Getting a baby vs. Adopting!

[torrap]

I just finished watching this PBS documentary, and my heart is hurting for these unwanted birds and these wonderful people who are trying to find some level of comfort for these unwanted poor birdies.
I just want to hug and say thank you to all these beautiful people who have heart the size of this planet.
I don't know how you guys feel, but I voiced my opinion before.....I think parrots have to stay in the wild.
The guy in this documentary is so right when he said that there is NO such cage that is the RIGHT size for Macaw.....only 35 sq. miles.
Some here on the forum might get upset with me....and please note I don't want to offend anybody......but I think we shouldn't buy babies and we shouldn't breed them either.....
What do you say?

 

[GaryBV]

I'm of two minds on this one - and I notice nobody is responding because I suspect people feel uncomfortable with what you said - although you do own parrots yourself. I guess as long as the species is not endangered in the wild, and can be well cared for in a home it is ok to have a parrot. Personally I handle this issue by only having small birds, Fischer Lovebirds and Pacific Parrotlets - two of each, all in very large cages. I also watched Parrot Confidential and I thought it was just terrific. But there is another issue. America's only native parrot, the Carolina Parakeet, is now extinct. If more people had kept them as pets they would not now be extinct and theoretically could be released to the wild once again. I know that every bird I have had has been gotten as adults and I would have a very hard think before ever breeding. We did once breed our Pugs and the end result was I was unable to part with them after 'raising' them, meaning I had those Pugs for their lifetimes

 

[Blueridge]

O, but it 'tis true that no bird was meant to live in a cage. For what is life worth anyway, if you can only see it between bars?
Call me a hipocrite, for I know thy will.
My birds are my passion, behind a skyless hill.
I give them my heart, yet I fear not enough,
For birds were meant to fly,
In a sky without us.

:22:


I wrote that poem. Is it good?

 

[torrap]

Thank you for responding GaryBV.
I knew it's not a very comfortable post to respond to for many people, but I feel we need to talk about it

Both of my birds are re-homes.... and one of them (DYHA) I adopted from the local rescue just about 2 weeks ago.
My original wish was to get a baby Grey I was dreaming to have for most of my life. I spent countless nights on line reading about parrots, and that's when I decided not to get a baby parrot ever.
Instead I went to volunteer in a local Rescue and Sanctuary for Exotic birds. Last March (on my first day of volunteering) my DYHA picked me as someone she likes a lot. She just started talking to me when I was vacuuming the floor there.
The other one was a CL re-home. Both of my birds had at least 3 homes before they came to me......
I would take more birds from the rescue, but I have a full time job.
I'll tell you even more.........When I got my YSA from CL, I felt so bad for her, that I seriously considered taking her to Venezuela some how, because they have a special rescue for YSAs there where they teach them how to survive in the wild and let them free. But they do it usually with babies confiscated from the smugglers. My YSA is 7 yo and was hatched in Florida. Also I don't think I'll be able to take her across the border anyway.
I know that most of the people on this forum who bought their parrots as babies are wonderful parronts, but as you could see in the documentary and I see a lot of it in the sanctuary.......there are so many unwanted birds out there........it's just sad.

 

[torrap]

O, but it 'tis true that no bird was meant to live in a cage. For what is life worth anyway, if you can only see it between bars?
Call me a hipocrite, for I know thy will.
My birds are my passion, behind a skyless hill.
I give them my heart, yet I fear not enough,
For birds were meant to fly,
In a sky without us.

:22:


I wrote that poem. Is it good?

What a GREAT poem Blueridge!!!!!!

How sad was the moment in the documentary when the baby Zon is sitting in the cage on the porch and looking through the bars at his friends flying near by. The guy who caught the bird wanted $40 for him. Oh, how I wish I could give him this money so he could open the cage......

 

[GaryBV]

