I need everyone's advice

[Sulphiria]

I personally dont think putting them in their cage as punishment is a good idea because you are just creating a whole new problem of them associating the cage with punishment, causing more problems. The best thing you can do is put them on the floor and walk away and ignore them for 2-3 minutes. That seems to be what works best across the board for everyone from what ive seen.

 

[ZoeS]

I personally dont think putting them in their cage as punishment is a good idea because you are just creating a whole new problem of them associating the cage with punishment, causing more problems. The best thing you can do is put them on the floor and walk away and ignore them for 2-3 minutes. That seems to be what works best across the board for everyone from what ive seen.

If the bird is associating the cage with a punishment, you (not you specifically) are either doing it wrong or the cage needs to be more interesting for them. It's NOT meant to be as a punishment, it's meant to change their frame of mind and give them something else to think about for a bit (eating, drinking, preening, playing with toys). It calms them down. It's sort of like blowing on them when they bite. It doesn't hurt them at all, they just go "wtf was that" and then have forgotten about biting.

I would be too afraid to leave them on the floor because I have cats, but also they could get underfoot, fly to you if not clipped, get under a couch or in a vent or something. When I put my bird down where she doesn't want to be, she just looks at me and bobs (she is still moulting out her clipped flights) which is so sad and I can't resist going to get her. When I put her in her cage for any reason (leaving for work, about to use the oven, because she is biting or cranky), she goes and does something in her cage like eat or preen.

If the floor is working for you then by all means... but I don't think putting a bird in a cage is punishment unless you make it so by your attitude (e.g., saying or thinking: "fine, you want to bite me, then you have to sit in your cage for ten minutes!") or by the nature of the cage (if it has no toys or food).

 

[luvmytooo]

Never thought about putting them on the floor. That's a great idea.
I'm glad I havent had the need to do any of this "yet" .
I have no experience addressing this type of issue , so I appreciate the advice greatly.
I just thought putting the back in their cage would be considered a time out .
And taking away what they would want most , interaction.

 

[ZoeS]

I just thought putting the back in their cage would be considered a time out .
And taking away what they would want most , interaction.

Well, she's always happy to come back out of her cage after, but I don't leave her there for very long, just until she starts looking like she wants to come out again (and is calm). 5-15 mins, maybe?

I mean, I put her in her cage every day when I leave for work, and in her sleep cage every night before bed, but that's not considered punishment.

 

[luvmytooo]

I just thought putting the back in their cage would be considered a time out .
And taking away what they would want most , interaction.

Well, she's always happy to come back out of her cage after, but I don't leave her there for very long, just until she starts looking like she wants to come out again (and is calm). 5-15 mins, maybe?

I mean, I put her in her cage every day when I leave for work, and in her sleep cage every night before bed, but that's not considered punishment.

I was agreeing with you , lolol. I'm just a little confused on WHY it would be a bad idea to put him back in the cage if he bites , like a time out.
Even though their cage is their home , they still crave our attention and want to interact with us , so you take that away when you put them back in. I just don't see why it wouldnt be a good idea ?
I guess I should have directed my question to Sulphiria

 

[Sulphiria]

I personally dont think putting them in their cage as punishment is a good idea because you are just creating a whole new problem of them associating the cage with punishment, causing more problems. The best thing you can do is put them on the floor and walk away and ignore them for 2-3 minutes. That seems to be what works best across the board for everyone from what ive seen.

If the bird is associating the cage with a punishment, you (not you specifically) are either doing it wrong or the cage needs to be more interesting for them. It's NOT meant to be as a punishment, it's meant to change their frame of mind and give them something else to think about for a bit (eating, drinking, preening, playing with toys). It calms them down. It's sort of like blowing on them when they bite. It doesn't hurt them at all, they just go "wtf was that" and then have forgotten about biting.

I would be too afraid to leave them on the floor because I have cats, but also they could get underfoot, fly to you if not clipped, get under a couch or in a vent or something. When I put my bird down where she doesn't want to be, she just looks at me and bobs (she is still moulting out her clipped flights) which is so sad and I can't resist going to get her. When I put her in her cage for any reason (leaving for work, about to use the oven, because she is biting or cranky), she goes and does something in her cage like eat or preen.

