Ethical Issues

[SilverSage]

Breeders are EVIL!!! No, not really, but I have basically been told that 3 times this week. As a breeder in the past I did my best to be above reproach on the quality of life for all my birds, and as I am about to start again, it is even more important to me than ever before. We are all parrot lovers here and if I had to guess there might even be people here that have loved parrots longer than I have. So I am opening up and asking, what are the biggest ethical issues for YOU when you look at breeding parrots? I am hoping that some of you can come up with deeper, harder questions and challenges than I already have. My love is parrots and my passion is uniting families with the right feathered family member. I am a huge believer that education is key, as well as support and responsibility for unwanted birds that originated in my flock. All input is welcome.

 

[Blueridge]

I'm no expert like you; but lets see... Hmmm.. I guess the biggest thing that I would like to see is that the parents have a good, fulfilling life; other than just to breed and make money for their owners. I know your parrots are happy but that's all that I can think of.

*Squawks and flies away*

 

[SilverSage]

That is one of my main concerns

 

[noblemacaw]

I am impressed when the breeder is involved with conservation. If they are truely breeding to help a species not become instinct, help with dwindling numbers and support the propagation of the species I know they truly care about the parrots and are not into it just for the money.

I also believe the babies should be co-parented and not pulled and incubated as eggs. I understand that this is not always possible especially with delicate species but if they are doing it because of a problem and not just to make the baby "bond better to humans" I am okay with that. I am for the parents raising the chicks for part of the rearing of the baby. A parrot needs to be taught that they are a parrot.

A breeder that is experienced and knowledgeable about the species they raise and have that dedication to the species. For example my RFM breeder has breed these parrots for over 20 years. She has studied them extensionally even traveling to where they live and learned about the cliff dwelling RFM. She reproduces as much as she can their natural habitat (she wants to line the nest boxes with....cliff rock the same rock RFM use in the wild) When the parrots become too old and or become single she makes sure they are never alone and will make sure they have companions and live out their lives very well taken care of. Example is Valentino's grandfather died at the age of 82. His grandmother age 76 was given companionship with another female that was single (she lost her mate to cancer I believe). They enjoy the companionship of each other and are not alone. She does not have any parrots that live alone.

A breeder that is in it for the parrots and not in it to make a dollar is ethical. A breeder that is interested in helping a species not become more endangered and is involved with programs is a good breeder.

A breeder that is always willing to take their babies back for what ever reason no matter the age and take back on the responsibility is a good breeder.

A breeder that is available to you for help, questions, problems no matter how long you have the bird is a good breeder.

A breeder that refuses to sell you a unweaned baby and does not rush the weaning process is a good breeder.

A breeder that is involved with rescue is rare. That is a good breeder.

Over the years I have seen all kinds of breeders. I have learned what is a good responsible ethical breeder vrs the breeders just in it for the money. I am very picky when I choose a breeder. I will say over the years I have noticed it has been harder for me to find a breeder up to my standards. They are still out there but you have to do your homework.

 

[SilverSage]

I love your answer. When I began breeding I was very young and made a lot of mistakes. Now as an adult I am committed to making sure I never make a mistake I could have avoided. I have actually never yet hand raised a bird, but every single baby out of my flock was handled early and very sweet and tame. I raised only small birds whose parents tolerated my interaction with them, and I am still researching different species and which tend to tolerate and which become aggressive with mates and offspring when humans come around too much, though I know to a large extent it depends on the individual birds.

As for conservation, that is a dream of mine, but it is in the future. My operation will be very small for quite a while for several reasons. First of all I feel that my finances are such that smaller is the only option for now, and second but more importantly in many ways, I know that I lack experience. There is no way to get to be experienced without starting inexperienced, and I want to make sure I have a small enough flock that even my newbie eyes have time to observe each bird enough to make sure all is as it should be.

All of my babies will be welcome home with "no objections." I don't say "no questions asked" because asking questions is important to knowing the history of the bird and can help avoid problems or heal them faster. I would like to offer a full refund if the bird is returned within a certain amount of time, and a partial refund that gets smaller the longer you have the bird or something like that. Also, if a bird is a good candidate for a new home, I would like to be able to buy back birds rather than just accepting them in surrenders, because I would rather the bird came back to me than ended up on Craigslist. I am still debating those numbers though, since quarantine will be necessary for any returnees. Any suggestions? I feel that I would like similar policies for birds that did not originate with me - I do not believe that breeders and rescues should stand in opposing corners, but instead should work together.

I really appreciate all your feedback!

 

[noblemacaw]

What about getting a mentor to help get you though the Newbie stage? I think having a support system will only benefit you but also help you from making mistakes that could be avoided with mentoring.

Only you know how much you can take on and being responsible about it is a good start. Do it for the love of the species not to put more pets out there in a already flooded market for particular species.

