How do I go about finding an ethical breeder etc?

[buurd]

It is not necessary that they are being shady as it might seem. Most private breeders hide info as there are people that will steal a expensive bird at any cost. I even heard of some breeders get rob at gun point, or people wait till they leave sit in front of home for days and then break in with a couple of other people and steal the birds, they even do this at stores. It a huge issue for them. Especially on Craigslist and Facebook being the biggest targets. The other main issue is that people will also steal the actual listing as well and etc and use the address as well to scam other people. So yes privacy is a big deal for them and taken seriously to protect themselves and their birds. It sad that what it come to, but they pretty much have to.

Your best bet is talk over the phone and ask questions related to the bird and test knowledge and then show interest and then they will give you address if they think your serious and meetup with you. Yes their are some good professional breeders that care for their birds well, but you do have to put personal feeling aside if you buying a bird as they all pretty much do it for profit. Rare to find someone that breed bird for hobby, or by accident. If your not ok with that then a rescue is only option, as even people re-homing birds are mostly bird flippers that know how to reword listing, so they won't get flagged.

NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER buy from someone that ships a bird. 95% of them are scammers to try to steal deposits and use stolen info, so when you look them up they come up as legit with good feedback rating.

It may not be as rare anymore that rescues get grasskeets, now, I guess. I just saw that one rescue brought in a few of them from a hoarder situation, a while months back. It could have been a one-off, or maybe people are buying more grasskeets. They're all gone now, unfortunately.

Also unfortunate is I think my guy is getting depressed again. Im playing him the bird clips but its winter here and theres been no sun for a few days. He likes to sit in the sun, but isnt coming out for cloudy weather, and he started singing to himself in a nonstop way from time to time again. I think he really misses having another bird around, badly. If its sunny, starlings will fly and sun outside on a tree near the window in the midmorn. Other than that, all you hear is an occasional crow or hawk or goose in the distance, infrequently. I never noticed this lack of bird calls in winter, until I had to, just recently. I usually get a cardinal couple in the tree every year, but they arent around this year.

Im home with him 4-5 days a week, so he's not alone days on end. And I mean, Im in the same room as him, nearly the entire time. I think he may have figured out that the clips of birds I play for him are fake calls.

I think youre talking about people who own or breed the expensive big parrots, which are worth thousands, so it makes sense that they get stolen. Expensive dogs get stolen a lot more often. Hell, inexpensive dogs get stolen all day, every day, everywhere, from yards and houses of people who are not even breeding them.

Im not sure what that has to do with anything Im talking about though. If youre breeding animals including birds for profit, then you need to be transparent. The potential 'buyer' doesnt owe you your safety. If that is the endeavor you pursue, it is up to you to make sure your birds are safe from plunder or harm.

If I just owned a large parrot, Id be extra worried and cautious too, because I realize they are targets of theft. Im not talking about breeders who breed large expensive or rare birds. Im talking about Bourkes & splendids grasskeets. They arent expensive and from what I can see they re usually with other smaller parrots like cockatiels and finches or canaries.

I dont even know how shipping birds is not considered inhumane. That is what concerns me more than it being a scam. There are the same national bird farms advertising everywhere I plug bourkes into a search engine. They are legit businesses who do the majority of their business through shipping. I do not know how that can possibly safe or humane. The poor birds must be traumatised by it, for one thing.

My concern was really more over how to make an ethical adoption. The two bourkes I wound up with were birds that a small in-home breeder was all but throwing out because she said they didnt lay eggs. My dogs and the one other pet I had were all adoptions of animals going to be chucked out or euthanized. Knowing how many bird owners give up on their birds or are forced to by circumstance, I thought maybe I could adopt from a situation like that. But I never see bourkes or splendids up for rehoming locally. Its always larger more popular birds, like 'tiels and conures, and of course budgies.

 

[buurd]

Seeing the birds and setup is not shady, and privacy is taken very seriously among breeders, and if not taken seriously it will and I mean WILL land you in trouble. In breeders groups, bad names stick like mud. And, for your information, breeders sell their birds in order to get cash so they can keep feeding their birds, they can't just pull their money straight of their cloaca, they need the money to keep their birds well cared for. If your in a breeders group you would understand better, if every breeder was so transparent, the whole bird breeding community would be a whole lot worse, privacy of all breeders should not be a point of argument, it is their choice to protect their birds

Youre not making any sense because you are not talking about what actually makes being so secretive valid for people breeding birds.

