clicker training FLAW.

[cylent]

I have a quick question about "Clicker" training.

I am very interested in the subject because I would like to try it.

I am planning on getting a IRN however where i am in the world most of these creatures are untamed. some are tamed to a level of you are able to handle the bird but that's it. nothing like saying "Step up" or whatever its just "he can get on your hand so he's tame" type deal.

Now. Knowing this so far lets say the bird is OK to get on your hand however he doesn't know why he got on your hand. he just knows he's trusting of humans.

so far so good.

in the clicker training videos I've seen there's one big gap/question i keep asking.
everyone says "Point at something and repeat it to the parrot until he does it".
really? the gap/question that my brain keeps missing is this: THE BIRD doesn't understand my language. how can i positively click the clicker and give a treat when the bird has NO CLUE what i am trying to achieve?

am i the only seeing the flaw in this? or am i missing something in this whole training method?

 

[Sterling1113]

Most of the time before anyone starts doing any tricks with a clicker, they do something called "conditioning" the bird to the clicker.
You're right in the sense that the bird will not hear the clicker and think "I like that noise. That's a nice noise. I'm going to do whatever I can to hear that noise again."

But what I do when I use a clicker, is I get the birds attention, I click the clicker then give them a treat. (Seed. millet, something the bird enjoys more than regular food but is healthy.)

After a while of that the bird will hear the click then look out for a treat, because he has associated click = treat. And of course, treat = good.

So now you can start doing things like saying "Step up" before prompting the bird onto your hand, once he does step up praise him and click the clicker and reward with a treat.

What I do is when I'm training with a specific phrase, is I say it ALLOT. Like if my bird steps up on command, instead of "good bird!" by itself, I say things like "Good boy/girl/birds name! Good step-up!" so they hear the phrase enough to realize that step-up = getting on your hand..

Hope that helps. If I went in the totally wrong direction with this, sorry! I betcha someone else will come along with a better answer. Best of luck with your birdie!!!

 

[cylent]

Most of the time before anyone starts doing any tricks with a clicker, they do something called "conditioning" the bird to the clicker.
You're right in the sense that the bird will not hear the clicker and think "I like that noise. That's a nice noise. I'm going to do whatever I can to hear that noise again."

But what I do when I use a clicker, is I get the birds attention, I click the clicker then give them a treat. (Seed. millet, something the bird enjoys more than regular food but is healthy.)

After a while of that the bird will hear the click then look out for a treat, because he has associated click = treat. And of course, treat = good.

So now you can start doing things like saying "Step up" before prompting the bird onto your hand, once he does step up praise him and click the clicker and reward with a treat.

What I do is when I'm training with a specific phrase, is I say it ALLOT. Like if my bird steps up on command, instead of "good bird!" by itself, I say things like "Good boy/girl/birds name! Good step-up!" so they hear the phrase enough to realize that step-up = getting on your hand..

Hope that helps. If I went in the totally wrong direction with this, sorry! I betcha someone else will come along with a better answer. Best of luck with your birdie!!!

Thanks for the ultra-fast reply.

I undrestand the conditioning part. I give the bird a treat then i click. That part is in the initiation. got it.
so after this he knows if i click he gets "a treat". Correct?






I feel as though I am still not getting the message through though.

the bird, and excuse my frustration, does NOT understand our language and never will ...

HOW on earth will the bird understand "Step up" by saying the word?

This is where i am confused and lost.

I think most of the people succeeding in this are simply 100% lucky. just pure ol' luck.

unless of course there's an invisible "fairy" translating to the bird what "Step up" means and pushing the bird towards the hand.

Is my question making sense?

 

[Sterling1113]

I think you're underestimating the intelligence levels of parrots. They very much do understand what we say and what it means. That doesn't mean they will observe and join in to our conversations like a child human would, but they definitely learn quickly, and some types of birds WILL say phrases or words in context if they've heard it enough.. I'm sure someone with larger parrots will pop in and give examples.

Like when you teach a dog to sit. The dog doesn't know what the word means, how to spell it, what else the word may mean or synonyms for it,
but that dog does know when I say "sit" and he puts his butt on the ground he gets a treat.

My birds understand a great amount of words and phrases.
"Come here!"
"Get off that!"
"Shush, it's bed time."
"Don't bite! Be easy."
and things like that. It just takes time for them to learn, just like it takes time for anyone to learn a new language. And you'll also learn about your birds language, what sounds mean what, which cry means he's hungry and which cry means he's happy.. and body language too. It's really hard to explain through text.

With conditioning and the step-up training the bird will learn that when he hears step-up, he should get up on the hand. He will either get praise or a treat.(along with the clicking for the first while. After he's got the hang of it you can usually put the clicker down and just use a verbal command until you're ready to teach other tricks.)

 

[Sterling1113]

I think most of the people succeeding in this are simply 100% lucky. just pure ol' luck.

unless of course there's an invisible "fairy" translating to the bird what "Step up" means and pushing the bird towards the hand.

