Biting is YOUR fault!

[goalerjones]

My breeder told me that biting is typical flock behavior. The alpha will actually pin the offender on their back and bite them if they keep trying to fight. Thats how some lose toes in packs, by using their feet to resist. He said to return a bite for a bite at the top of the beak to reinforce dominance, after putting him on his back. I am too afraid of cracking my Hahns beak so I don't actually do this. But I do put him on his back until he understands he was in the wrong. I raise my voice, keep him pinned for a bit, then he gets to go free after he tells me "Ok". Its our signal that he is willing to behave again.

 

[WharfRat]

Goaler, I understand the thought process there completely..........wanna try that with a Green Wing???

Some birds are just downright mean...PERIOD! I know, I've met a few unfortunately. I also kind of disagree with the original OP in a way. If one has a younger bird that has not matured yet and you are in the process of trying train/teach it "proper" behavior, is it still "your" fault? It's a process that can take time, I stand steadfastly by my one line in my sig, you WILL get bit, it's just a matter of time. I honestly don't think all bites are your fault, alot of them are just pure instinct from the bird not knowing the situation they're in at the time. I get bit all the time, I expect it and know it's coming pretty much each and every time, this happens when I'm doing normal routines with the flock, some just don't like me as well as the others, is it my fault they don't like me? Think about that one for a bit.

 

[barw33zy]

I didn't chase the bird........i was actually going to pick him up to put him in his cage......

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

I wasn't accusing you of chasing your bird, also I was responding to a comment you made without specifying it was something that actually happened to you. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Either way, he doesn't want to be put back in his cage, and I understand that sometimes this is a requirement at times like if you have to leave for work and bites are unavoidable. However, if you open your mind and look at it a different way, your bird is a wild animal, it is not a domestic breed like a dog or a cat. He/she didn't ask to be bred and live in captivity and you are privileged to have him as a companion. You are the one who has to go to work or and appointment, it is your "fault" the wild breed of parrot needs to be re-caged because you are the one who blessed to be able to keep him in your home full of electrical cords, ceiling fans, etc. You are also the one who has the ability to take the time and effort to use training techniques to teach your bird not to bite when you put him back in his cage. If your bird was living in his natural habitat, this wouldn't be an issue.

Again, to quote myself "your fault" is not a cold hard fact. It is not necessarily intended to assign blame. It is to encourage a different way of thinking while living with your parrot, a way that has helped me(and others) build a strong bond with my bird.

Edit: Here I was just clarifying how your situation could be looked at with the concept of the original post, you didn't say much about the scenario so I can't even speculate how you were doing anything wrong, and I wasn't making that speculation.

 

[barw33zy]

If one has a younger bird that has not matured yet and you are in the process of trying train/teach it "proper" behavior, is it still "your" fault? It's a process that can take time

I think the answer to this can be yes. When training "proper" behavior, you are attempting to get the bird to do/not do something YOU want them to. It certainly isn't the parrots fault you put him in your house and he wants to chew everything and you find that unacceptable or unsafe. In his natural environment he gets to chew anything and everything, and does it instinctively. This may be strange to a bird that you DON'T want him to do that. (this is an example of one instance, but I think you can apply this thinking to almost anything you try to train your bird, if you want to that is) I agree, it is absolutely a process that can take time, it probably takes significantly more time and patience the way I do it, but it also takes less bites

I honestly don't think all bites are your fault, alot of them are just pure instinct from the bird not knowing the situation they're in at the time. I get bit all the time, I expect it and know it's coming pretty much each and every time, this happens when I'm doing normal routines with the flock, some just don't like me as well as the others, is it my fault they don't like me? Think about that one for a bit.

Is it not your "fault" for putting your bird in a situation they don't know?

While it is probably not your fault they don't like you, the fact may still stand that they don't like you, or like you as much as your other birds. It is YOU who are trying to work with a parrot who doesn't like you, he didn't ask to be a part of a trick routine. He was born to fly, forage, and chew.

I never handle a bird that doesn't like me until it is on his terms(which means maybe after some time I have earned some "like"). I also never make a bird do something he doesn't like me enough to allow.

For example, it took me a year to get Sonny to lie on his back in my hand, it was on his time based on the trust I had gradually earned. Every day I attempted to do it, starting with simply cupping my hand on his back and moving forward from there at his pace, I never pushed him. Now my vet is amazed at how I lay him on his back with no objections and pull each wing out for a trim. And never once did Sonny feel the need to bite me in the process.

I am not attempting to force anyone to do things my way, but please try to at least see the reason.