I would have to say that I would prefer a rescue over a baby. Here in western Pennsylvania there I've noticed that there are quite a few larger parrots that are available in a Butler, PA rescue shelter. I generally feel ok about people having birds as long as the birds' nutritional, physical and mental needs are met. I know that when I see a bird that has plucked itself bare distresses me. My male parrotlet came to me plucked, no back feathers, no tail feathers and no wing feathers, my heart just broke. That was just earlier this year - but now, he's fully feathered, has bonded with a female, has an outstanding diet, a large Prevue F040 cage, and he's just happy as can be. Self-mutilation can be very difficult to handle so I guess I was lucky. I gave him every type of toy I could imagine, seed coated pine cones, the Wesco kabobs (LOVE THEM), corn left on the cob (he loved it), treats put into little paper boxes, organic millet sprays along with nutri-berries and avi-cakes in holders that he had to work at to get too, etc. I figured I'd try anything that used a plucking type of behavior and have it work for me, and in the end, it did. Maybe none of those things worked, maybe it was the bonding with the female, but whatever did it I'm grateful and so is the former owner. We have rescued many dogs, some very abused, one so abused she couldn't bear to be touched, but wanted to be near me all the time, sooo sad, one Boston was blind - the owners were just going to let her out on a country road! - how cruel. We currently have 5 dogs, 3 of which are rescues, one showed up as a young puppy the day after we had euthanized our old boxer, another from a young guy that didn't have the money to feed his dog, and the last one came to me from a guy that kept the dog in the basement in a windowless room - her teeth were so gnawed down from chewing at the door that they are practically nonexistent - and she is only 7. I don't know why I'm saying all this, but yeah, rescues are best. It is the most rewarding and does a genuine good.

 

[MenomaMinx]

The guy in this documentary is so right when he said that there is NO such cage that is the RIGHT size for Macaw.....only 35 sq. miles.
Some here on the forum might get upset with me....and please note I don't want to offend anybody......but I think we shouldn't buy babies and we shouldn't breed them either.....
What do you say?

Too late, I'm extraordinarily offended.

So what exactly are you going to replace my service animals with?

I only ever had 2 parrots for this purpose-- a Congo African grey and a calico macaw. Each bird serves a specific function in my functioning. What do you replace them with?

I currently find myself down a grey, and I'm suffering for it – but God forbid I find some way to get a baby bird to train up to my murdered grey's level of functioning;because apparently once all rescue parrots age out and there are no more babies, nobody's going to care or need parrots anymore, right?

I could take you on on many fronts, but this is the most obvious. You'd deny me quality-of-life because you personally decided something for my birds who've you never met and know nothing about.

I have pet birds too. Surely, I must be a monster to keep in captivity what would be eaten in the wild. I'm supposed to have someone deliver me a pair of rescued lovebirds soon. The average age in the wild is around 5 to 7 years – it's over double that in captivity.

I'm sorry you're unfamiliar with the breeding programs that are repopulating the wild, and preserving species that no longer exist in the wild.

I'm incredibly sorry you couldn't be bothered to examine the issue beyond a documentary on PBS.

The only legitimate argument I've ever heard against breeding came from mytoos.com , and that has to do with the fundamental misunderstanding of how to properly raise these birds through
each of their lifestages to keep them from going psychotic.

Yes, it's good to get a rescue bird if you can find the right one.

But also, that doesn't preclude the fact that once upon a time your rescue bird was somebody's baby that somebody else bred – thus without that, you have no bird. I wouldn't want to live in a world without parrots.That's exactly what your line of thought leads.

 

[GaryBV]

Menoma, it's not really fair of you to have a go at Torrap. She said nothing personal against you or about you, but you have made it personal, and that's not fair. She is entitled to her opinion as you are to yours, and I'm sure she felt rather emotional because she had just watched Parrot Confidential, and had a, what I'd call, a normal reaction to that. Don't be so prickly, it's not her fault if your 'service bird' was killed. I've never heard of a service bird before, but good luck with finding a new one if that is what you require.

 

[torrap]

...............I wouldn't want to live in a world without parrots.....................

If only we could ask them if they want to live with us in the cages...... :54:

I am sorry I offended you MenomaMinx, I truly didn't want to offend anybody.
But I still think it's a pretty reasonable question to ask (maybe not on this forum...) - Is it OK to have Parrots as pets?
Dogs and Cats were domesticated for a purpose, to help people.
We are making Parrots into pets purely for our enjoyment......:54:......at least most of the time (I also never heard of a service parrot before).

 

[GaryBV]

Yeah Menoma, could you educate us on what a 'service parrot' is and does? I'm very ignorant on the subject and I'd be very interested in hearing about that, if you wouldn't mind.

 

[Blueridge]

You'd deny me quality-of-life because you personally decided something for my birds who've you never met and know nothing about.

The sad thing is... a lot of people do not bother to think about their parrot's quality-of-life. They were meant to fly free, this is obvious. I have a parrot as well, but I won't argue about whether or not he would be happier in the forest. Of course he would. Yet we keep them for our own selfish desires - most of us do, atleast. I am not talking about you and your circumstances. I think that it's great that your parrot can help you, and I wish the best to you.

:21:


Edit: I'm not saying our parrots are unhappy in our care. If we know how to take care of them then of course we can supply them with great lives. My bird is my heart and I would do anything for him to be happy. I'm sure everyone on this forum is the same.