If luck is the case, then it would seem 99.99% of people who use clicker training, or training in general are VERY lucky people...

Or maybe parrots are very smart and capable of understanding human language.

 

[Featheredsamurai]

Vocal communication is not needed in early training, that is something you can use with a completely tame bird. For example, I used the word "Hi" while training Rosie to wave, as well as teaching her a hand signal.

When I clicker trained a untamed cockatiel it went like this

I held the target stick nearby, it took a few tries, but eventually he got curious and took the step over to touch it. In that instant I clicked my clicker and rewarded him with millet spray(millet spray is long, so scary hands don't have to come near them). It only took about 15 minutes for the cockatiel to start realizing that when he heard the click noise he got a treat. For a week I'd do 5 minute training sessions throughout the day, and always ended on a excellent moment. As he grew more confident I made him walk towards the clicker, and eventually was able to target him to hop on my arm(first I had him reach over my arm for a treat, to build confidence around it)

If he doesn't know how to step up no worries! Don/t go straight to the step up part, instead place your hand nearby, and reward when he takes even the tiniest step towards you(or if he's terrified, reward him for staying still). Once you are able to have your hand close, reward him for touching your hand, and then if he lightly touches it with a foot reward that! Take tiny steps, literally train and reward every step of the process because he has no idea how to step up. don't worry about vocals at this moment, you can always work on them later when you're fine tuning these behaviors

Going straight into the step up training, by pressing on the lower breast, with a wild or fearful bird likely create hand phobias.

 

[Sterling1113]

Thank you, Copperarabian! My replies were assuming the bird was considered tame and didn't mind being held... my bad!!

 

[MangieSun]

Start with target touch training with a target stick through the cage (once the clicker has meaning ). Say "touch" when he touches the end of the stick gently. Do this over and over and then start moving it around the cage. He will want to follow and touch for the reward. Once he gets the hang of the touch training you can use the stick to lead him out of his cage. Then place your hand in front of the bird and make him touch it over your hand. Eventually you'll be able to get him stepping on your hand which will then be teamed with the step up phrase. It's a wonderful method and once they target train you can use it as a stepping stone for tricks which in turn builds a bond. Keep sessions short. You will be amazed at how quickly they get it. I'm on day four of trick training and Jasper knows spin and wave.

Hope that all kind of makes sense. It's not that the Bird understands the words, it's just that you eventually use the words as a cue that they understand.

 

[HisAngel]

Clicker training to begin with is often about 'catching' them doing the right thing and rewarding it. You have to do things in steps. First catch/teach them to something simple, like take a step towards a certain place on your training area. Click, praise and treat. Then the next step to whatever behaviour you are trying to teach and add a key word to it (step up, wave etc..) Clicker training is about reinforcing good behaviour, by praising them for doing something positive. You are teaching them associate a sound/word with treats and praise and attention.

I dont know if that made ANY sense LOL But it's about using what they are doing naturally or on their own to start, and then adding bits to it in steps as you go, which training them to listen for key words, with they've associated with the behaviour you've trained them to do. It isnt about understand your language necessarily, more learning to associate words with behaviours. The clicker is used as it is immediate and makes them immediately aware of what they've done right. Its less confusing than words, as you have to do everything in steps, the word is added once youve got the steps down and wish to make it a full behaviour/trick/whatever.

Does that make sense?

 

[Featheredsamurai]

Start with target touch training with a target stick through the cage (once the clicker has meaning ). Say "touch" when he touches the end of the stick gently. Do this over and over and then start moving it around the cage. He will want to follow and touch for the reward. Once he gets the hang of the touch training you can use the stick to lead him out of his cage. Then place your hand in front of the bird and make him touch it over your hand. Eventually you'll be able to get him stepping on your hand which will then be teamed with the step up phrase. It's a wonderful method and once they target train you can use it as a stepping stone for tricks which in turn builds a bond. Keep sessions short. You will be amazed at how quickly they get it. I'm on day four of trick training and Jasper knows spin and wave.

Hope that all kind of makes sense. It's not that the Bird understands the words, it's just that you eventually use the words as a cue that they understand.

I've never once used vocals for touch training, although I suppose it's fine if people do. Birds are smart though, if they see the target stick they'll understand what you want from them.

 

[Birdman666]

I tried clicker training more than a decade ago when I was rehabbing birds down at the rescue. I wasn't very good at it. It wasn't a method that suited me.

And the clicker annoyed the hell out of the greenwing I was working with. He grabbed the cllcker out of my hand, ran off with it and CRUNCH....

THAT WAS THE END OF MY CLICKER TRAINING PERIOD!

I do better with voice commands, hand signals, praise and food rewards.

 

[MangieSun]

[/quote]
I've never once used vocals for touch training, although I suppose it's fine if people do. Birds are smart though, if they see the target stick they'll understand what you want from them.[/QUOTE]


Yes. Vocals not necessary. That's my personal preference.

