Stand up, request or command?

[bahram]

Hi everyone, I'm a new African Grey owner and she is 2.5 years old. based on my research there are two different ideology, one says don't force parrot to do anything, and one says let them know you are the boss. I'm little bit confused right now. I don't want to force her to do anything, but right now she do anything she likes, and I need a little bit authority too. what do you think? how much force is acceptable? how do you treat your bird?

 

[LoveMyParrots]

First congrat on your new parrot

anyway, the first one is right.

There are no such thing as a 'alpha male' or 'alpha female' for a parrot. So telling your parrot that 'you' are the 'boss', simply won't work.

When you asked how much force is acceptable, it's actually really hard to answer. I try not to force my parrot to do anything he doesn't want to. Like, you know what I mean. lol

And I just give my parrot the treat from my hand since they are all tamed. The common treats I use is sunflower seed, millet, nuts and small pieces of unsalted popcorn. Sometimes dry fruit, but I use it at the end since it takes a bit longer for them to eat.

Hope this helped

 

[MaraWentz]

I'm the opposite. I say training is training. You train your pet, be it bird, dog, cat, rodent etc to do something, and the obvious thing to do is expect it done.

When I ask Erin to do something she must do it, its what I've trained her to do and for it she will be rewarded. If she wants to do it she will be rewarded with a click, treat, pet, kiss, praise, etc. If she doesn't want to do it she will be rewarded with a click and then being returned to whatever she was doing unless it's a need (like going to the vet). For things that aren't important and can't b forced for her to do- like using those lazy legs of hers to walk down the hall or to fly to her stand if I'm busy, she gets a few chances and then I go to do it for her (ie picking her up and taking her there). By the time I start heading over she makes the decision she likes to be in control and will then do it herself.

I think training refers to giving a command, not an option. Its the whole point of training. Why train if you don't care if the listen or not?

I've always ben the animal trainer in the house, not my hubby, and I am the enforcer (we use positive rewards, never negative) and when we got Erin she was barely tame and 1.5 ears old, wouldn't stop biting, and didn't now how to step up. i worked with her and whether she wanted to or not she had to step up and the first reward (since she was a picky eater and still is a bit) was getting put back down instead of held, then she tolerated it and was given a treat then put back, then she wanted it and wold be given a treat and held longer and kissed,etc. So occasionally i'd send the hubby over in my place and she'd lunge (she was done the biting stage, but was great at intimidation ) and Jhe'd give up and walk away, and so if my hubby even came near she'd lunge at him to get him to the pint where he didnt bothe to acknowledge her existance. But afte 2 weeks of that I put him in charge of training and eplained that it's training- you can't let her train you. 1 week later and he's picking her up no lunging no problem and if she shies away at fist it's her way o saying, I dnt want to, and then se will stop, step up, and be put back and it's over. and other times, majority of the time she does it willlingly.

 

[MonicaMc]

one says don't force parrot to do anything
I agree with this. It doesn't mean that you ignore your parrot and wait for the bird to interact with you. It means to not put your bird into an uncomfortable position that will result in negative behaviors or actions - i.e. biting for example.

The training is actually about *teaching* them to do a behavior rather than forcing them to. Think about teaching a kid math. It's rather hard to teach a kid to do math if they don't understand it but you stand there and expect them to do it without any help, but if you show them how and help them to figure it out, they'll be able to figure it out quicker with guidance.

It's to guide and teach them acceptable behaviors. It's based off of positive reinforcement, or in other words, trying to keep each interaction with your bird a positive one. The more fun and interesting things you do with your bird, the more likely it is that they'll enjoy spending time with you. Positive reinforcement is also about learning how to understand your bird. If you can figure out what they are telling you through body language, you can better work on not getting bitten.

Example of positive reinforcement with step up training -

The bird looks at your hand, you reward the bird. The bird takes a step towards your hand, you reward. The bird touches your hand (beak or foot), you reward. The bird puts a toe on your hand, you reward. The bird puts a foot on your hand, you reward. The bird puts both feet on your hand, you give one hell of a jackpot reward!

Bird figures out how to step up without being forced or coerced into doing so and has learned that getting on your hand means good things.



one says let them know you are the boss

This typically implies that the bird must obey everything you want it to do. Also often connected to doing a behavior without rewards. Kind of like working at a job that you don't enjoy and your not getting paid for it. Forcing a bird to do something they don't want to is putting them into a situation that they'll feel uncomfortable in and may lead to biting and/or aggression.

Examples of "being the boss" in getting a parrot to step up. Bird doesn't know how to step up, so the human being does one of the following things....