Edit:To clarify, I said I think the answer "CAN" be yes, then gave an example of how it COULD, I am not trying to say it IS and tell you you are wrong. The second part, I ASKED is it was not your fault, then gave an example of how it could be looked at this way. I didn't tell you is WAS your fault, but it is a fact that you are the one initiating the training and that is ok and actually even a good thing.

 

[WharfRat]

Scenario: The Zon's tolerate me, but don't like me. However I have to make sure they have food and water. I will get bit in doing this. It is not my fault that I get bit, it is my choice. I do this for them regardless, even knowing what they'll do. I think you're just misrepresenting your wording is all.

It is YOU who are trying to work with a parrot who doesn't like you, he didn't ask to be a part of a trick routine

No "trick" involved, its a daily thing that has gone on for over a year. If you knew the history between me and the Zon's, you'd have a better grasp of what I'm trying to say.

It's not my "fault" I get bit, it's merely a process I go thru to not get bit.

I guess what I'm saying is that it ain't always a oerson's fault they get bit. When you get a puppy, is it your fault they pee'd on the floor? No, it's a matter of training and discipline. (and patience)

I could avoid getting bit completely, but I wouldn't be much of a "owner" would I? Don't try to place the blame on people when it's an instinctive behavior in an animal.

Owning a parrot and getting bit is simple, it is gonna happen and there ain't nothing you can do about it other than never handling your bird. Let's not put the notion in the minds of people coming here for advice that it's their fault, it is merely a part of having a bird.

 

[MikeyTN]

Ok, let's see where this takes me....

YES when we do proper training is we are teaching them to do what we want them to do. BUT isn't that the reason for domesticating? YES they can still be themselves, BUT with the proper training they should know what NOT to do because they were taught early on. NO it's not the parrots' fault we put them into our houses BUT it doesn't mean they have to chew up everything as chewing on certain stuff is unsafe for any animal to chew on! YES in their natural environment they get to chew on whatever they want, BUT in your home is NOT a natural environment so it needs to be properly educated! IF you want to allow to bird to do what they want in your home, that's your business really but I personally think it's not wise to do cause that cause more potential problem then you think, I'm using my Java as an example, he was allowed to do whatever he wants in his previous home, I did the home visit and I see everything chewed up, wall, couch, blinds, etc etc. Some of those stuffs can actually make him sick. Since he moved in he think he can still do the same thing that I've been trying to correct for quite some time now. IF you allow them to do whatever they want, I just wonder what food you are feeding your bird cause they most likely would want seeds, they eat seeds in the wild, are you providing all you can eat seed buffet?

Bird can LEARN in different situation as long as they are taught properly! Even the ones they don't know. They're not dumb you know, they can learn! Even when a parrot don't like you, it doesn't mean you can't work with them!!!!! For instance in my household, we NEVER force any bird to go to someone they don't want, BUT at the same time we need them to respect the other person whom they don't like, that prevents further issues down the road. I am able to hold ALL my birds, even the ones that prefers my partner. It takes time and patience to teach that. BUT you just need to learn their body language on when to back off when they are not in the mood to learn. My partner can hold all except two, Java and Willie, as they both sees me as their mate, nothing I can do about that part. Java WILL fly to attack my partner or anyone that comes within distance. Willie WILL lounge at anyone who comes too close to me. Those ARE their natural instinct that you will NOT be prepared for or stop them from doing so.

A lot of us have owned, raised, trained, etc for YEARS, it's NOT our first rodeo and most of us DO know what we're talking about. We may have disagreements but for someone who haven't really had all that many knowledge with years of experience in birds to come back and push their beliefs onto others is NOT something I enjoy reading. You can explain your part of what you know but also know when to end. Peace out....

 

[goalerjones]

I have to say this, bites happen for predictable or unpredictable reasons. A sudden noise, the loss of grip, the need for food, water, or a place to poop can all trigger a bite. The more you are around your bird the better you will know both the likely noises and their personal triggers. My Hahns bites my earlobes for food, water or it being time to poop.

 

[MonicaMc]

My breeder told me that biting is typical flock behavior. The alpha will actually pin the offender on their back and bite them if they keep trying to fight. Thats how some lose toes in packs, by using their feet to resist. He said to return a bite for a bite at the top of the beak to reinforce dominance, after putting him on his back. I am too afraid of cracking my Hahns beak so I don't actually do this. But I do put him on his back until he understands he was in the wrong. I raise my voice, keep him pinned for a bit, then he gets to go free after he tells me "Ok". Its our signal that he is willing to behave again.

