Budgies are fighting

[BlooBloo]

I have two young budgies (probably near puberty), I don't know their gender yet, but they are siblings and have briefly stayed together with another owner before and seem quite accustomed to each other. They will preen, spend most of their time together, always call out when one goes off adventuring alone, and generally look after one another.

But recently they have begun to fight quite vigorously several times a day. They will leap on each other's backs, peck and grab one another in their claws while screaming. They sometimes chase each other around and will often climb up to the ceiling or high on the walls of the cage to duke it out. Things generally do calm down again eventually but I worry they're going to hurt each other and the ruckus is pretty unpleasant. I've seen no signs of wounds or plucked feathers so far though.

Any ideas what could be causing this? A good way to break it up?

 

[Flboy]

Please, separate cages! Someone may die!

 

[EllenD]

As a life-long Budgie owner/breeder/hand-raiser, the first thing you need to do, and you won't like this, but is separate them into their own, individual cages ASAP!!! Once this starts it typically doesn't stop, and it typically ends in at least one, if not two dead Budgies...Sorry, but this is typically started around the time they go through puberty (around a year old, sometimes a bit younger) and one or both birds have their sex-hormones kick-in...And it won't stop and will only progress until they kill literally kill each other...You can't stop it...It's just nature...

You can keep their individual cages in the same room and next to each other so they can talk to each other and see each other, but they absolutely cannot keep sharing the same territory. That's the issue, one or both have gotten their sex hormones raging, and now they are fighting because they are sharing the same territory...Sometimes they get along just fine once they are separated into their own cages and then let out together (UNDER SUPERVISION ONLY FOR THE REST OF TIME!), sometimes they will still fight outside of their cages once they are separated....But they will still have each other to talk to, and generally once they both have their own cages they typically like each other a bit more again when both are let outside together under supervision...It's a territorial-hormonal problem that is very common and has only one solution unfortunately...

I'm going to go ahead and assume they are both the same sex, if you can tell as of now visually, usually they are when this happens...And if they are of the opposite sex then you'd have to separate them into their own cages anyway because they would start inbreeding since they are siblings...So any way you look at it, you must get another cage, dishes, and toys and separate them immediately, like today!!! I don't want you to come home to two Budgies who are badly injured and need to go to an emergency Avian Vet and that will cost you a hell of a lot more money than the cost of a second cage, dishes, toys, and Mineral Block/Cuttlebone...

 

[BlooBloo]

Oh man, I was afraid to hear this. I'm unsure how I will handle that. Fitting the cage I bought for the both of them has pushed space allowance in my apartment to the very limit already (it's a pretty big one) and I'm not sure how I will fit a second cage in.

What is an acceptable cage size for a single budgie?

 

[BlooBloo]

I do have an extra cage but it is on the smaller side, probably much smaller than it ought to be. But maybe it could do for a temporary solution.

 

[EllenD]

Well if you go to your local Petco (not Petsmart, as they have way more cages than Petco so I can't give you a reference size from them), and you look at the 2 different cages that they sell that are labeled for Budgies (yes, they only have 2, one is a square cage and one is rounded), they are both too small for one Budgie...But if you look at either of the cages that Petco sells that are labeled for Cockatiels (one is just a square/rectangular shape, and one looks like a house; the regular one is better than the house one in my opinion, it has more usable space inside it to hang toys and for dishes, Cuttlebone/Mineral Block, etc.), the Cockatiel cages would be the MINIMUM SIZE for a single Budgie. What you need to remember is that just because a cage will only house one bird instead of two doesn't mean that the cage size can be smaller; I know that seems counterintuitive, but you still must have enough room that not only will the Budgie be able to fully-open and spread it's wings without them or their tail touching the cage bars, but you also must have enough space inside to house at least 6-10 different toys at all times so the bird doesn't get bored, as well as a food dish, water dish, and a Cuttlebone and Mineral Block.

So as a rule, with all of my Budgies, whether pets or breeders, I would NEVER even look for a cage labeled as being for Budgies, because they are ALL TOO SMALL, but instead would purposely only look for cages labeled as being for Cockatiels and larger...

