An interesting article about punishment

[Mark51]

Hi, all I came across this article yesterday and found it interesting. Admittedly I knew all that was in it but I just thought I'd share it because it could be very beneficial for new bird owners or for those who would like to improve the way they interact with their parrots

https://hari.ca/avian-care/behavior-training/parrot-training-trouble-punishment/

 

[Carl_Power]

This is interesting and some of it is helpful. I dont think id shake my Parrots cage to stop screaming though, seems a little barbaric lol.

I believe using association is the first and best method. An example is when mine would play bite alittle hard when he was younger or scream i would put him in his cage until he learned it was a punishment. I learned about association so i started putting a finger on his beak with slight pressure and firmly saying no and then putting him in the cage. Now i dont have to cage him, its rare he is naughty but just the finger on the beak and saying no stops any behaviour i dont like because he associates it with thinking i better stop or im going in my cage. It wasnt hard to train this and i dont have to punish him and feel guilty when he's sat sulking in his cage reinacting an RSPCA advert lol x

 

[GaleriaGila]

Self-reinforcing behavior, especially screaming, have tempted some to punishment. The Rbird loves the sound of his own noise so much that he seeks out bowls and cups to use as mini-echo-chambers. And since he's flighted and fearless, there's no such thing as time-out, only a very bird-reinforcing chase around the room. Fortunate to have no close neighbors and a tolerant nature, I just let him do his thang. Let 'er rip, Rickeybird!

Thought-provoking article. The more I think, therefore, the more I am (apologies to Rene Descartes)!

Thanks!

 

[wrench13]

I have always said that punishment, especially in the classic sense, does not work with parrots and almost always destroys trust, which is our only link to our companions. The only 'punishment' I have ever used with Salty and my other parrots was to time out on a chair back, with my back to him and no eye contact, and not long either, a minute or so at most. I call it shunning, and parrots in the wild state will do this to members who ignore the flock rules. Other punishments run the risks described in the article.

 

[DRB]

I do unto Perjo as I want her to do unto me.

 

[Mark51]

Hi, all Yes, I posted the article to show that punishment does not work with parrots. And that positive reinforcement is the way to go

 

[Kiwibird]

Personally, I think a bird needs positive reinforcement along with consequences for undesirable and unacceptable behaviors. I think many strictly positive reinforcement trained birds behave like total brats, just like human toddlers who are never punished, rewarded for everything and encouraged to do whatever the hell they please with 0 consequences for bad behavior. These professional trainers also seem not to realize in nature if a flock member acts up, the others put it in it's place right then and there. We are our parrots surrogate flock and they want to fit in and do what their flock does. I watched my parents amazons all my life and when one did something the other didn't like, it was handled immediately. They were very closely bonded and never hurt each other but they were certainly not above chasing or nipping each other over an offensive action. Now, I'm not another parrot so I'm not going to nip or come at my bird aggressively to teach him a lesson but I will teach him a lesson using undesirable consequences for him if one needs to be taught. That's why my bird is trustworthy enough to be free range, he knows what he is and isn't allowed to do and he doesn't get into things he shouldn't or cause damage when unsupervised. He understands certain behaviors have consequences he doesn't like and that if he doesn't do those things, he gets to do whatever else he wants all day long. He is a happy, healthy, sociable well adjusted bird with a huge amount of freedom because he is so well behaved.

That said, you have to make any 'punishments' strictly non-violent. Shaking or smacking a cage, squirting with water, physically striking or roughly handling the bird etc...- these are not acceptable actions on the part of the human and will only serve to break trust. Using a stern tone of voice, giving a time out, (gently) pushing a beak away from something, step up drills etc... are things a bird can gain something out of when it comes to learning the rules. Undesirable to the bird, but not threatening. I know it's an unfavorable opinion amongst the avian community to discipline, but if parrots are truly of the same mental capacity as toddlers (and they are) then they can connect the dots between a bad behavior and the resulting consequence for it. All it requires is humans to use some common sense as to what is an appropriate consequence for a parrot to learn from.

 

[LeaKP]

What wrench said and I would add that when Nigel gets his fluffies in a ruffle, I also try to divert attention as I would with a toddler. Those are my main go-tos with training.


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[Mark51]

Thank you all for your contributions I have not used anything other than positive reinforcement with Timmy so far. However I always reasoned that (as kiwibird said) if only positive reinforcement is used with no consequences to bad behaviour, it seems to me one would have a parrot that can do a lot of 'Good' things but would not refrain from doing the 'bad things (because there is no consequences to such bad behavior). Of course by consequences I don't mean real punishment, but rather a gentle message to the parrot that this is not acceptable. I have found the issue of biting quite difficult to deal with. Timmy has never really bitten me (never really paimful). But he nips a lot. For example if he doesn't want to step up, when I say step up and bring my hand close, he gives me a bite (sometimes even biting and pushing my hand away from him). It is definitely not an aggressive bite (No body language to indicate aggressiveness). Just a message that: no I don't want to step up. The same happens sometimes when I am giving him a head scratch... in the middle of the scratch (which he seems to be enjoying) he will turn his head and bite me... again it's not aggressive... just his way of saying he has had enough. I don't mind respecting his wishes and giving him his space, but from everything I have read about biting, one should not move hand away because this teaches the parrot that a bite will get it's human to move his/her have away. And this will reinforce the biting behaviour. I have tried keeping my hand still, but the longer I keep it, the harder he bites.. .. twice it started getting painful so I had to move my hand away. So in general what I always do is when he bites, I move my hand away and sternly (But calmly, with no drama) say: no biting. I am worried I'm making the mistake of reinforcing the biting by moving my hand away. I would really appreciate if you could critique what I am doing and how to deal with this situation in the best way. I have read something about pressing gently against the beak, but honestly I didn't understand exactly how this maneuver is carried out. Do i just push the beak away with one finger? If so, so I press on the upper beak straight back? Or downwards (as if making the parrot bow)? Or do i push the beak sideways (and turn the head)?
Or maybe I misunderstood. Maybe I'm supposed to take the beak between thumb and index and hold it? Please, I'd really appreciate any advise or pointers on dealing with my situation.
Thanks

