Bird On top of cage

[Violet]

I said its kinda, never said it is, plus I said its my opinion...It depends on how you put it....not saying I don't agree with what you say either....

I hope you don't feel like I am attacking you because I wasn't, simply debating a point. If you agree with me though than technically you disagree with what you said and the dominance theory

I agree that it has to do with dominance in an underlying factor. As when they are higher up I fell that they feel more dominant and tend to refuse commands or bite. However, FACT, many, many books, and all people knowledgeable of parrots understand that the overall reason of the height is SECURITY. They're security is being up high. They feel safe up there, and rightfully so. I however feel that where they feel feel secure they feel in control of the situation and where one is secure they are dominant. That is how I feel about the topic. Many people will say that the hieght contributing to dominance is a myth, and that it really is height being a secuirty to them, but I llink security and dominance together.

Parrot Training Myth #3: Height Dominance | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Height dominance is a myth - ParrotChronicles Why Does My Bird Do That? Q&A

Eight myths and half-truths about parrot behavior « Peggy’s Parrot Place

You are contradicting yourself though... All those links you posted are in support of abolishing dominance-based behaviour thinking when it comes to parrots, so I don't understand why you are using them to support your ideas. You say:

I however feel that where they feel feel secure they feel in control of the situation and where one is secure they are dominant.

If I am understanding correctly, parrots who are secure (not nervous) become dominant, which leads to aggressive behaviour. If this is the case, than are all non-biting pet birds friendly because they are insecure and nervous, therefore, not dominant? Does this mean we have to make our birds feel nervous and insecure in order to make them handleable?

 

[MaraWentz]

They disgaree with my statement that it is due to dominance- yes. theses are facts i gathered stating it is not dominance but a security issue and I respect and agree, but ont he other hand I link security to dominance. Where you feel safe and secure you are most likely to feel in control of the situation and where a person or a thing is in control they are dominant. Therefore I understand others stating it is a security issue rather than a dominance and I agree it is a security issue, but I also believes it leads to a dominance issue.

And it response to your confusion I am saying once again, some one or something that feels secure is in control and thus dominant and as I stated earlier, this does often cause aggressive behavior, however, as I also stated early not always. Parrots are all not the same. When a parrot is scared it bites and they look for security and once they find it some tend to be aggressive to any one who disturbs their security and tries to take over the situation (ie- removing them form the place of security). Some parrots are okay with that and some bite. However, do not mix my word- not ALL secure feeling or dominant parrots are aggressive. Im not contradicting but rather seeing both sides of the arguement and understanding them. I am open minded.SOrry if I confused you.

 

[MikeyTN]

No, I stand by what I said! You really have absolutely no idea what it's like having different types of birds do you? You can not base your assumptions by having a Lovebird and reading stuffs when you have no actual experience. As I put it, I don't disagree with everything you say, but I never said I agreed either. I just try to be open about it instead trying to out do someone.

 

[evesta]

I wouldn't get rid of the budgie since you knew he was part of the deal and they are bonded. The budgie is no less of a parrot than a conure and deserves the same respect and love.

 

[_Temptations_]

Its a birds instinct to want to be at the highest point no matter where they are. It could be your shoulder, the top of the cage or the top of the play stand. However, some birds are known to be cage aggressive and once away from the cage, the biting will stop. Does she come out of the cage by herself? If she does, try to get her to let you take her out. Don't back away when she bites, that's only showing her she can get what she wants by intimidating you. If you happen to get her out of the cage peacefully, reward her. If she bites while out of the cage, put her back in. She'll start to associate no biting with a reward and biting with being caged. This could be the start of teaching her not to bite.

I disagree with this, don't bother her if she is in her cage. Lots, and I mean LOTS of parrots are cage aggressive and do not like having people sticking their hands in their cage. Instead of asking her to accept you entering her space, open the cage door and just allow her to come out on her own. If the top of the cage is easily accessible and not too high for you to reach comfortably, this is a good system because the bird will learn that if she wants to interact with you she can move to the top (outside) of the cage, but if she wants to be left alone, she can stay in her cage and won't be bothered. Birds LOVE when people are predictably safe, that is, they thrive on relationships with clear communication. Just like a dog can learn that his crate is a 'safe' place where he can go when he doesn't want to be bothered, birds can learn that instead of biting you to tell you to back off, they can go into their cage and will be left alone.

Building on this concept, try not to get bitten. Like Temptations said, if you do get bitten don't pull away (just grit your teeth and endure), but generally, if you see the signs back off. What you want the bird to think is that if she communicates clearly that she would prefer not to be held (my bird puffs up and looks lowers her head), that she doesn't need to resort to biting to tell you that. Because I have learnt to read my parrot and have respected her signals, she rarely ever bites me because I don't bug her when she doesn't feel like socializing. This is really important!