As far as space goes (I know you have a Studio apartment, I think that's what you said), I know you're limited, but you don't have a choice here at all. A Cockatiel cage that is meant as a tabletop cage (not a floor cage that takes-up a ton of space, most of it being for the stand it sits on and not actually the cage) won't take up too much space and will be large enough to house one of your Budgies along with 6-10 toys (Budgies LOVE the cheap, $2-$5 plastic bird toys they sell at Petco, so you can get away with not buying the huge, expensive toys), a food and water dish, 2 perches, and Cuttlebone and small Mineral Block...And you can sit it on top of a piece of existing furniture you already have if possible. OR you can hang it from a hook in the ceiling as long as it's put in a stud...Bottom line is you don't need some huge floor-cage that is going to be like another piece of furniture, you can just get a tabletop Cockatiel-size cage and sit it on top of an existing piece of furniture somewhere already in your apartment...

I think the Cockatiel cages at Petco, the square ones, cost around $50, but if I were you I would just go onto your local Craigslist page (Community-Pets), and do a search for "Bird Cage" and set the search for a 25 mile radius or however far you're willing to drive; at any given time there are usually dozens of bird cages for sale, and the tabletop cages that are large enough for a Cockatiel or larger bird you can usually get for like $10-$20 in great shape...And if you're lucky, you'll find someone who just lost their bird or who sold their bird, and they're selling the cage along with a ton of toys, dishes, different types of perches, etc. extremely cheap because they just want it gone...I used to buy all of my cages for my breeders this way because I refused to keep my breeders in those tiny little breeding cages that they sell, so I'd find complete cage set-ups with everything I needed plus some for $20 and under...You just have to make sure you completely disinfect any pre-owned cage and anything else that comes with it like dishes, perches, toys, etc., even if it looks very clean and the owner says they disinfected it, you still need to scrub everything just to be safe...

I'm sorry you have to do this, it sucks, I know, but if it helps you at all, this same thing happens to a lot of people every single day. They decide to bring a parrot into their life and their family, and for whatever reason they either decide on their own to get 2 birds, or they are purposely sold 2 birds by an unscrupulous breeder or pet shop employee who tells them that they can't just keep one parrot, they have to have at least 2, otherwise "it's cruel" and the bird would be lonely, etc., which is a bunch of BS because YOU are the bird's Flock, friend, and companion, and as long as you spend a good amount of time with your bird every day, it doesn't need "a friend" at all, they just want to sell you two instead of one...And of course they fail to mention that they might absolutely hate each other and not only fight but actually severely hurt or kill each other...

I wish there was a better answer for you, but again, there just isn't. You can't force two birds of any species to like each other, siblings or not, and there isn't any way to "train" them to like each other either. Birds, especially parrots, form their relationships with each other very much like people do: they might love each other, they might like each other, they might just tolerate each other, they might hate each other, and they might hate each other and become violent/aggressive...And being forced to share the same territory can actually cause two parrots who really do get along and like each other a lot to develop a hatred for each other that results in aggression and physical violence, and that's what happened with your two Budgies, they probably did get along fine until they went to their new home away from their parent-birds/breeder and were put into their new "territory", their sex-hormones showed-up, and BAM!, they will keep trying to hurt each other until they each have their own territories.

The only good news is that once they are separated into their own cages and they are no longer forced to share one cage, it's likely that they will go back to liking each other, and a lot of the time they can be let out of their cages together and they get along just fine as long as they are together in/on "neutral territory", meaning anywhere away from either of their cages. But you really need to get a second complete cage set-up and separate them ASAP, like YESTERDAY, because it only takes a second for one of them to lose their entire beak, an eye, both eyes, or for them to suffer a bite to an artery and then that's it, they bleed to death in a matter of a minute or two...Because Budgies are so small, they can only lose about 2 Teaspoons of blood before they die of blood-loss. So please keep an extremely close eye on them 24/7 until you get the second cage set-up...

 

[BlooBloo]

You would say they should definitely be seperated? These episodes aren't constant and I haven't seen any signs of harm so far. They spend most of their time together otherwise, preening and chattering, they always call out to each other when seperated during outside time and they tend to follow each other around. By most other counts they're very social and friendly, but these fights do worry me.