 

[Birdee]

We had a TAG that would gently "remove" your hand by mouthing and pushing it away. I always felt like that was a respectful thing to do on her part as how else is she going to express her wants? She couldn't tell us "no." I learned to work with that. If she didn't want to go in the cage at night, I would simply bring her back out for another goodnight kiss and sit on my shoulder for another minute. Then she would agreeably go back in. It seemed like this was a good compromise, she got another minute and went back. No biggee. Sometimes I think our parrots just need to feel some control over their lives. I would love to have another TAG, but can only find babies, and even those are hard to find.

 

[ChristaNL]

Mark: don't teach Timmy that he has to bite harder to get what he wants.
(you to stop)
It's the natural thing to do: first give a small warning, then a larger, then an even larger one etc.etc. till (painfull bite) you get one you can not ignore.

Once they find they have to go all the way to get the desired reaction from you they will start to skip the first fases completely (because they are not working anyway) and you get "a bitey parrot, who wil lash out out of the blue".
(that happens a lot! Reason number one for rehoming- next to screaming of course )

Have you read the 'bitepresure' tread?
http://www.parrotforums.com/training/63988-bite-pressure-training.html
(just had it open myself)

Birds communicate bij movement first and using their beaks second.
Really look for it an you'll see before Timmy grabs your finger there wil be a few (very short) moments of extra stillness (like him holding his breath).

It is annoyingly subtle, but it is there (I miss it a LOT) - that is the first warning, saying "Ehm...I've had enough, thank you, now plze stop doing that" (at least on that particulair spot).
It is okay to miss that- we give scritches a lot and are not always 100% focussed on them- (I read the screen while cuddling parrots or watch tv) so this is where the "gently"-reminder comes in.
I find it okay to have them use their beak to move the hand/ finger away, but not in a bitey way!

So instead of encouraging harder bites (and they *will* reinforce the message if you do not respond to their polite request to let go/ stop --it's a DNA-thing) let them know: "Hey- I heard you, but TONE IT DOWN!"
So usually I will tell them "gently", offer my finger again so we can figure out how much pressure is acceptable.

Nowadays the macaw is being very random about it (only been here about 5 months and she has other issues), but the greys will just touch, sometimes hold and push of... if they *really* are in no mood to (example) step up they give my hand a very dirty look first and then (Appie esp.) use just a little too much force just to show me she is NOT enjoying this but not really biting, she just grabs hold and gives me a clothespin-pressure-like pinch for a few seconds.
(And that is the max of her acting out her displeasure. She made her point, I got it - everybody is happy.)


Learn his bodylanguage (he probably already mastered yours) and work on "gently".
You are going to do great together.

 

[DRB]

I have not nor will ever punish Perjo. When she does something that I dislike (usually it's only biting me) I simply say "No No No" and walk away or try to get her to touch her beak on my forehead.

 

[Siffy]

I think a lot of people misunderstand the point of a time-out and it makes it ineffective. I've spent a lot of time working with kids and a lot of that transfers over to parrots, if you come at a behavior seeing it as a battle then you've already lost. What you want is to see a bad behavior as an issue that both you and the bird or child can work on together so you're both happier at the end.

With children, I never used the word time-out, since it made the kids more upset and made them feel victimized. Instead, I would tell kids that we were "both going to take a minute to calm down and then try again". This was always marginally more effective since a time-out left kids stewing in their anger but a moment to calm down let them figure things out themselves. It helped give me time to think through the situation too.

Now I work in a parrot store with a lot of GCCs, quite a few of whom either start out or end up very nippy and bite too hard. This is something I work on with them along with stepping up and learning to fly to me and to perches. I use the "gentle" command to ask them to touch me gently, when they do give me a gentle touch they get a treat! The very important second half of it is that when they touch me too hard (biting down or any kind of grinding), I firmly say "No." and then I remove the treat from their line of sight and I turn around giving them no attention for about 10 seconds. Then I turn around and try again. This works wonders for biters and I had GCC turn from a hard biter to a sweet cuddly bug who liked to mouth in a matter of a few days. He found a home shortly after that.

The time-out in this training isn't meant to punish the bird, it's meant to 1) clearly establish that biting will not get them the treat and will delay their chance at it 2) it gives the bird a chance to calm themselves down and think through how to earn the treat. It's not a long period but it's more then enough for a impatient little birdie who just wants me to hand over the banana chip. They want to work with me to get the chip and that communicates clearly too them that that is not the behavior I want. I'm not trying to fight the bird, I'm just communicating what is that I want from them and what I do not.

 

[bigfellasdad]

We had a TAG that would gently "remove" your hand by mouthing and pushing it away. I always felt like that was a respectful thing to do on her part as how else is she going to express her wants? She couldn't tell us "no." I learned to work with that. If she didn't want to go in the cage at night, I would simply bring her back out for another goodnight kiss and sit on my shoulder for another minute. Then she would agreeably go back in. It seemed like this was a good compromise, she got another minute and went back. No biggee. Sometimes I think our parrots just need to feel some control over their lives. I would love to have another TAG, but can only find babies, and even those are hard to find.

Totally agree with this.