I've trained dogs with clicker training and found that with dogs the vocal cue worked best for me. Dogs and bird training, so so different but I do what works and what I'm used to. I believe there is no one way to accomplish it for sure. Just sharing my method.

 

[Birdman666]

Funny aside - I SCREWED UP TOTALLY when I was recall training my birds.

I worked with them one on one, and used a hand signal and voice command.

IDIOT! I used the same hand signal for all my birds... GUESS WHAT HAPPENED THE MINUTE I GAVE THE HAND SIGNAL IN A FLOCK SETTING...

DOH!

 

[HisAngel]

Funny aside - I SCREWED UP TOTALLY when I was recall training my birds.

I worked with them one on one, and used a hand signal and voice command.

IDIOT! I used the same hand signal for all my birds... GUESS WHAT HAPPENED THE MINUTE I GAVE THE HAND SIGNAL IN A FLOCK SETTING...

DOH!

LOL Oh my word! You must have felt such panic. LOL

 

[Birdman666]

F

LOL Oh my word! You must have felt such panic. LOL

I didn't, but my red lored and my conure did, when they realized the macaws and another amazon were all headed for that exact same spot on my forearm...

We needed an air traffic controller for that one...

Just like O'Hare airport, I had one or two circling in a holding pattern overhead...

Smart, and yet oh so stupid! Story of my life, eh?!

 

[cylent]

wow.

Thank you all for the replies. much appreciated.

I am sorry to say this all is simply not syncing in with me.

I feel as though in the procedure people use there's a "hidden" part that people are either "assuming" or "doing" not being said.

please, for crying out loud, don't give me the whole "birds are intelligent creatures" argument. I KNOW they are. I never doubted that for a minute.

All I am asking is this: IF i was a parrot and a giant (being a human) had a hand pointed out or opened to me I'd ignore it.
Whats to make me, (the parrot in this scenario) want to do what the hand points me to do and not just ignore it? dont say the clicker.
i am getting a headache trying to make sense of this.

at this point i am getting seriously discouraged by this whole procedure is making me anxious thinking about it.

I watched a few YouTube videos about how this can be achieved and once more i feel there's a "hidden step" that's not being shown or assumed.

again most of the birds here in this part of the globe go as far as only being "not-fearful" of a human hand and are considered somewhat tame.
so i am taking in a bird that is only gonna not be afraid of a hand and not scream when a human comes near it.

That's where i am at this point.

I wish someone would take it from this point and tell me precisely the steps to do one trick. hopefully I'll understand it and then make the bird do something useful.

 

[getwozzy]

The key point is finding something that motivates your bird to comply; whether they are food motivated or motivated by other means- such as verbal praise. Each bird is different, but most are food-motivated; which in that case you would find whatever treat they will work for....my galah works for pine nuts.

Sometimes it can take multiple sessions for them to "get it", but usually with the help of positive reinforcement via treats or praise they will "understand" what you're asking....and sometimes whatever you're trying to teach them will require "chaining" smaller steps to achieve a more "difficult" trick.

 

[getwozzy]

For example- when I taught my galah to fly to my arm....

I start with my arm out and level, like a perch, but within close range....I show her the treat, tap my arm, she hops over, REWARD, and replace her on the stand. (She's motivated for the treat at this point- doesn't care about my signals).

Every session I increase the distance between her and my arm, but doing everything else the same. After the first couple sessions, she understands what I want her to do and what she'll get in return. So then I start associating the phrase "chili, come." along with tapping my arm....

So now she knows that when I tap my arm and say "chili, come" she is supposed to fly to my arm. And she does.

 

[cylent]

For example- when I taught my galah to fly to my arm....

I start with my arm out and level, like a perch, but within close range....I show her the treat, tap my arm, she hops over, REWARD, and replace her on the stand. (She's motivated for the treat at this point- doesn't care about my signals).

wow i think you finally said what made my brain "click"

i finally comprehend the meaning now.
and also proving my point.

tell me in how many training sessions or videos teaching you how to click do people say this? !!!NONE!!!

Thats the part of the training people "Dont talk about" but just "do" that I was missing!

The words mean nothing to the bird. Its coming after the food thus flying to your arm!

tell me one more time how to make the bird want the treat so he'll fly to you or do what you want to teach the new trick? for example how would you implement a "spin around"

 

[getwozzy]

You have to find via trial and error what your bird "will do anything for" and then ONLY use that item when training, NEVER any other time or else you will reduce the joy of them getting that SUPER SPECIAL YUMMY TO DIE FOR TREAT

Spin Around
Take treat, hold at or slightly below their eye/beak level...and they will naturally follow the treat- so make them spin in a circle and reward when they complete the circle. Then you could start associating the command "spin", and keep doing sessions until they spin around upon command if you so choose- be it verbal or visual cue....(there HAS to be some kind of cue!)