I really don't have any space for another cage in my apartment of an appropriate size, that's unfortunately a no-option for me right now. I'm not sure what I should do in this case. I have a friend who is interested in getting birds who might be willing to take one of them and I could potentially try to introduce a new bird later on.

It's an awkward position I'm in. I adopted those guys because the last owner couldn't keep them and they had nowhere to go, they were originally bought from a private breeder. The cage they were living in was incredibly tiny and they've seemed pretty happy with their big new one in my apartment but since then this issue has started rearing it's head.

 

[Flboy]

You would say they should definitely be seperated? These episodes aren't constant and I haven't seen any signs of harm so far. They spend most of their time together otherwise, preening and chattering, they always call out to each other when seperated during outside time and they tend to follow each other around. By most other counts they're very social and friendly, but these fights do worry me.

I really don't have any space for another cage in my apartment of an appropriate size, that's unfortunately a no-option for me right now. I'm not sure what I should do in this case. I have a friend who is interested in getting birds who might be willing to take one of them and I could potentially try to introduce a new bird later on.

It's an awkward position I'm in. I adopted those guys because the last owner couldn't keep them and they had nowhere to go, they were originally bought from a private breeder. The cage they were living in was incredibly tiny and they've seemed pretty happy with their big new one in my apartment but since then this issue has started rearing it's head.

This will continue, it will get worse! Give up space, to fit the second cage!

 

[ChristaNL]

They wont stop untill you make them.
Sorry about your livingroom-space, but it cannot be helped.

 

[BlooBloo]

Thank you very much for the responses, I'm going to be very observant and careful watching them from now on to make sure they don't really hurt each other.

I sadly really don't have any space left to give up for a second cage in my apartment, the rest is covered by necessities. I don't think I have much choice but to start inquiring about a permanent seperation, at least I know a friend of mine interested in taking on birds.

 

[ParrotGenie]

I have two young budgies (probably near puberty), I don't know their gender yet, but they are siblings and have briefly stayed together with another owner before and seem quite accustomed to each other. They will preen, spend most of their time together, always call out when one goes off adventuring alone, and generally look after one another.

But recently they have begun to fight quite vigorously several times a day. They will leap on each other's backs, peck and grab one another in their claws while screaming. They sometimes chase each other around and will often climb up to the ceiling or high on the walls of the cage to duke it out. Things generally do calm down again eventually but I worry they're going to hurt each other and the ruckus is pretty unpleasant. I've seen no signs of wounds or plucked feathers so far though.

Any ideas what could be causing this? A good way to break it up?

You need to separate them ASAP!! When they chase and jump on each other, they are likely not going to work it out and will likely end badly with serious injuries, or dead bird. Re-home one if you have to.

 

[BlooBloo]

Hey again, I have an update and some questions on my situation.

The birds are still fighting although less viciously, it does come down to mostly chasing and screeching but has matured into fighting about toys, food, high perches. Half the time they do preen each other and act friendly but those conflicts are much too often and I'm concerned it is only going to get worse.

I've arranged potential new home for one of my guys, but what could I expect from a seperation? Will they be okay becoming lone birds for a while? I would like to get them new buddies but I think I need to get them more hand tame and calmed down before contemplating that considering how this went.

Thanks for the support and advice. It's been stressful.

 

[ChristaNL]

As long as they can still see each other and maybe interact when they are outside the cages (multiple!) without fighting that is okay,

you do not need more birds!

They are fine with the company that is not going to murder them in their sleep but they can still talk to and see.

 

[BlooBloo]

As I have stated previously I unfortunately do not have room for another cage. I believe now I have two hens so I'm considering to re-home one of them and introduce a new ****.

 

[BlooBloo]

Er, male. A new male.

 

[ChristaNL]

Or you could just stick to one bird
females are rather picky about the guys, so you may go through 5-6-7-8 of them before she decides to settle for that one.


