaped boat hitch. On the food doors, I have the swing latches tightened as far as they can go and then I also added multiple locks with screw functions to the outside-I will have to look up what they are called, but they are harder for her to un-lock.

 

[hucker]

The thing that I have found works (for now) in terms of keeping the main door shut (in addition to swing-latches--and after she broke the main spring lock) is a stainless steel u-shaped boat hitch. On the food doors, I have the swing latches tightened as far as they can go and then I also added multiple locks with screw functions to the outside-I will have to look up what they are called, but they are harder for her to un-lock.

It's maybe easier for me as I don't have cages. My Greys are in a 3.5m x 2.5m x 8 foot high (yeah I mix imperial with metric) aviary (half the size of my original lounge / living room / whatever you call it over there). I did remove two interior walls so the lounge now occupies a bedroom and a hall aswell.

I can walk into the aviary through a door the size of a normal house door, held closed with 8 of those dog clips. Food and water is inside it on a table, no food doors. The whole thing is made of "2 inch welded mesh" held together by j-clips.

 

[SailBoat]

A few years ago, an African Grey in the UK was about £600 privately (hand reared cuddly tame). Now they're over double that. Did the article 10 thing by Defra cause more harm than good? Are there less breeders now? Is it hard to get a license? I hope they aren't going to make them extinct, because that's the opposite of what they intended!

So, what is your real reason for Posting this Thread? The tour seems to have spirited far from addressing the founding issue regarding Defra, article 10 and it adding to the cost of African Grey Parrots in England...

And No, I have no want to add to this tour... Bye...

 

[noodles123]

LOL, Sailboat---while you are correct, this is what sometimes happens! I am not sure of original intent, but I definitely voiced opinions that probably swayed things off-topic lol. DK....

 

[noodles123]

The thing that I have found works (for now) in terms of keeping the main door shut (in addition to swing-latches--and after she broke the main spring lock) is a stainless steel u-shaped boat hitch. On the food doors, I have the swing latches tightened as far as they can go and then I also added multiple locks with screw functions to the outside-I will have to look up what they are called, but they are harder for her to un-lock.

It's maybe easier for me as I don't have cages. My Greys are in a 3.5m x 2.5m x 8 foot high (yeah I mix imperial with metric) aviary (half the size of my original lounge / living room / whatever you call it over there). I did remove two interior walls so the lounge now occupies a bedroom and a hall aswell.

I can walk into the aviary through a door the size of a normal house door, held closed with 8 of those dog clips. Food and water is inside it on a table, no food doors. The whole thing is made of "2 inch welded mesh" held together by j-clips.

Just make sure that the welded mesh doesn't contain zinc etc, or you could have issues with metal poisoning down the road.

 

[hucker]

So, what is your real reason for Posting this Thread? The tour seems to have spirited far from addressing the founding issue regarding Defra, article 10 and it adding to the cost of African Grey Parrots in England...

And No, I have no want to add to this tour... Bye...

I posted for the reason I stated in the first post, I was wondering why the doubling in price, and whether it's helping or hindering the furthering of the African Grey species.

And why do you have a problem with the art of conversation? You should try it some time. We're all learning from each other.

 

[SailBoat]

LOL- Come on now, Sailboat---while you are correct, this is what sometimes happens! I am not sure of original intent, but I definitely voiced opinions that probably swayed things off-topic lol. DK....

Or, as a result of a pre-determined goal?
You placed a ton of work here and for the views great points.

 

[SailBoat]

So, what is your real reason for Posting this Thread? The tour seems to have spirited far from addressing the founding issue regarding Defra, article 10 and it adding to the cost of African Grey Parrots in England...

And No, I have no want to add to this tour... Bye...

I posted for the reason I stated in the first post, I was wondering why the doubling in price, and whether it's helping or hindering the furthering of the African Grey species.

And why do you have a problem with the art of conversation? You should try it some time. We're all learning from each other.

Hmmm, if true, why are you banned so very often?

 

[hucker]

The thing that I have found works (for now) in terms of keeping the main door shut (in addition to swing-latches--and after she broke the main spring lock) is a stainless steel u-shaped boat hitch. On the food doors, I have the swing latches tightened as far as they can go and then I also added multiple locks with screw functions to the outside-I will have to look up what they are called, but they are harder for her to un-lock.

It's maybe easier for me as I don't have cages. My Greys are in a 3.5m x 2.5m x 8 foot high (yeah I mix imperial with metric) aviary (half the size of my original lounge / living room / whatever you call it over there). I did remove two interior walls so the lounge now occupies a bedroom and a hall aswell.

I can walk into the aviary through a door the size of a normal house door, held closed with 8 of those dog clips. Food and water is inside it on a table, no food doors. The whole thing is made of "2 inch welded mesh" held together by j-clips.

Just make sure that the welded mesh doesn't contain zinc etc, or you could have issues with metal poisoning down the road.

They're all galvanised. You'd better inform every single manufacturer of them if you think it's harmful! They're sold for parrot aviaries all over the UK, everyone uses them.

[googles] I think the problem is powder coated ones (as in cheap rubbish). Proper galvanised ones like mine (essential if outdoors or they rust) don't let the zinc out of them even when chewed on. There's no evidence of any damage to mine over 9 years.

 

[noodles123]

So, what is your real reason for Posting this Thread? The tour seems to have spirited far from addressing the founding issue regarding Defra, article 10 and it adding to the cost of African Grey Parrots in England...

And No, I have no want to add to this tour... Bye...

I posted for the reason I stated in the first post, I was wondering why the doubling in price, and whether it's helping or hindering the furthering of the African Grey species.

And why do you have a problem with the art of conversation? You should try it some time. We're all learning from each other.

Stay civil- Sailboat is awesome- just probably saw all of our ranting and didn't read it all (I mean, I wouldn't...it's a long and winding road).

 

[noodles123]

It's maybe easier for me as I don't have cages. My Greys are in a 3.5m x 2.5m x 8 foot high (yeah I mix imperial with metric) aviary (half the size of my original lounge / living room / whatever you call it over there). I did remove two interior walls so the lounge now occupies a bedroom and a hall aswell.

I can walk into the aviary through a door the size of a normal house door, held closed with 8 of those dog clips. Food and water is inside it on a table, no food doors. The whole thing is made of "2 inch welded mesh" held together by j-clips.

Just make sure that the welded mesh doesn't contain zinc etc, or you could have issues with metal poisoning down the road.

They're all galvanised. You'd better inform every single manufacturer of them if you think it's harmful! They're sold for parrot aviaries all over the UK, everyone uses them.

Galvanized is bad- and they probably know that...It's all about the money. It won't hurt a chicken or a small bird (in theory) but a long-lived parrot with a strong beak could be looking at chelation therapy long-term.

 

[noodles123]

LOL- Come on now, Sailboat---while you are correct, this is what sometimes happens! I am not sure of original intent, but I definitely voiced opinions that probably swayed things off-topic lol. DK....

Or, as a result of a pre-determined goal?
You placed a ton of work here and for the views great points.

I don't mind a civil argument-- I wasn't able to find compost for my garden, so I've got time lol!