If it's theft of your birds youre worried about, then that is no excuse. Running a business out of your home is a choice you make. The type of business is also a choice you make. If breeding and selling birds makes you at a higher risk of theft of your bird or the cash you pocket from selling them, then you deal with it on your own, to secure or insure your birds or money. That has nothing to do with the potential 'buyer.'

You are breeding and selling live, sentient beings, and that comes with responsibilities to the community, buyers and above all the birds themselves. And in that case, you need to be transparent to how you are breeding, raising and treating them. I know there is animal welfare in Australia, just like there is in America, and they exist for a good reason. Are you really going to make it seem like the vast majority of people breeding birds for profit are legit wonderful? We both know that they arent.

And any breeder of any kind that is breeding dozens of animals is working a cash farm. They do it for the money. They are making profit from it or they wouldnt be doing it.

Every once in a while you see an animal breeder who is doing it to improve the breed. Eg, a dog breeder who breeds out genetic problems by buying certified healthy animals . They can go back 7+ generations and present the certification of each dog, and you can see how the genetic issues weaken in each successive generation. I dont know of anything like that happening with birds. I may be ignorant of it, though. And dog & horse breeders, etc, spend money to attend dog shows, to pay to certify the dogs, for testing and to include them in shows, etc. Im not justifying their lives, Im saying that you can actually see the expense, that in turn goes into the price tag on the dog or horse. And even those wonderful breeders 'doing it for the breed' are cutting corners to maximize profits by feeding their dogs cheap, toxic chow, etc. Dont even try to tell me that bird breeders are not doing that, also.

'Selling your birds to take care of your birds' is a hogwash argument. And this is what I mean when I talk about ethics. If youre selling birds to take care of all the birds you are breeding, then the sum would be zero, and it is not, or you wouldnt do it. Because to sell birds for cash, you have to suspend your conscience that you are handing all those innocent birds over to people that you havent even vetted. If you dont care about who or where they are going to , then you are doing it strictly for the cash, and when it comes to animals as the 'product', that is considered unethical. Just looking at craiglist and hoobly posts has convinced me that many people know that breeding birds and reptiles is a very low overhead, high profit way to make money.

If every breeder was so transparent, the whole bird breeding community would be a whole lot worse, privacy of all breeders should not be a point of argument, it is their choice to protect their birds

You really have not explained specifically what is so important that it cannot seemingly even be spoken of.

 

[buurd]

This is what I am trying to say all along
I know so many people who have had their birds stolen, and people who steal their birds don't even know how to care for them, and that is how we loose species in aviculture
I keep 2 of the rarest species of finches, soon to be 3 species, that are in Australia. I never let random people come on my property to see the birds, I meet people at half way between my place and theirs, unless I genuinely know them. Breeders already get a bad wrap from the government, and the rights activists, and the whole lot of us are fed up with this &@?$. Private breeders are the ones that save species from extinction, because we rewrite the care, management and breeding records and we get better results than the zoos. You can't do a course or get a certificate in bird keeping, it is something learned overtime through other breeders and things you find out in your own time.
In the local bird club, there is a person that comes and tries to inspect all our aviaries and everyone hates and I mean HATES him, because he is such as stuck up pain that asks too many personal questions and always invades people's privacy, do you want to be known like that?
Also, I have had birds shipped from all over the place. I got birds from Tasmania, and Western Australia and I am in Queensland without any trouble. Once you get to know a legitimate breeder, they are the best people you can meet.

Please stop trying to alter breeders privacy and giving them a bad wrap. Remember, bad names stick like mud

Thanks
Noah Till

Im not giving breeders "a bad wrap[sic]." Im asking legitimate questions and making valid points. You, on the other hand, are speaking cryptically and voicing threats about anyone asking questions of how bird breeders operate in the shadows.

I know of one case that may or not be true of a private zookeeper, basically, not handing over some now thought to be extinct parrots from south america. His smuggling them out of there no doubt was part of why they are extinct now in their home country. I dont know of any other case of bird breeders saving a bird from extinction. I think you are very generous in transferring the mantle of hero to bird breeders.

And yes, people actually go to school to take care of birds under threat of extinction. And yes, they draw on many years of experience from the people they work with and those that mentor them. If you leave animals in peril of extinction up to the care of for-profit breeders instead of the professionals, it seems plainly that that is asking for disaster. The orange bellied grass parrot is near extinction. They not only try to manage and grow the species in the wild, but they have certified bird owners raising and breeding them all over Australia. So they do hedge their bets, that way. If someone is not certified to handle the species, though, it is for a good reason, I am guessing. Can you think of any reasons why they would not certify a private bird owner to take care of and breed endangered birds?