If the floor is working for you then by all means... but I don't think putting a bird in a cage is punishment unless you make it so by your attitude (e.g., saying or thinking: "fine, you want to bite me, then you have to sit in your cage for ten minutes!") or by the nature of the cage (if it has no toys or food).

Sounds to me like you have taught your bird when she wants to go to her cage to play with her toys and doesnt want to interact, she just has to bite. Another of the problems that can be created from using a cage as time out. Just because its not *meant* to be a time out doesnt mean the bird sees it that way. Think of a 2 year old. If a 2 year old had a really nice room, plenty of toys and was put in their room for punishment, only to sit for 10 minutes playing with toys, how is that a punishment? If they dont know they did something wrong, then theres no consequences for their negative behavior, thus why most childrens time outs are given in a place away from toys and rewards.

Im not saying put the bird on the floor and go make dinner. And for some, putting a bird on the floor and walking away isnt an option, nor something they want to do. It's simply my opinion and suggestion.

 

[luvmytooo]

I personally dont think putting them in their cage as punishment is a good idea because you are just creating a whole new problem of them associating the cage with punishment, causing more problems. The best thing you can do is put them on the floor and walk away and ignore them for 2-3 minutes. That seems to be what works best across the board for everyone from what ive seen.

If the bird is associating the cage with a punishment, you (not you specifically) are either doing it wrong or the cage needs to be more interesting for them. It's NOT meant to be as a punishment, it's meant to change their frame of mind and give them something else to think about for a bit (eating, drinking, preening, playing with toys). It calms them down. It's sort of like blowing on them when they bite. It doesn't hurt them at all, they just go "wtf was that" and then have forgotten about biting.

I would be too afraid to leave them on the floor because I have cats, but also they could get underfoot, fly to you if not clipped, get under a couch or in a vent or something. When I put my bird down where she doesn't want to be, she just looks at me and bobs (she is still moulting out her clipped flights) which is so sad and I can't resist going to get her. When I put her in her cage for any reason (leaving for work, about to use the oven, because she is biting or cranky), she goes and does something in her cage like eat or preen.

If the floor is working for you then by all means... but I don't think putting a bird in a cage is punishment unless you make it so by your attitude (e.g., saying or thinking: "fine, you want to bite me, then you have to sit in your cage for ten minutes!") or by the nature of the cage (if it has no toys or food).

Sounds to me like you have taught your bird when she wants to go to her cage to play with her toys and doesnt want to interact, she just has to bite. Another of the problems that can be created from using a cage as time out. Just because its not *meant* to be a time out doesnt mean the bird sees it that way. Think of a 2 year old. If a 2 year old had a really nice room, plenty of toys and was put in their room for punishment, only to sit for 10 minutes playing with toys, how is that a punishment? If they dont know they did something wrong, then theres no consequences for their negative behavior, thus why most childrens time outs are given in a place away from toys and rewards.

Im not saying put the bird on the floor and go make dinner. And for some, putting a bird on the floor and walking away isnt an option, nor something they want to do. It's simply my opinion and suggestion.

Thank you Sulphiria. I didn't think of it that way.
I got to keep all this info in the ol toolbox just in case

 

[Sulphiria]

Thank you Sulphiria. I didn't think of it that way.
I got to keep all this info in the ol toolbox just in case

I think each person has to decide what works for them with biting or other unwanted behavior. We just have to give them all the options possible because, like kids, what works for one will not work for them all.

Birds and kids should come with instruction manuals. :09:

 

[ZoeS]

Sounds to me like you have taught your bird when she wants to go to her cage to play with her toys and doesnt want to interact, she just has to bite.

Yeah, I suppose that is a possibility, but it didn't work out that way with my birds. To be clear, the vast majority of the time a quick "no biting!" or blow in the face stopped the behaviour right away. It was only when it escalated to "I'm frustrating/hormonal/seeking negative attention right now raaaaa" that I put her in her cage, and that occurred maybe 4-5 times over a 2-3 month span. Since then I have never returned her to her cage for "disciplinary" reasons, and she never bites either, so it didn't translate to a learned behaviour for her.