(oh, okay it's budgies not lovebirds, but still "a male" will probably not be the answer)

 

[EllenD]

Okay, so you need to learn from what is going on right now...And I'm not saying this to be a smart-ass or to be mean/nasty to you, but to really get you thinking about this so you don't keep making the same exact mistake and have to keep going through this same problem over and over and over again like some people do...Well, a lot of people do because they just don't get it, or they just won't listen...

First of all, yes, please give one of your Budgies to your friend IMMEDIATELY if you just cannot make space for a second table-top cage right now, I hate to see that happen to you (NOT TO THEM, TO YOU, THEY DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER AND DON'T WANT TO SHARE THEIR "TERRITORY" WITH EACH OTHER, SO YES, THEY'LL NOT ONLY BE FINE BEING LONE-BIRDS, BUT THEY'LL BE MUCH HAPPIER BIRDS, BOTH OF THEM!)...But if that's all you can do then you need to pack one of them up, make sure your friend has an adequate cage for them or you buy one for them ASAP, make sure your friend knows their regular, daily diet, treats, cage cleaning, and sleep-schedule, etc., and GET THEM SEPARATED IMMEDIATELY BEFORE ONE OF THEM IS SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED! I know you're trying to "watch them", but you can't watch them 24 hours a day, and it only takes literally one second for one of them to lose an eye, have their entire beak ripped-off (this happens quite often, one of the most common injuries resulting from two Budgies fighting is one of them getting their entire upper-beak ripped off of their face, and they don't grow-back, so the poor thing has a literal hole in it's face for the rest of it's life and can no longer eat seeds!)...They actually also quite often end-up ripping each other's heads off, no joke or exaggeration, Budgies who are aggressive/violent and fighting don't ever stop, whether it's due to hormones or due to them just simply hating each other, or jealousy over sharing a territory (their cage), it won't ever stop and will progressively escalate a little each day until one day you come home and find something horrible and traumatic, and that might cost you thousands of dollars at the Avian Vet...So you can't keep them living together any longer no matter how you try to "watch them...And just to point something out to you, if there is any way you can find the little space for a second table-top cage so you can keep them (HANG IT FROM THE CEILING! OR BUY A LITTLE WIRE FLOOR-STAND TO HANG IT FROM!), they might be totally fine once you separate them into their own, individual cages because their aggression/fighting might be due to jealousy of territory sharing. If you separate them into their own cages but keep them in the same room so they can see each other and talk to each other, they may likely be totally fine when they are allowed out of their respective cages together, they might snuggle and preen each other...Then again, they might try to kill each other when outside of their own, individual cages too, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY IT...

****However, if you really just can't make room for a second table-top/hanging cage to separate them into immediately, then you absolutely need to get them separated somehow immediately before something horribly bad happens...And if your friend will take one of them, then please make that happen immediately...

But here's the issue...You're already talking about going out and buying ANOTHER BUDGIE TO PUT INSIDE THE SAME CAGE AS THE ONE YOU KEEP???? WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING THAT???? Seriously, again I'm not trying to be mean, rude, nasty, or a smart ass, but trying to get you thinking about his situation...You already know you can't find room for a second cage in your current apartment, right? So you actually are thinking about going out, buying another new Budgie, bringing it home, and putting it inside of the same cage as the Budgie you already have??? Even though you are having to separate the second Budgie you have now because they are fighting and going to badly hurt or kill each other??? Think about that for a second...

***Your 2 current Budgies are not fighting because they are both females. Not at all. And going out and buying a new, second Budgie that's a male to put in with the one female you keep is likely going to end exactly the same way as this situation is, or even possibly much more tragically. So the ONLY WAY you can bring home a second bird of any species, sex, size, etc. is if you also buy a second cage at the same time as you buy the second bird and you make room in your apartment to put the second bird in. That's it, that's the only way you can do this...YOU CANNOT EVER, EVER, EVER, JUST BRING HOME A SECOND BIRD/PARROT AND PUT THEM RIGHT INTO THE CAGE THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE A CURRENT BIRD IN!!!