Species are lost mainly due to human preference for cash profit over the wildlife, not through the incompetence of people who are educated to preserve them.

I also am at a loss of what to think about someone insisting on their absolute privacy in how they breed and raise birds in their bird-selling business, but who is also using their full name and location in their posts...?
Im assuming that like in the US, Australia imposes fines and maybe even jail time, when someone knowingly breaks their laws on protected wildlife. You cant keep or even help common protected wildlife in the US like a crow or a squirrel without the law coming for you, but you said you have 3 types of endangered finches?
How doesnt you keeping those birds endanger the rest of the birds you have?
Im trying to make sense of this; I really am. But it makes no sense.

 

[buurd]

Ok I just saw another post of yours, and you are 15 yrs old. I was wondering why you were going on about your 'reputation'... I thought you were just being colorful, lol But of course a 15 yr old would be more concerned about his rep, than anything else...
Listen kid, you will come to learn that your personal ethics are what matter, and your rep, not so much. It's ethics that allow you to sleep at night; not what others think of you.

Frankly, I think those other breeders in your club are filling your head with bullsiht and impotent threats to keep you in line. Hopefully you'll figure it out on your own, in time. Ciao.

 

[LaManuka]

I have no wish to embroil myself in this debate between you and Noah, except to say that his aviaries probably the most beautifully and immaculately kept that I have ever seen! I know Noah from his taking of my quaker, ScoMo, whom I most regrettably had to rehome following an emotional breakdown I had last year after having lost my green cheek conure, and I most certainly would not have left him there if I was not absolutely certain that he would be well cared for - certainly a whole lot better than I was capable of! As for his age, Noah already knows more about successfully caring for and raising birds than most people several times his age. And we all had to start somewhere did we not? My avian vet was himself a passionate child aviculturalist who has become, forty-some-odd years later, one of the top bird vets in Australia, and is known and highly respected around the world. I found Noah to be of exemplary character and integrity and I cannot and will not sit by and watch anyone diss him!

As for those "other" types of hugely disreputable breeders, oh yes we have plenty of those in this country unfortunately. The one I got my Lilly Pilly from is a case in point, I have written about him in another post and will copy what I wrote here...

"I haven’t written anything before about the breeder i got her from, but the conditions in his “aviaries” (and I use that term in it’s loosest possible sense!) were so shocking that I almost walked away in disgust. I don’t know how many birds this guy had but it was way too many, and all jammed into tiny, rusty cages covered in filth that had clearly not been cleaned in years. The place was alive with flies and cockroaches, and my God, the smell! Every fibre of my being just wanted to get the he!! out of there!

And then he brought my little Lilly out to me, and although I was certain she must be diseased from those conditions I couldn’t leave her behind. She was what he called a “spare” hen and I feared what her fate might be if i didn’t take her. We would have taken all of them if we could have. We took Lilly to the vet where we were surprised to learn she is completely healthy - don’t ask me how!

The breeder said apparently they’d been “inspected” several times by various government agencies and, incredibly, allowed to continue operating! Either the inspectors were blind or the only thing they were concerned about was that the breeder had paid his license fees! I seriously considered reporting him myself but I’ve noticed lately that the business name has disappeared so he may have been closed down. If so it concerns me what happened to all those poor birds but I fear it would be too upsetting to know..."

Buurd I respect you and your wish to not perpetuate the existence of people like Lilly's breeder, but in many ways we are almost all guilty of it in some way. I wonder if the day is approaching where people will no longer be permitted to keep other sentient beings as "pets" for their own pleasure. I get a huge attack of the guilts every single time I leave my house and have to lock my guys up in their (huge!) cages for a few hours for their own safety, when others of their kind are flying free as nature intended. But please, save your barbs for those who deserve them, because Noah most definitely does not.

 

[Noahs_Birds]

Ok I just saw another post of yours, and you are 15 yrs old. I was wondering why you were going on about your 'reputation'... I thought you were just being colorful, lol But of course a 15 yr old would be more concerned about his rep, than anything else...
Listen kid, you will come to learn that your personal ethics are what matter, and your rep, not so much. It's ethics that allow you to sleep at night; not what others think of you.

Frankly, I think those other breeders in your club are filling your head with bullsiht and impotent threats to keep you in line. Hopefully you'll figure it out on your own, in time. Ciao.