When I HAVE seen this happen, is with my coworker's lovebird (this guy is mean, very bitey). She will not correct the biting behaviour the first 10 times (in fact she just jerks her hand away and he keeps coming, it's a game to get her attention), and then she gets fed up and puts him in his cage. I do believe that if you curb the behaviour at the first bite or suggestion of a bite (either by saying "no", blowing, tilting or shaking your hand [not the bird ], stopping what YOU are doing that is ticking off your bird, moving away from the bird and into its comfort zone, whatever) you shouldn't have to be putting them away from you (either holding them away from your face, on the floor, perch, or in their cage) very often at all.

Another of the problems that can be created from using a cage as time out. Just because its not *meant* to be a time out doesnt mean the bird sees it that way. Think of a 2 year old. If a 2 year old had a really nice room, plenty of toys and was put in their room for punishment, only to sit for 10 minutes playing with toys, how is that a punishment? If they dont know they did something wrong, then theres no consequences for their negative behavior, thus why most childrens time outs are given in a place away from toys and rewards.

It is meant to be a time out... for me anyway, I see a difference between punishment and time out. A time out is like... I'm ordering you to go over there and take a few deep breaths because you can't calm down on your own.

When we got unruly as kids (not being bad per se - like breaking things - but just being annoying, horsing around, yelling, etc and not listening when told to calm down) we were told to go to our rooms for x minutes. We didn't want to (more, I think, because we were disappointed that we'd upset our parents), but we'd go, read, sit, or whatever, and come out calm with a new frame of mind and ready to do something else. It was neither "yay! time to play with our toys!" nor was "oh nooooo we have been punished!"

We knew it was because we were being bad, because the order to go to our room came after a few warnings (well, I don't remember knowing this when I was 2, but it was clear my younger cousins that they knew).

Im not saying put the bird on the floor and go make dinner. And for some, putting a bird on the floor and walking away isnt an option, nor something they want to do. It's simply my opinion and suggestion.

I know, and I don't think it's wrong. I'm a big proponent of "whatever works" (working within reason, logic, gentleness and kindness, of course). If the floor works, or a perch, or cage, or whatever - it's all more or less the same idea: a physical interruption of the behaviour resulting in a different frame of mind or attitude after a few seconds of cooldown away from the offending creature (the human, lol).

I have also seen the floor not work... My aunt's lovebird is partially clipped but can easily get off the floor. The breeder advised them NOT to put her in the cage when biting to discourage a bite=cage association (I do NOT disagree with this btw - but in my experience it worked for me), and instead to put the bird on the floor. Even if the bird didn't fly to wherever it wanted to go, it didn't curb the HARD nipping (drawing blood). So I told her what my method was which is:
step 1 - light correction ("no", hand tilt, or blow in face)
step 2 (if biting continues) - medium correction (physically removing the bird from your face or whatever - when I did this i held her in my hand which I extended away from me - not tightly... alternatively, place the bird on the table in front of you if it won't be held)
step 3 (if biting escalates) - put in the cage

I will say it worked for her... And I truly don't think that it's because the birds developed a fear reaction or anything. Nothing else in their behaviour changed and they still seemed perfectly happy, busy birds, they just did not bite, or their bites turned into infrequent light nips... Which I suppose some might argue is just as bad but I think that birds are allowed to use their beaks to communicate as long as it's gentle - and they are allowed to reprimand us if we do something stupid.

Ultimately, if you have a better way, use it... and share it... I'm just saying what worked for me and my coworker's bird and my family member, is that system. I am the first one to admit it if I'm wrong, or change my ways if I think I'm doing wrong but I truly believe that this worked for me, and did not damage my birds in any way. YMMV

BTW, sorry for the novel...!

 

[lexx510]

Sounds to me like you have taught your bird when she wants to go to her cage to play with her toys and doesnt want to interact, she just has to bite.

Yeah, I suppose that is a possibility, but it didn't work out that way with my birds. To be clear, the vast majority of the time a quick "no biting!" or blow in the face stopped the behaviour right away. It was only when it escalated to "I'm frustrating/hormonal/seeking negative attention right now raaaaa" that I put her in her cage, and that occurred maybe 4-5 times over a 2-3 month span. Since then I have never returned her to her cage for "disciplinary" reasons, and she never bites either, so it didn't translate to a learned behaviour for her.