One small breeder I admire goes by the name Crimson on this form. She is from Canada and breeds small birds like Finch, Cockatiels and small conures. Even though she has a family and the breeding is a small business she does it because she loves her birds and is a dedicated ethical breeder. If she is willing she would make a wonderful mentor.

 

[SilverSage]

There is a woman I have as a sort of mentor, in fact I am getting my first (and only for quite a while) breeding pair from her. She is retiring and selling her land, but she will be in GA which is a long way from Hawaii where I will be living. I contacted Crimson, I really appreciate the suggestion!

 

[MonicaMc]

Some other things..... parent species are in as large of possible cages that can be allowed. Hens are flighted and have enough room to fly so that they don't become overweight/have egg laying problems.

Parents are fed a healthy diet and have environmental stimulation. (doesn't have to be toys, but more than one or two perches in a cage! foraging activities!)

Not hybridizing species, and if possible, avoiding subspecies hybrids.

If hybrids are desired, breeding two species together that will result in *healthy* hybrid offspring without any birth defects and they are *clearly* hybrids (i.e. *NO* sun x jenday or jenday x gold cap or green cheek x maroon bellied or green cheek x black cap or any red head conure hybrids!). Nothing bothers me more than hybrid offspring that are easily mistaken as pure species and could end up back in the pure species gene pool - if there is one...

 

[Echo]

Parents are fed a healthy diet and have environmental stimulation. (doesn't have to be toys, but more than one or two perches in a cage! foraging activities!)

Nothing wrong with toys. Mine have lots of toys in their flight cage. They really play with them when they have no babies and the box is off, but I still keep them in the cage. Even if the parents don't play with them, the babies love them once they fledge!!

 

[Birdman666]

No!

Poaching wild birds is evil!

Breeders are the solution to that problem, and good breeders know how to socialize their baby's so that they make well adjusted and safe pets...

But then there are a number of folks that call me evil for having birds in the first place... "They shouldn't be pets!"

Fine... if you feel that way, don't get one. Mine seem pretty happy...

 

[forbey]

My biggest concern with breeders of any species is the same as people who become pet owners who fail to do their homework before jumping. As an equine science major in college and a certified farrier (horseshoing blacksmith) I've seen many horse owners who had no business owning cats never mind horses.

Parrots, big and small are no different. As an owner, you have to make a commitment to your fid. Time, nutrition, training, health, safety, etc. In this forum we can find many stories about the lone parrot found sitting in a dark and dirty room or in a cage in the back yard only to be forgotten by their care taker.

Being a breeder (and those of you who are breeders can vouch for this) requires an exponentially greater commitment. Not only do you have to be committed to the physical needs, but you also have to commit to the added stresses of breeding on the birds. Greater complications that can arise from the breeding process. Bigger messes. But you also have to commit to taking baby birds and "converting" them to a "product" that will be suitable for purchase as a pet, as well as screening and pre-training potential buyers to make sure the birds are cared for and loved after they leave your facility.

All that being said, the biggest problem I see in the bird breeding world are those who kinda / sorta became bird owners. Then they kinda / sorta added more birds to their nest. Then they kinda / sorta decided, maybe they could make a buck or two breeding their birds. All of this done wthout sufficient education, training, financial and personal committment to the birds, first and foremost; but, also to the industry they just entered.

I believe a great deal of the problem breeders came from this semi- prepared, semi-lazy group of people who then tarnish the image of the breeders out their trying to do it right.

(As he climbs down off his soap box!)

 

[SilverSage]

Honestly I have never clipped my breeders in the past. I don't see the point in clipping any bird unless it is going to be handled regularly and the situation demands it for some reason. In fact, I am one of those who feels that the situation RARELY demands that birds be clipped, and prefer all my pets to have their full movement potential. And while my breeders will not necessarily be tame, they are still pets and need not only the commitment of a pet, but an additional commitment because their jobs require more of them than pets.

As for toys etc, I have always provided my breeders with toys, veggies in new places every day, different kinds of music, etc. The only time I have had problems was when the toys had mirrors, so that was an easy fix. I am glad someone spoke up about that! And Diet, right now they are on ZuPreem Fruit Blend, I plan to switch them to Zupreem AvianBreeder Natural Diet with a heavy addition of veggies and fruits. We eat a LOT of produce in this house anyway!

Hybrids! I am still researching those, trying not to have a knee jerk reaction, but failing. I know they can be sweet, but it seems like a bad thing for me. As of right now my policy is "no, never." If in 40 or 50 years when we have hybrids who have proven themselves just as healthy and happy I MIGHT reconsider, but I have an additional problem besides the risk of unhealthy individuals, and that is our American parrot gene pool. Since 1992, we can no longer import most species, meaning what we have is all we have! A rancher friend of mine was having a conversation with another friend who was talking about the benefits of breeding Black Angus cattle with Hereford cattle. Now, these are BREEDS, not SPECIES, so there is no ethical issue in my mind, but the rancher pointed out that is was a time of drought, and the herd was down to just the foundation stock. How could he consider polluting the foundation of his purebred herd? So while some aspects of hybridization are still unclear to me, I am uncomfortable with the idea of "polluting the gene pool."