And that is for multiple reasons...In addition to the fact that they don't know each other at all and they might kill each other in a matter of seconds after you put the new bird inside of your current bird's cage, but there is also the fact that you have to do a 30-day quarantine of any new bird you bring home, in a totally other room behind a closed door away from your current bird, just in-case the bird you bring home has some horrible Avian Viral Disease like Parrot Beak-and-Feather Disease (PBFD), Avian Borna-Virus (ABV), etc. And that's forgetting bacterial and/or fungal/yeast infections, mites infestations (very common with Budgies), worms and other parasites, etc. So you can't just bring home a new bird and throw it in the same cage as your current bird, more-so because you have no idea how they are going to interact with each other, what type of relationship/bond they will have, how they are going to react about sharing a territory/cage, or about sharing anything else, like YOU, or your home...

Birds/Parrots for relationships with each other much like we as people do. And the fact of the matter is that you have absolutely NO IDEA what type of relationship any new bird you bring home will have with your current Budgie (the one you keep I mean). And there is absolutely NO GUARANTEE AT ALL that they will even be able to be out together out of their cages in your apartment, let alone be able to live in the same cage together, and that's after a few months of them living together and getting to know each other!!! So you obviously cannot just bring home a second bird, throw it in the same cage as your current bird, and have everything be okay. Because it will no be okay,

Two birds might love each other and want to share a cage, they might love each other but not be alright with sharing a cage/territory, they might simply tolerate each other but not really want much to do with each other, they might really dislike each other and want to stay far away from each other, they might really, really hate each other and fight any time they get close to one another, and they might hate each other so much that they aggressively go after each other and purposely try to kill each other...And you have no way at all of know how that is going to end-up, and you won't until you've done the 30-day quarantine in another room with the new bird, then you move the new bird's separate cage into the same room as your current bird and you let them see each other, talk to each other, and get to know each other over a matter of months, by letting them out under direct-supervision as often as you can to see how they get along and whether or not they form any type of bond over-time.

So the bottom-line is that unless you can fit a second adequately-sized cage in your current apartment, you will not be able to get a second bird!!! Nor should you really, because YOU are your current Budgie's Flock-Mate, her Friend, her Companion, and her Family!!! She doesn't need "a new friend" because obviously she may not want a new friend, and you'll be right back where you are now again...So just concentrate on forming a bond with whichever Budgie you decide to keep, work on training her, taming her, teaching her Recall-Training and Target Training, and why not even order her an Aviator-Harness and spend a good couple of months training her daily to accept putting it on and wearing it, and then you can take her out with you places??? Budgies have the intelligence of a 2-3 year-old human child, and they are extremely affectionate, snuggly, cuddly, loving little parrots, ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE ONLY A SINGLE, LONE BUDGIE!!! That's the perfect situation to make your relationship and bond with whatever Budgie you keep really special...My first Budgie, who my mom bred/hand-raised and gave me when I was 6 years-old, was my best-friend in the world, he went everywhere with me, he was my only pet, and he lived to be 18 years and 9 months old!!! He went away to college with me!!! So that's the kind of relationship you COULD HAVE with whatever Budgie you keep, and you'll not have to worry about again having 2 birds in your apartment that hate each other and are hurting each other...

*****Also, just an FYI that I don't think you've thought about either, is the fact that if you go out and buy a second MALE Budgie to immediately put in the SAME CAGE as your current FEMALE Budgie, if they do happen to actually like each other and bond with each other, YOU WILL HAVE A CHRONIC BREEDING ISSUE, as well as a probably CHRONIC EGG-LAYING FEMALE, which unfortunately is extremely common once a Female Budgie starts laying eggs, whether they are fertile or not...So forgetting that you obviously have no room at all for a Brooder or multiple weaning-cages for babies, which you'd have no choice at all about getting and having, but you could very well end-up with your Female becoming a chronic egg-layer, which is very harmful to their health and often ends in their early, sudden death from either Egg-Binding or Malnutrition/Calcium and/or Phosphorous Deficiency...So bringing home a second MALE Budgie to put right immediately inside your current Female's cage is a horrible idea for many, many reasons...

 

[BlooBloo]

While I do very much appreciate all the advice, please slow down a little bit.

That was pretty exhausting to read and more than a little condescending the way you put it.