Reputation sticks like mud lady, don't ever testify that. In fact, those 'bullsiht breeders' you are talking about have more years experience with birdkeeping and privacy than you have been on this earth.
It is yourself not making sense, myself and Parrotgenie have provided the straight facts on breeders privacy, in fact, it is YOUR personal ethics are in the way of the facts, YOU are the one testifying them, I am telling you right now, if you go to any club in Australia, you WILL be told off
Your so called valid points are the exact same thing as one of those bloody activists would say.
Stop trying to denote me as a 15 year old lady, I have kept and bred more of the rarer species than you have had hot meals. Here's a point, How many avicultural associations are you a part of?, Have you had experience with rarer species?, Have you ever had the risk of people coming onto your property after your birds?
Don't think so

In regards for breeders making cash from their birds, all us true. I sell my bred birds for cash, that helps pay for seed and other needs, stop being negative in regards to this aspect, breeders are genuine people and all your saying is that they are not


Myself and Parrotgenie have made our valid points, it's your time to interpret them and accept the fact that we are not in a perfect world, and breeders privacy is valued more than yourself being a member on this forum, not trying to sound all gruff and ruff, it's just that all the points are true and there is no need for argument

Thanks
Noah Till

 

[HannahandSunny]

Hmm.
Sadly this post has gone way off topic.
I too am interested in finding an ethical, kind breeder. Unfortunately there are lots of back yard breeders where the birds are kept in unimaginable awful conditions. And that I do not want to support. Even if they do have more bird experience than me..
I’d only support a humane and caring small time breeder even if they had a little less experience than the others.
There is good and bad of everything in the world. Of course they can’t all be painted with the same brush. Which I recon is why the OP is asking, how does your everyday person track down a decent breeder from the hundreds of bad ones?

 

[FloridaParrotLover]

not sure where your located, but here in Florida I did a search for "bird shows" and "bird expo" and I came up with a list of shows and expos plus a list of breeders...
also the show and expo will also have a list of all Breeders who will be there displaying there birds. :27:

Thanks but I read on here that you should never go to those shows or buy from them, as the birds are all exposed to potentially infectious birds. And that you can bring home disease by just walking through them.

Along those lines, I also learned on here that anyone breeding birds will not let you tour where they keep their birds, because you can potentially bring in disease from other birds. I get that. That is understandable. I still think if you have a set up, then it should be visible to potential adopters behind glass or something, though.

I think you misunderstood me, there will be local breeder there. and that is what you were asking to find right.

 

[Tami2]

Okay guys, let's tone it down, less emotion and more factual content, please.
Let's agree to disagree and get back on topic.
Name calling and mudslining is never helpful in a debate. You can make your point with class and your argument will be more valid.

The question is how to find an ethical breeder, that's it. People's definition of what is indeed ethical may vary.

Please remember to be kind to one another, we are all here for the benefit of our birds. If your opinion differs so much, that you get angry, simmer down before responding or better yet, don't respond at all.

 

[ParrotGenie]

Seeing the birds and setup is not shady, and privacy is taken very seriously among breeders, and if not taken seriously it will and I mean WILL land you in trouble. In breeders groups, bad names stick like mud. And, for your information, breeders sell their birds in order to get cash so they can keep feeding their birds, they can't just pull their money straight of their cloaca, they need the money to keep their birds well cared for. If your in a breeders group you would understand better, if every breeder was so transparent, the whole bird breeding community would be a whole lot worse, privacy of all breeders should not be a point of argument, it is their choice to protect their birds

Youre not making any sense because you are not talking about what actually makes being so secretive valid for people breeding birds.

If it's theft of your birds youre worried about, then that is no excuse. Running a business out of your home is a choice you make. The type of business is also a choice you make. If breeding and selling birds makes you at a higher risk of theft of your bird or the cash you pocket from selling them, then you deal with it on your own, to secure or insure your birds or money. That has nothing to do with the potential 'buyer.'

You are breeding and selling live, sentient beings, and that comes with responsibilities to the community, buyers and above all the birds themselves. And in that case, you need to be transparent to how you are breeding, raising and treating them. I know there is animal welfare in Australia, just like there is in America, and they exist for a good reason. Are you really going to make it seem like the vast majority of people breeding birds for profit are legit wonderful? We both know that they arent.

And any breeder of any kind that is breeding dozens of animals is working a cash farm. They do it for the money. They are making profit from it or they wouldnt be doing it.