When I HAVE seen this happen, is with my coworker's lovebird (this guy is mean, very bitey). She will not correct the biting behaviour the first 10 times (in fact she just jerks her hand away and he keeps coming, it's a game to get her attention), and then she gets fed up and puts him in his cage. I do believe that if you curb the behaviour at the first bite or suggestion of a bite (either by saying "no", blowing, tilting or shaking your hand [not the bird ], stopping what YOU are doing that is ticking off your bird, moving away from the bird and into its comfort zone, whatever) you shouldn't have to be putting them away from you (either holding them away from your face, on the floor, perch, or in their cage) very often at all.

Another of the problems that can be created from using a cage as time out. Just because its not *meant* to be a time out doesnt mean the bird sees it that way. Think of a 2 year old. If a 2 year old had a really nice room, plenty of toys and was put in their room for punishment, only to sit for 10 minutes playing with toys, how is that a punishment? If they dont know they did something wrong, then theres no consequences for their negative behavior, thus why most childrens time outs are given in a place away from toys and rewards.

It is meant to be a time out... for me anyway, I see a difference between punishment and time out. A time out is like... I'm ordering you to go over there and take a few deep breaths because you can't calm down on your own.

When we got unruly as kids (not being bad per se - like breaking things - but just being annoying, horsing around, yelling, etc and not listening when told to calm down) we were told to go to our rooms for x minutes. We didn't want to (more, I think, because we were disappointed that we'd upset our parents), but we'd go, read, sit, or whatever, and come out calm with a new frame of mind and ready to do something else. It was neither "yay! time to play with our toys!" nor was "oh nooooo we have been punished!"

We knew it was because we were being bad, because the order to go to our room came after a few warnings (well, I don't remember knowing this when I was 2, but it was clear my younger cousins that they knew).

Im not saying put the bird on the floor and go make dinner. And for some, putting a bird on the floor and walking away isnt an option, nor something they want to do. It's simply my opinion and suggestion.

I know, and I don't think it's wrong. I'm a big proponent of "whatever works" (working within reason, logic, gentleness and kindness, of course). If the floor works, or a perch, or cage, or whatever - it's all more or less the same idea: a physical interruption of the behaviour resulting in a different frame of mind or attitude after a few seconds of cooldown away from the offending creature (the human, lol).

I have also seen the floor not work... My aunt's lovebird is partially clipped but can easily get off the floor. The breeder advised them NOT to put her in the cage when biting to discourage a bite=cage association (I do NOT disagree with this btw - but in my experience it worked for me), and instead to put the bird on the floor. Even if the bird didn't fly to wherever it wanted to go, it didn't curb the HARD nipping (drawing blood). So I told her what my method was which is:
step 1 - light correction ("no", hand tilt, or blow in face)
step 2 (if biting continues) - medium correction (physically removing the bird from your face or whatever - when I did this i held her in my hand which I extended away from me - not tightly... alternatively, place the bird on the table in front of you if it won't be held)
step 3 (if biting escalates) - put in the cage

I will say it worked for her... And I truly don't think that it's because the birds developed a fear reaction or anything. Nothing else in their behaviour changed and they still seemed perfectly happy, busy birds, they just did not bite, or their bites turned into infrequent light nips... Which I suppose some might argue is just as bad but I think that birds are allowed to use their beaks to communicate as long as it's gentle - and they are allowed to reprimand us if we do something stupid.

Ultimately, if you have a better way, use it... and share it... I'm just saying what worked for me and my coworker's bird and my family member, is that system. I am the first one to admit it if I'm wrong, or change my ways if I think I'm doing wrong but I truly believe that this worked for me, and did not damage my birds in any way. YMMV

BTW, sorry for the novel...!

In behavioral terms, a time out is a form of punishment - negative punishment to be exact. Blowing in her face is considered positive punishment. Although punishment may seem to be an effective "cure" in the moment, you are actually harming your bird's emotional well being in the long run. I'd highly suggest reading Dr. Susan Friedman's article on why punishment should not be used with parrots and to learn about healthier methods of intervention.

http://behaviorworks.org/files/articles/What's Wrong with this Picture.pdf

 

[ZoeS]

In behavioral terms, a time out is a form of punishment - negative punishment to be exact. Blowing in her face is considered positive punishment. Although punishment may seem to be an effective "cure" in the moment, you are actually harming your bird's emotional well being in the long run. I'd highly suggest reading Dr. Susan Friedman's article on why punishment should not be used with parrots and to learn about healthier methods of intervention.

http://behaviorworks.org/files/articles/What's%20Wrong%20with%20this%20Picture.pdf

Thank you, I have read it, and it does make sense. But what I do not get is how a time out in a cage differs from a time out on the floor. Would being on the floor not be worse? Not only are you removing your attention, but you are placing a (presumably flightless) bird on the floor as a repercussion for biting? If Libby lands herself on the floor for some reason (either I set her down while I on the floor and then stand up, or she falls off something) she is far unhappier to be there than she is when she goes in her cage.