And I agree, I would rather see pets raised as pets instead of hatched and raised wild and then ripped from the skies. I also see breeders as a good resource for conservation not only to prevent poaching, but also to repopulate areas, though there is a lot more than breeding involved in that process. Someday I hope to have the knowledge and resources to get involved in rare and endangered species!

 

[SilverSage]

Forbey, the breeders you are talking about are the same as how I was as a teen. I mean, I did it with all my heart, but I failed to do the necessary research and seek out the right people to hold me accountable. My biggest failings were in nutrition and owner education and screening. Needless to say, those are huge priorities for me right now. The guilt I feel over those failures is the driving force behind me opening this topic for all of your input; If I miss something in the early stages, maybe someone will bring it up, just as someone did the other day (not on my thread) about socializing babies with other species of parrots. Somehow in my thoughts about socializing with humans and other pets, I managed not to realize how important it is to socialize with other birds, especially since as we all know, birds are like potato chips; you can't have just one! Ok ok, you can, but it takes a lot of self control!!

 

[Birdman666]

And I agree, I would rather see pets raised as pets instead of hatched and raised wild and then ripped from the skies. I also see breeders as a good resource for conservation not only to prevent poaching, but also to repopulate areas, though there is a lot more than breeding involved in that process. Someday I hope to have the knowledge and resources to get involved in rare and endangered species!

There are about 350-400 each of the wild RFM, and BTM's left in their native habitat in Bolivia, and we lost several thousand wild ones to loss of habitat in the space of 10 years.

There are approximately 2000 of these guys that have been captive bred in the US alone... So, basically, we are the only hope for these guys.

There are probably as many Hys in the US as there are in the wild as well...

There is a breeder in Quatar who has about 50 pair of Spix macaws... He refused to give them back to the Brazillian Government, and he was right. The Brazillians managed to kill their captive breeding stock! And the wild ones were wiped out years ago.

BP2's are another one...

So, no, I don't believe it is evil. Some of these species won't survive without it. Many of them are the ones I am fondest of...

 

[MonicaMc]

Nothing wrong with toys. Mine have lots of toys in their flight cage. They really play with them when they have no babies and the box is off, but I still keep them in the cage. Even if the parents don't play with them, the babies love them once they fledge!!

Didn't say toys are bad, but I know many breeders prescribe to the theory that breeder birds do not need toys. Toys distract them from breeding.

I also know there are some great breeders out there that provide toys and enrichment to their parrots and the birds breed just fine!!!

The main point is, is that the parents need to be taken care of well. They have brains and need things to do other than breeding. It *doesn't* have to be bird toys, but foraging activities and plants can still be a way to help enrich their lives.

Hybrids! I am still researching those, trying not to have a knee jerk reaction, but failing. I know they can be sweet, but it seems like a bad thing for me. As of right now my policy is "no, never." If in 40 or 50 years when we have hybrids who have proven themselves just as healthy and happy I MIGHT reconsider, but I have an additional problem besides the risk of unhealthy individuals, and that is our American parrot gene pool. Since 1992, we can no longer import most species, meaning what we have is all we have!

I really don't recommend mirrors anyway... not for single pets and not for multiple birds. Not a fan of dyes, either!

To go further into the hybrid area.... green cheek conures, senegal parrots, meyers, eclectus, sulphur crested cockatoos, red headed conures and many amazons are hybrids. If not species hybrids, then subspecies!

Unless you breed species that can't hybridize, or breed species that it wouldn't be hard to mistake a hybrid for a pure, it may be difficult to avoid hybrids altogether. This may be something you'll end up facing when looking to purchase breeding pairs.


Here's an example... this ad was posted selling a pair of jendays. The bird on left appears to be a sun x gold cap hybrid with the amount of green in the chest area. The bird on right appears to be a jenday with some sun traits leaking through. In other words, both birds may be hybrids and they are being sold as jendays.

Conure Pair For Sale in Hillsboro, Ohio - Hoobly Classifieds


Or this photo. Bird on left is a cherry head, bird on right is a mitred or mitred hybrid. The two birds are different sizes and have a different amount of red coloration. Even the amount of black on the flights is different.... yet, this breeder seems to imply that they are the same species when they aren't.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=316650635112965



So whatever species you plan on breeding, please make sure you learn enough about that species, or subspecies, to tell it apart from similar looking species/subspecies and hybrids.