I do come here for advice, I also speak to local bird keepers and friends who've had birds, so I am spreading out wide to get as much info as I can get to make sure my little guys have the best life possible. I got advice that a male would work better and I'll look into it a bit more, but probably start with leaving the girl alone to see how she takes to it.

I had a pair of budgies before when I was young and they were very close to my heart, both of them died in my hand so I've gotten my own experience with them although I wasn't as informed back then and am making a much greater effort to do so now. I had the female for two years before introducing the male and it was a very painless process, they got along well but for some brief bickering. My female also never laid eggs and I know of several methods to discourage or otherwise dampen this potential issue should it come up. Not that I'll entirely rely on this experience.

I don't have the opportunity to immediately separate them short of putting one of them in my much too small transport cage and I have been mindful to watch over them and break up any fights. It's worked, they won't get as physical anymore but they still bicker and I am under a strong impression those two just don't get along the way I see them putting up a fuss about everything around the cage lately. I have asked other people too and the signs as of now don't seem as threatening to their health but it's something to watch for.

I would consider keeping her alone but I do have work and school so I am out during the days, I don't want her to be lonely so trying to hook her up with a mate is a serious consideration. And I very much care for the one due to be re-housed too, my friend is new to birds so I mean to help him set everything up as soon as we both can.

Onto my previous question specifically though, could there be risks of the birds being depressed from separation despite their bickering? Can becoming alone be a shock for them?

 

[EllenD]

I apologize, and that's exactly why I said right from the start that "I wasn't saying it to be mean, nasty, etc.", but rather wanted to get you thinking about why you just absolutely CANNOT bring home any other new bird and just stick it inside of the same cage with your current bird. Period. If any of your bird-keeping friends tell you that you can, then they aren't very knowledgeable at all, because that would be totally eliminating any type of Quarantine-Period first of all, which should be at least 30-days in not only a separate cage but a totally separate room/air-space...And that's not even touching on the fact that 2 birds who just meet each other CANNOT just be forced to share a cage right away, that will almost always end in an injured or dead bird. So I hope you don't attempt to bring home any other bird, regardless of sex or species, until you can get a second cage...


***I already answered your question in my post above, sorry it was too long, but it answered all of your questions...NO, birds do not become "depressed" from separation, even if they love each other and are bonded very closely, As long as YOU are able to provide them with enough hours of out-of-cage-time each day and YOU are their Flock-mate/friend. If you separate two parrots who are extremely closely bonded and have been together for a long time, they'll certainly notice the other is gone and they will go through a period of adjustment, but they are Flock-Animals, and as being Flock-Animals they do possess a lot of their innate, natural instincts...And in the wild, birds lose Flock-Mates every single day...Now a tame parrot raised in-captivity will need some time to get used to their mate not being around if they were closely bonded, but it will be short and it's in no way a depression, and if you step-up and become their Flock-mate, they'll be happy as can be, your bond with them will become stronger, etc.

Your birds are going to be much, much happier once they are separated, because they are 2 birds who don't particularly care for each other enough to share their cage/territory, yet they're being forced to share it, and when they are forced to share their cages and they don't like each other enough to do so, then this is what happens, and it only gets worse and worse until one of them is dead, especially with Budgies...So once again, please separate them immediately before something really horrible happens to one or both of them, because it's going to eventually...And they'll both be totally fine AS LONG AS you and your friend both have the time to give them at least a few hours each and every day as well as out-of-cage-time and lots of toys and foraging activities to keep them busy...

 

[ChristaNL]

I understand your dilemma: you do no want your bird to be lonely, but you also do not want two birds that can possibly kill each other.

If you have to chose between those 2: choose the (solo) live bird.

Yes, she will miss you a bit when you are not there, but you can help by prividing a lot of toys, leaving music, podcasts or tv running for her when you are not there.

(My macaw is *obsessed* with watching sports - she loooves those long distance guys on bicyles esp. not sure if it is the scenery flying by or the non-stop slow droning comments. She even ignores me when she is watching! Bad luck for me- not a watching sports-fan, but if it makes her happy...)


Good for you that you are making sure your other bird gets a great life too
(just make it happen as fast as possible)