Bird doesn't know step up so you push against their stomach forcing them to become unbalanced and they have to step forward in order to not fall back, or move to the side. - Pushing against the chest to receive the same kind of behavior. - Lifting the birds tail feathers up, resulting in them having to "move forward" so as to not become unbalanced/fall. - Prying their feet up off the perch, kind of forcing a step up. - Chasing the bird around until the bird tires out and has no other option than to step up.


The bird doesn't understand what you are doing, and once the bird has stepped up, the bird may not receive a reward (or at least not a reward that is large enough for the behavior). This can lead to the bird biting you because they find this experience highly uncomfortable and potentially even scary.




What sounds better to you? Having a bird perform behaviors because it wants to and knows that he or she will be rewarded for doing so? Or because it has to as he or she has no other options? "Being the boss" is about taking away your birds choices. If your bird really enjoys spending time with you, the bird will come to you, whether flighted or clipped. Positive reinforcement is about giving your bird choices and respecting them. If they don't want to step up right now, and they don't *need* to step up, then you can try again later when the bird is ready to.



Having a bird is like having a relationship. You need to learn how to communicate and do things together that are enjoyable for both of you, while also learning to respect boundaries/moods.



This video kind of points out what not to do... the lady is forcing her grey into an uncomfortable position and the grey keeps telling her to "back off" or "I'm not comfortable with this" and yet she keeps forcing herself upon her grey.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr4QrTLKzjw]Parrot Training, Bird taming: What not to do - and helpful Tips - YouTube[/ame]




Although I don't agree with all of this trainers tecniques, she makes a good point in the following video... don't end a training session on a negative note. Try and make every training session a positive one, and end it before the bird gets bored or you frustrated. Training sessions *do not* need to be long. In fact, short, frequent training can be quite effective!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fOR83fBsP4]How to Train a Parrot : The Don'ts of Training Parrots - YouTube[/ame]



The following video shows two parrots taught through positive reinforcement to do various behaviors for working with them, handling them, grooming them and even behaviors for when they go to an avian vet.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EEBwjIoyXk]Training Baby Parrots - YouTube[/ame]




I view training as a way to teach as well as to learn, not as a way to command. Parrots aren't robots, they have their own likes, dislikes and personalities. I view training as a way of communication as well as a way to positively interact with our birds.

 

[MollyGreenCheeks]

To me the bottom line is we, the humans, are the boss. We have the birds living in our homes and we must take care of them, keep them busy, feed them, train them, etc.

As for how much do you push them to do what you want them to do, think of it this way. We have all, well most of us, had good bosses and bad bosses. The bad boss is always shouting orders, telling us what to do but because we don't like their approach or personality we may not do what they want us to do. On the other hand there is the good boss who just has something about them and when they say it's time to get to work we are happy to do what we are told to do.

I try to be that good boss with my birds so they are happy to "work" for me and when they don't do what they are asked to do then I take a step back and look at what is really going on, see if there is a problem and then fix it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[bahram]

Thanks a lot guys, it was really helpful

 

[mrgoogls]

i dont *force* cooper to do anything but stepup. if i go to take him out and he doesnt want to come, i still make him step up. but if he didnt want to come out i just put him back. if he didnt have any problems and wanted to come out i let him. i only do that because if he say, gets urt and doesnt want to leave him cage, i still need to get him out and to the vet. so if he learns he can do whatever he wants he will just never come. i think i have it sort of worked out. lol. good luck. hope this helps

 

[MaraWentz]

To me the bottom line is we, the humans, are the boss. We have the birds living in our homes and we must take care of them, keep them busy, feed them, train them, etc.

As for how much do you push them to do what you want them to do, think of it this way. We have all, well most of us, had good bosses and bad bosses. The bad boss is always shouting orders, telling us what to do but because we don't like their approach or personality we may not do what they want us to do. On the other hand there is the good boss who just has something about them and when they say it's time to get to work we are happy to do what we are told to do.

I try to be that good boss with my birds so they are happy to "work" for me and when they don't do what they are asked to do then I take a step back and look at what is really going on, see if there is a problem and then fix it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

You hit the nail on the head! I think when people imagine us 'forcing' our birds to do things/being the 'boss' they imagine us man handling them or chasing them around, or a cowering bird,etc.

 

[antoinette]

Members above have given you valuable information.

Let you bird know you are the boss, what is acceptable and not acceptable.
Never push your bird to do anything.

Patience and perseverance pays off in the long run, you will be rewarded greatly.