You really make me cringe at this... there is no one flock leader, so there is no alpha animal... and new studies have even gone on to say that wolves in the wild *DO NOT* have alpha leaders. A wolf pack is made up of a pair of wolves and their offspring. Occasionally, stray wolves may also join the pack, but there is not in fact an alpha leadership. The idea of alpha dogs came from studying wolves in zoos. That's like studying human behavior in prison camps.

Yes, parrots fight and bicker, but it's not to be flock leader. Please, please get "dominance" out of your vocabulary!!!!


Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin
Natural Encounters, Inc. - TRAINING & EDUCATION - FAQs
The Struggle for Dominance: Fact or Fiction?
Height dominance is a myth - ParrotChronicles Why Does My Bird Do That? Q&A
dominance
Establishing Dominance Over Your Parrot? « Best in Flock – Parrot Blog
RP - Biting



Here's another way of thinking how our behaviors affect our birds. I would suggest reading all of it.

Does your Parrot have a Trust account?

 

[goalerjones]

I beg to differ Monica. My breeder has a full free-flight aviary setup with his birds. And in this aviary he gets to observe their pack behaviors closeup and personal. This is something that most aviculturists dont get to do in the wild since it mostly occurs out of sight in the canopy. He has watched the behavior I mentioned above in person. There is literally one leader bird and others follow that one.

 

[MikeyTN]

I do have to agree with goalerjones on this one as I have observed the same thing in my aviary before! When you see birds fly south, do you see the one upfront in the point? That one is usually the strongest one that tries to lead all to follow. I see that in the parrot behavior too where one tries to be more dominant then the other ones where everyone is actually afraid of that particular bird because of dominance.

 

[barw33zy]

I couldn't agree with you more Mikey, there are many unsafe things in our homes and we are responsible for making sure our parrots don't get a hold of them. I certainly do not let my conure do or eat anything he wants. I free feed a little seed mix at the bottom of his dish, even less fruit and nut mix, then pellet all over the top so he has to dig for the seed, plus fresh cut veggies and sometimes fruit. Birds do not eat only seed in the wild so I do not offer only seed, plus the issue of their level of activity given consideration.

I also agree that a bird can be taught anything, and I just use more time and don't force biting in the process.

A lot of us have owned, raised, trained, etc for YEARS, it's NOT our first rodeo and most of us DO know what we're talking about. We may have disagreements but for someone who haven't really had all that many knowledge with years of experience in birds to come back and push their beliefs onto others is NOT something I enjoy reading. You can explain your part of what you know but also know when to end. Peace out....

I am well aware that my experience is, to quote my OP "admittedly limited in comparison to many of you", however this concept doesn't only span MY time having birds. I learned it from someone who does in fact have "years of experience" to back it.

I am not trying to "push" anything on anyone, if you read, I specifically addressed that to not be my intentions. However, for example, when I suggest,"you must have done something to cause your bird to bite you and this is why" and the response is, "No I didn't because my bird bites me because he doesn't like me", that person doesn't understand the angle of view that I am talking about, and since they posted on my thread, I am happy to try and explain it a different, more case specific way.

If anyone else wants me to stop talking about this please let me know and I will, if this is the general consensus. Until then, if you reply to me, I will not ignore you and will engage in a conversation with you about this topic. If you would not like to engage in a conversation with me about this topic, simply do not reply. I am not trying to offend anyone and it is YOUR parrot, after all, you may do what you like short of mistreatment.

 

[cthulhus_minion]

Some think they know everything. Everybody has a right to an opinion and you have no right to tell someone when they can talk. Respect everyone and don't try to push your views on others. This goes for people on both sides of the discussion.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[cthulhus_minion]

My last post was mainly meant for Mikey for his last post.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[barw33zy]

I was starting to wonder if I actually was being too pushy, since you were on of the 2 people I gave a long response to, and the only one that has had back and forth comms with me, I'll take it I am not, thanks for clearing that up Minion.

A piece of advice for your bird not wanting to be put back in his cage, when you have him out playing and what not, make a habit of putting him back and then taking him right back out from time to time. I guess he will stop associating being put back in his cage with the end of fun time. It worked exceptionally well for me, I have absolutely no problems with it anymore.

 

[barw33zy]

Scenario: The Zon's tolerate me, but don't like me. However I have to make sure they have food and water. I will get bit in doing this. It is not my fault that I get bit, it is my choice. I do this for them regardless, even knowing what they'll do. I think you're just misrepresenting your wording is all.

It is YOU who are trying to work with a parrot who doesn't like you, he didn't ask to be a part of a trick routine

No "trick" involved, its a daily thing that has gone on for over a year. If you knew the history between me and the Zon's, you'd have a better grasp of what I'm trying to say.