Now on the flipside of this, when she *does* step up - make it totally worth it! Feed her her favourite treat, make being with you a positive experience (talk to her, give her gentle scritches if she likes that, whatever) so that she learns stepping up and spending time with you is way more fun than staying in/on her cage.

The bottom line is that parrots, like people, respond to classical conditioning and have moods. If you want to have a great relationship with your parrot, show them that being with you is really rewarding and fun, and show them that they can trust you to respect their feelings.

While this is understandable, I think that if the bird learns to accept you in their space you'll have a better relationship. When she comes out of her cage, she is in YOUR space, and you should be ALLOWING her to enter your space and not letting her enter on her terms. Birds interact with each other the same way. Each bird likes their own space and if another bird enters their space they get aggressive unless they want the other birds to enter their space and I think this should work with a human-bird relationship as well. I think that each space, including the cage, should be shared. Just my opinion.

 

[Violet]

They disgaree with my statement that it is due to dominance- yes. theses are facts i gathered stating it is not dominance but a security issue and I respect and agree, but ont he other hand I link security to dominance. Where you feel safe and secure you are most likely to feel in control of the situation and where a person or a thing is in control they are dominant. Therefore I understand others stating it is a security issue rather than a dominance and I agree it is a security issue, but I also believes it leads to a dominance issue.

And it response to your confusion I am saying once again, some one or something that feels secure is in control and thus dominant and as I stated earlier, this does often cause aggressive behavior, however, as I also stated early not always. Parrots are all not the same. When a parrot is scared it bites and they look for security and once they find it some tend to be aggressive to any one who disturbs their security and tries to take over the situation (ie- removing them form the place of security). Some parrots are okay with that and some bite. However, do not mix my word- not ALL secure feeling or dominant parrots are aggressive. Im not contradicting but rather seeing both sides of the arguement and understanding them. I am open minded.SOrry if I confused you.

Don't be sorry, I understand what you are saying... I just disagree Birds don't bite because they feel confident and secure, they bite when they feel anxious or insecure. I know birds can appear as though they are confident when threatening you (they put on 'the look' if you know what I mean), but from an evolutionary standpoint, it would be to an animal's disadvantage to appear weak when in a battle for a secure position with another organism. If they felt threatened, it makes sense that they would threaten back - similar to how a cornered animal (which is scared) will act aggressively to defend itself or it's resources. Unlike some other domesticated animals birds are still very 'wild' and fall back heavily on very primal instincts. If it was in the wild, getting that high up spot or area close to food reserves could be the difference between life and death, so it makes sense to act aggressively in desperation to keep the good spot.

No, I stand by what I said! You really have absolutely no idea what it's like having different types of birds do you? You can not base your assumptions by having a Lovebird and reading stuffs when you have no actual experience. As I put it, I don't disagree with everything you say, but I never said I agreed either. I just try to be open about it instead trying to out do someone.

Clearly I have offended or upset you, but I will try to ignore your jabs and answer your questions. You are correct in that I have firsthand experience with lovebirds but not much with big birds (did you go through my post history to get that..? lol). I am currently studying biology and psychology with a focus on animal behaviour and evolution. Much of our class time is spent on social behaviour, specifically in birds. I also work as a dog trainer and consider myself to be well-versed in behavioural modification and the application of classical and operant conditioning. For fun I spend a lot of time learning about animal behaviour (specifically birds and dogs) and enjoy reading books and watching seminars on the subject. While you may have more direct experience than I do, I definitely don't believe that is the do all end of all of acquiring knowledge.

I know plenty of people who have owned more dogs than I have in my lifetime (so far) but I work as a dog trainer and compete with my dog while they don't, so... Anyway, take what you will. I am not trying to outdo anyone, but I saw something that I know to be incorrect and wanted to point it out. I guess I don't see the point of joining a discussion forum if I am afraid of offending people when I state that I think they are incorrect and not providing accurate information. When you say you try to be open about it that doesn't really make sense lol. We aren't talking opinions here, we are talking facts and concepts founded in science. Animal behaviour is very precise and scientific. You saying you try to be open about it is like saying I try to be open about the possibility that McDonald's food is healthy It's not. Opinion vs. fact lol.

I feel like you are upset and I am not sure what I can say to make you believe I am not trying to belittle or 'outdo' you, I simply wanted to point out that science disagrees with your view on parrot behaviour and perhaps have a healthy discussion about it. Oh well

While this is understandable, I think that if the bird learns to accept you in their space you'll have a better relationship. When she comes out of her cage, she is in YOUR space, and you should be ALLOWING her to enter your space and not letting her enter on her terms. Birds interact with each other the same way. Each bird likes their own space and if another bird enters their space they get aggressive unless they want the other birds to enter their space and I think this should work with a human-bird relationship as well. I think that each space, including the cage, should be shared. Just my opinion.