 

[Birdman666]

Most folks aren't prepared for life with a large macaw... BUT some of us are, and love them, and couldn't go without them.

BONDED goes both ways. Parrot and human.

Just as you can't separate a bonded macaw from its mate without causing severe stress, you can't just take a bird away from his or her person.

And, by the way, I did parrot rescue. There are several species I wish had never been introduced to the bird trade - M2'S BEING TOPS in my book.

NOT ALL BIRDS END UP NEEDING RESCUE...

My daughter gets my birds when I die, then my grandkids. These birds are treated like members of the family.

And, oh by the way, NONE of my birds get caged.

Some of us also know how to train them!

So, no, the answer isn't to stop the pet trade entirely. The answer is that if you get one F--in' LEARN HOW TO TAKE CARE OF IT PROPERLY!

The answer is to have some sort of permitting or avian certification process to cut down on impulse purchases by folks who don't have the slightest clue what they are getting into... or how to care for them properly.

THEN only the dedicated would apply. And they would know what they were doing! And the birds wouldn't suffer.

Don't blame the breeders for that.

But then, I am an opinionated ##### sometimes!

I didn't watch the show. I saw enough of it when I lived this!!!

 

[JerseyWendy]

...............I wouldn't want to live in a world without parrots.....................

If only we could ask them if they want to live with us in the cages...... :54:

I am sorry I offended you MenomaMinx, I truly didn't want to offend anybody.
But I still think it's a pretty reasonable question to ask (maybe not on this forum...) - Is it OK to have Parrots as pets?
Dogs and Cats were domesticated for a purpose, to help people.
We are making Parrots into pets purely for our enjoyment......:54:......at least most of the time (I also never heard of a service parrot before).

There is absolutely NOTHING offensive about your post, it was so lovingly and caringly worded, so please don't feel badly about it in the least, ok?

And it is a VERY reasonable question!!!

I, too, watched the documentary, eyes sweating and all.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Too late, I'm extraordinarily offended.
.....
I wouldn't want to live in a world without parrots.That's exactly what your line of thought leads.

Well that is truly just TOO bad because Torrap said she meant no offense to anyone. Perhaps YOU shouldn't have jumped down her throat like that.

You wouldn't live in a world without parrots.....there ARE still wild parrots out there, just unfortunately not nearly as many as there used to be.

 

[getwozzy]

Woah. Woah. Woah. Slow your roll. Take a chill pill people. Someone's opinion is just that- an opinion. A thought. No need to take it personally and start bashing each other.

Parrots aren't the only species that suffer from humanity's ignorance and inability to understand and care for such complex creatures. Humans are materialistic and selfish creatures- they see something fascinating and think there's no harm in bringing it home.

There are some of us humans that have more common sense than others, and understand that parrots *require* a lot more care and are much, much more complex than cats and dogs.

UNFORTUNATELY, man's need to obtain and "domesticate" every living thing will not end. Ever. So, in my OPINION...parrots will always be in the pet trade regardless of their numbers in the wild. And yes- there are conservation programs to repopulate certain species, like the Tucuman amazon (Jackie)- whose home territory is being destroyed. Tucumans aren't "endangered", yet. But this didn't stop me from loving or owning *my* Tucuman. Even though he passed away, he opened my eyes to the world of parrots and their complexities. And I most certainly do not feel guilty or ashamed for owning an exotic pet or purchasing my baby galah from a breeder....because I know how to take care of it! It's the people who DON'T do their research, they DON'T understand their feathered friend has the mental capacity of a human toddler, they DON'T "get it". Those people are the ones who should never own a parrot.

I am ALL for adopting a parrot in need of home, but I also don't see anything shameful in **properly** breeding and buying/selling healthy babies.

 

[Zumaria]

The way I see it is, people are going to do it unless the law forbids it. The appeal of exotic pets will always be there - not just parrots but also tigers, alligators, bears, monkeys.

If it is going to happen I might as well adopt one that is currently stuffed into a shelter because she can never be released in to the wild but I can give her a good home.

As far as babies.../sigh. Its true, parrots are meant to be wild, but I know some pretty happy domestically bred parrots too. Ignorance is bliss - they don't know what their life is supposed to be like.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Ok, here is my opinion about this. This will not be short, I apologize ahead of time.

If I had the experience and knowledge 15 years ago that I have now, I would ONLY adopt an unwanted parrot.

3 out of 4 of my fids came to me as babies. 2 of them I hand reared myself (the Amazons). I watched Niko grow from 2 months and up. Ripley came to me at 18 months (he was raised in a bird store).