Everyone and everything I've read has indicated some manner of a light consequence for biting like a hand tilt (NOT so the bird falls off, but so they have to let go to keep their balance), or removing the bird from your general area (either to a cage or to the floor), blowing, etc.

I guess I don't understand how to provide positive reinforcement to teach a bird *not* to bite. One can't very well give treats constantly while a bird is not biting, and even ignoring bad behaviour seems to be discouraged by the article. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle because without using a negative consequence to discourage biting, how will it be stopped? Is it just a matter of grinning and bearing it when the odd bite does come your way for whatever reason? Is there a way to provide a positive reinforcement for not biting, that doesn't make the bird think "bite + stop biting = treat"?

 

[lexx510]

In behavioral terms, a time out is a form of punishment - negative punishment to be exact. Blowing in her face is considered positive punishment. Although punishment may seem to be an effective "cure" in the moment, you are actually harming your bird's emotional well being in the long run. I'd highly suggest reading Dr. Susan Friedman's article on why punishment should not be used with parrots and to learn about healthier methods of intervention.

http://behaviorworks.org/files/articles/What's%20Wrong%20with%20this%20Picture.pdf

Thank you, I have read it, and it does make sense. But what I do not get is how a time out in a cage differs from a time out on the floor. Would being on the floor not be worse? Not only are you removing your attention, but you are placing a (presumably flightless) bird on the floor as a repercussion for biting? If Libby lands herself on the floor for some reason (either I set her down while I on the floor and then stand up, or she falls off something) she is far unhappier to be there than she is when she goes in her cage.

Everyone and everything I've read has indicated some manner of a light consequence for biting like a hand tilt (NOT so the bird falls off, but so they have to let go to keep their balance), or removing the bird from your general area (either to a cage or to the floor), blowing, etc.

I guess I don't understand how to provide positive reinforcement to teach a bird *not* to bite. One can't very well give treats constantly while a bird is not biting, and even ignoring bad behaviour seems to be discouraged by the article. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle because without using a negative consequence to discourage biting, how will it be stopped? Is it just a matter of grinning and bearing it when the odd bite does come your way for whatever reason? Is there a way to provide a positive reinforcement for not biting, that doesn't make the bird think "bite + stop biting = treat"?

But what I do not get is how a time out in a cage differs from a time out on the floor.

You are absolutely right. A time out on the floor would still be a form of punishment. The only difference is what's already been pointed out. 1. Risk of bird associating punishment with cage. 2. Risk of being put in cage being reinforcement for biting.

I guess I don't understand how to provide positive reinforcement to teach a bird *not* to bite.

That is where the "Hierarchy of Intervention Strategies" comes into play.

Example: Bird chews on jewelry.

Remove all jewelry (Level 2 intervention) when handling bird as opposed to shaking bird for chewing on jewelry (Level 6 intervention).

Example 2: Bird bites finger

Reinforce bird (Level 3 intervention) every time it steps up on finger as opposed to blowing into her face every time that she bites (Level 6 intervention).

Point being, make sure you've exhausted all other options prior to punishment.

With that said, sometimes the bite is completely unexpected. It is, of course, difficult to simply ignore the bird and wait while your finger is being pierced with its beak. Whispering has been an effective way to distract Guava from biting. I usually look her in the eyes and whisper, "We don't bite." I make sure to frown while doing so. Parrots are very empathetic and can pick up on facial expressions quite well. I then praise her once she's calm and give her kisses (reinforcing desired behavior vs punishing for undesired). Just make sure not to praise immediately after biting or else you're reinforcing the undesired behavior. If she's in one of her "moods," I wait a moment (so that there's no association) then let her cool off on either the floor or her cage top. If she isn't in the mood to step up to begin with, I don't proceed (helps to avoid the bites to begin with). I respect her space and leave her be until she's ready to come to me.