It's not my "fault" I get bit, it's merely a process I go thru to not get bit.

I guess what I'm saying is that it ain't always a oerson's fault they get bit. When you get a puppy, is it your fault they pee'd on the floor? No, it's a matter of training and discipline. (and patience)

I could avoid getting bit completely, but I wouldn't be much of a "owner" would I? Don't try to place the blame on people when it's an instinctive behavior in an animal.

Owning a parrot and getting bit is simple, it is gonna happen and there ain't nothing you can do about it other than never handling your bird. Let's not put the notion in the minds of people coming here for advice that it's their fault, it is merely a part of having a bird.

It is true that bites will happen regardless of what you do, when it does, I like to think it was my fault, it helps me see the parrots side of the story and decide what not to do, what to do differently, or what to work on.

I'd like to clarify once again quoting myself that it is "more of a way of thinking", "not necessarily intended to place blame".

I think having the notion that it is your fault can be very constructive, and I do agree that this isn't always 100% true. However, I believe you can always look at it through different eyes if you want to, and you may find a different story, maybe not a 100% true story, but a story worthwhile of considering nonetheless.

 

[cthulhus_minion]

Naw barw33zy you are fine. Just some people think they have the only right to have their opinions voiced and those of us with less experience should just not talk.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[cthulhus_minion]

And I had took that bird back to the store and got a younger bird that hasn't learned any bad habits before I got him. My new one has no cage problems and seems alot more calm

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[barw33zy]

In light of recent events, I would like to clarify something to everyone, especially since I have had to repetitively quote myself.

In the FIRST sentence of my original post, the thread starter, I said that this was a CONCEPT, which, by definition, is a "General notion or idea." Not a fact, not a law, just an idea.

Edit: P.S. I also referred to it as a "mindset", which should have further removed any concrete solidarity you may have misinterpreted. I really hope this brings clarity to the original post.

P.P.S. Mindset is a mental attitude that determines a person's response to a situation before it happens.

 

[barw33zy]

Let's get back on track where we left off.

My breeder told me that biting is typical flock behavior. The alpha will actually pin the offender on their back and bite them if they keep trying to fight. Thats how some lose toes in packs, by using their feet to resist. He said to return a bite for a bite at the top of the beak to reinforce dominance, after putting him on his back. I am too afraid of cracking my Hahns beak so I don't actually do this. But I do put him on his back until he understands he was in the wrong. I raise my voice, keep him pinned for a bit, then he gets to go free after he tells me "Ok". Its our signal that he is willing to behave again.

You really make me cringe at this... there is no one flock leader, so there is no alpha animal... and new studies have even gone on to say that wolves in the wild *DO NOT* have alpha leaders. A wolf pack is made up of a pair of wolves and their offspring. Occasionally, stray wolves may also join the pack, but there is not in fact an alpha leadership. The idea of alpha dogs came from studying wolves in zoos. That's like studying human behavior in prison camps.

Yes, parrots fight and bicker, but it's not to be flock leader. Please, please get "dominance" out of your vocabulary!!!!

The two responses to the contrary of this referred to birds in aviaries. An aviary is captivity like a zoo, so those replies have no bearing against this post.

However... they do have bearing on all of our birds, since they are in fact in captivity, like wolves in a zoo. You seem to have been arguing related, but non-conflicting points.

So can we agree that our "alphas"(in captivity only) sometimes bite and its not "our fault"?

Edit:I've skimmed through your links...

Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin
Natural Encounters, Inc. - TRAINING & EDUCATION - FAQs
The Struggle for Dominance: Fact or Fiction?
Height dominance is a myth - ParrotChronicles Why Does My Bird Do That? Q&A
dominance
Establishing Dominance Over Your Parrot? « Best in Flock – Parrot Blog
RP - Biting

I did find a lot of study on "height dominance" not existing(when a bird is higher up than you), and dominance not existing in wild flocks, but nothing saying it doesn't exist in captivity. If birds are like wolves as you suggest, and wolves have alphas in captivity, then our birds would also have alphas in captivity. Just not in the wild, or specifically while high on your shoulder.

Sure, to study a wolf in captivity is like studying a person in prison, but when you want to learn about a people in prison(captivity) they would be the perfect specimens to study!

 

[WharfRat]

THen my suggestion to you is this. Go back and edit your first post (don't think you can do it with the subject) stating a "disclaimer" of sorts that this is a "concept" so people will realize right away it's conjecture and not fact. Your title wording is very direct and specific if not confrontational in the least. Just my .02 cents.