Every once in a while you see an animal breeder who is doing it to improve the breed. Eg, a dog breeder who breeds out genetic problems by buying certified healthy animals . They can go back 7+ generations and present the certification of each dog, and you can see how the genetic issues weaken in each successive generation. I dont know of anything like that happening with birds. I may be ignorant of it, though. And dog & horse breeders, etc, spend money to attend dog shows, to pay to certify the dogs, for testing and to include them in shows, etc. Im not justifying their lives, Im saying that you can actually see the expense, that in turn goes into the price tag on the dog or horse. And even those wonderful breeders 'doing it for the breed' are cutting corners to maximize profits by feeding their dogs cheap, toxic chow, etc. Dont even try to tell me that bird breeders are not doing that, also.

'Selling your birds to take care of your birds' is a hogwash argument. And this is what I mean when I talk about ethics. If youre selling birds to take care of all the birds you are breeding, then the sum would be zero, and it is not, or you wouldnt do it. Because to sell birds for cash, you have to suspend your conscience that you are handing all those innocent birds over to people that you havent even vetted. If you dont care about who or where they are going to , then you are doing it strictly for the cash, and when it comes to animals as the 'product', that is considered unethical. Just looking at craiglist and hoobly posts has convinced me that many people know that breeding birds and reptiles is a very low overhead, high profit way to make money.

If every breeder was so transparent, the whole bird breeding community would be a whole lot worse, privacy of all breeders should not be a point of argument, it is their choice to protect their birds

You really have not explained specifically what is so important that it cannot seemingly even be spoken of.

I hate to say it, but your mind clearly set and going about it completely the wrong way. Two topics that sure never be discuss on a public forum is religion and politics and for a very good reason as you will have threads like this. You have your mind set and being narrow minded about it. Worked with wildlife and parrots since young and professionally as well as hold several licenses to, as only way in the states you can work with Bird of Prey. So have tons of experience with several organizations and certified and non certified breeders and zookeepers.

Yes I do believe parrots sure have never been bought into captivity and kept in the wild, they are way to intelligent and very social creatures, pretty much the level of a primate. Unfortunately they were way before we were even around unfortunately. Hence why I always advocate people adopt then buy as a surplus of birds that need a good home. Yes you are correct on in some cases that some species are lost due to human preference for cash profit over the wildlife, hence reason they have very strict importing laws they do now, but that a whole another matter and completely different topic on it's own and can write a book on that one?

I also know some very good for-profit breeders that actually have more experience then some of the professionals I worked with and when to schooling and whole nine yards and take very good care of their birds and only sell to those that are capable of providing a good home for the bird. So to class all "For Profit Breeders" and spew hatred towards them claiming they are all bad evil people with bad intentions is being very ignorant. To be honest I take the lesser of the two evils and prefer breeders over people taking a bird from the wild and bringing them in illegally taking them from their homes and "flock members" families in the wild, that what causing the near extinction of a lot of species. Your not going to stop breeding as it about supply and demand in the end of the day, it is like claiming you be able to resolve the drug war overnight, as you can see how well that when? I rather spend time educating people that need help, then bashing them, or trying to stop one of the oldest profession. I not going to go any further as this thread would be several pages long if I did and would completely derail it. You need to open up you mind a little bit and quit being one sided about it, to gain knowledge and to have a better understanding.

The topic is way off course, it wasn't about why breeders bred birds for profit and for you to pretty much attack and push your believes on them. Your are in the wrong and especially since you were considering buying a bird, then adopting? This thread was suppose to be about why they choose to hide their personal details and seem secretive and seem shady about it and that question was answered fairly accurately. Your are wrong about that and a much better way to go about things. BTW it not just large expensive birds that are at risk for thief, smaller birds as well get stolen all the time as a way more easier flip and means quick drugs money for some and even then people committing the theft may think you have larger parrots as well, so good reason to hide info from the general public. Of course people fail to realize some of the more professional thieves can use the photo to get GPS coordinates, if they have location enable on their smartphone while taking pictures,

 

[ParrotGenie]

Okay guys, let's tone it down, less emotion and more factual content, please.
Let's agree to disagree and get back on topic.
Name calling and mudslining is never helpful in a debate. You can make your point with class and your argument will be more valid.

The question is how to find an ethical breeder, that's it. People's definition of what is indeed ethical may vary.

Please remember to be kind to one another, we are all here for the benefit of our birds. If your opinion differs so much, that you get angry, simmer down before responding or better yet, don't respond at all.

Yes this I fully agree with and point I was hoping to get across earlier.

 

[Terry57]

Despite Tami's excellent attempt to get this thread back on track, it veered way off course again.
That post has been deleted and the thread is now closed.