I guess I could put it this way - would you like to have to share your bedroom with your brother? You say she has to learn to accept you into her space, but then go on to say she is not allowed in your space (the rest of the house) unless you allow it... So basically, she has to accept your presence whenever you feel like it but she is not allowed to choose when she would like to see you, to? I see where you are coming from but I don't think there is anything wrong with allowing an animal to have a place that is theirs and that they can go to and won't be disturbed. I definitely agree that animal's have their own personal bubble (just like us!) that they like to be respected, but flocking birds don't typically get an entire house-worth of space to themselves Territorial birds - absolutely. But if their personal bubble or territory is that large they probably aren't bonding much with the neighbour birds on the level that we would be wanting to bond with our pet birds.

Each bird likes their own space and if another bird enters their space they get aggressive unless they want the other birds to enter their space and I think this should work with a human-bird relationship as well. I think that each space, including the cage, should be shared. Just my opinion.

So in blue, you say that birds-human relationships should work like bird-bird relationships in that if one invades the other's 'personal bubble' that they should get aggressive. In red though, you say everything should be shared, which doesn't make sense in relation to blue or to your previous statement that the bird should be 'allowed' into the rest of the house (aka bird must exit cage on our terms not their terms... so not shared). I would be very interested in continuing chatting about it if you could just clear that up for me because I am not sure which you mean.

 

[MikeyTN]

So your saying Animal behavior is very precise and scientific, are you saying they all should behave a certain way? I certainly don't think so. Your coming from a scientific way as what your learning from books and such, when doing direct contact, it's something completely different! For instance, from books and lots of websites said that Huskies don't guard house and are generally laid back, I beg the difference after owning 6 huskies. ALL my girl huskies DO NOT and I mean do not allow a stranger into my home, they pin them at the front door and grow at them until I say it's ok. You try to use scientific explanation and try to see where you get with my Cockatoo and macaw, let's see how far you will go. I have read and studied many different sources, nothing compared to dealing with one. The reason I know you started with a Lovebird is because you just joined the forum, it's very recent postings.

 

[Mare Miller]

This debate makes me chuckle...I'm thinking that what it really comes down to, is...living it. Then you will truly know the answer.

 

[Violet]

So your saying Animal behavior is very precise and scientific, are you saying they all should behave a certain way? I certainly don't think so. Your coming from a scientific way as what your learning from books and such, when doing direct contact, it's something completely different! For instance, from books and lots of websites said that Huskies don't guard house and are generally laid back, I beg the difference after owning 6 huskies. ALL my girl huskies DO NOT and I mean do not allow a stranger into my home, they pin them at the front door and grow at them until I say it's ok. You try to use scientific explanation and try to see where you get with my Cockatoo and macaw, let's see how far you will go. I have read and studied many different sources, nothing compared to dealing with one. The reason I know you started with a Lovebird is because you just joined the forum, it's very recent postings.

Yes, I am saying animal behaviour is (in the majority of cases) very predictable in the sense of why they behave in certain ways and what motivates them to do so. And yes, it is absolutely grounded in science. It's not that they should all behave a certain way at all, it's that animals genes and experiences shape their behaviour (some of which is more genetic, some of which is more experience - different for different behaviours), and when it comes to what creates a behaviour, animals function very predictably. Some animals are born performing behaviours (ex. robins feed the chicks with the biggest, reddest mouths - this is not a learnt behaviour but the appearance of the babies mouths serves as an innate releasing mechanism), some have a genetic predisposition to acquiring behaviours as a result of their genes, and some behaviours are simply a product of the organism's environment.

I don't know what resources told you that huskies are laid back, but among dog people they are definitely not known for being laid back, so... I never said anywhere I was a master parrot tamer and could better handle your macaw and cockatoo than you could. I disagreed with you on one aspect of parrot behaviour and approach to training (mind you, a pretty fundamental concept). I am not sure why I am being challenged to better handle your parrots than you.

I am not saying experience isn't important. Experience is important. However, I have met countless scores of people with much more experience than I have that still use dominance-based theories when it comes to dog training and have difficulty training their pets to do even the most simple of behaviours. I am not saying this is you. I am saying experience does not necessarily = lots of knowledge and that it doesn't make that 'knowledge' accurate.

 

[MikeyTN]

Give and Take, I understand what your saying. So we just agree to disagree.....lol This can go on and on and on....We both can debate forever as we see things in different views. So we should just leave it the way it is. Agreed?

 

[Violet]

Give and Take, I understand what your saying. So we just agree to disagree.....lol This can go on and on and on....We both can debate forever as we see things in different views. So we should just leave it the way it is. Agreed?

Yeah we are going in circles, let's call it a day lol.

 

[oled]

Life can change and so can perrot so as I see it it is good if they are used to a cage