I consider myself extremely lucky because my big macs get along well with each other, and so do my 2 Amazons. So all of my fids have the opportunity (and LOTS of it) to interact with their own kind. Additionally I spent a whole lot of one on one time with them, and I truly feel they love me. No, I KNOW they love me, they show it to me each and every day. Heck, they even tell me. So IMVHO I am part of their flock, and I am honored and humbled to be in that position.

There are no ifs and or buts about what is happening to so many parrots in the wild, South America for example. Deforestation IS declining the parrot population in the wild. Shall we look at how many Amazons have become extinct alone over the past 3 decades? And the numbers keep rising.

Modern civilizations are trying their best to have their voices heard, to help these parrots, however, foreign politics don't always allow our voices to be heard.

Pardon me (to those who saw the film last night), I forgot the name of the YN Amazon, the one who eventually ended up staying with the friend who also had a YN. When the friend's bird starting screaming and yelling "NO...NOOOO..." as they were taking his newly found friend back home, my tear ducts worked in overtime. They turned to happy tears when the couple decided they wouldn't separate those 2 and ended up leaving their YN with their friend.

Looking into the eyes of the many cockatoos at the rescue triggered even more sweating eyes.

I truly believe that the vast majority of us (members of bird forums) care a GREAT deal for our beloved fid(s) and go above and beyond compared to what SO many other parrot guardian/owners would EVER dream of doing. No, no...I'm not saying that non forum members don't care for their fids, I'm saying that there are still too many misinformed/uniformed/uncaring folk who have a parrot/parrots.

Status symbol, conversational piece...you name it, and they are out there. We all know there are MANY people - TOO many people who end up with a bird for all the wrong reasons.

Nope...I'm still not done....sorry...but I warned you all ahead of time....:32:

I DO believe we need bird breeders. GOOD, RESPONSIBLE bird breeders. We must never allow for another bird species to become extinct, even if that means they can only be admired in captivity.

We need RULES, REGULATIONS to be not only put in place, but to be enforced, so that not every uneducated person can get their hands on a bird. Only then (IMO) will we find less unwanted bird.

Ok...off the pedestal I crawl...sorry about keeping you from your fids for so long.... :54:

 

[jugoya]

Service birds...

Can be one of two things; those that are used in the rehabilitation of people.

Or those that HELP people.. it is well documented that many animals relieve stress in humans simply by being there. But in some cases birds have been known to HELP their people.

Rebecca Skloot outlines why many people are upset about the pending law. Sometimes less familiar animals make better helpers, she tells Alex Cohen.The NPR story described how Sadie, a parrot, helps a man who suffers from bipolar disorder. The parrot can sense when he is on the verge of a psychotic episode and talk him down. Richard, a bonnet macaque monkey, helps a woman get through the day without debilitating panic attacks. And Panda, a miniature guide horse, guides a woman who is blind.

This is a quote from an article I have read, that interests me because that's exactly what Porter does for me. My mood is more level, more calm and relaxed with him in the house; because I NEED to be in order for his well fare.

There is talk of African greys becoming seeing eye animals as well; and I think this would be a wonderful study.

 

[Blueridge]

Service birds...

Can be one of two things; those that are used in the rehabilitation of people.

Or those that HELP people.. it is well documented that many animals relieve stress in humans simply by being there. But in some cases birds have been known to HELP their people.

Rebecca Skloot outlines why many people are upset about the pending law. Sometimes less familiar animals make better helpers, she tells Alex Cohen.The NPR story described how Sadie, a parrot, helps a man who suffers from bipolar disorder. The parrot can sense when he is on the verge of a psychotic episode and talk him down. Richard, a bonnet macaque monkey, helps a woman get through the day without debilitating panic attacks. And Panda, a miniature guide horse, guides a woman who is blind.

This is a quote from an article I have read, that interests me because that's exactly what Porter does for me. My mood is more level, more calm and relaxed with him in the house; because I NEED to be in order for his well fare.

There is talk of African greys becoming seeing eye animals as well; and I think this would be a wonderful study.

That's really cool. I never really thought about it before, but my bird has helped me a lot too. I have extreme anxiety and my quaker always makes me so calm. He is so beautiful and nice; I have yet to have a panic attack while in his presence.

He helped me through problems like depression too when I was going through some tough times. Who could possibly be sad when a cute lil' birdie is plucking your mustache hairs? Not me! He makes me so happy

 

[TessieB]

Boy, this subject is as touchy as horse slaughter. Just what is it about parrots and their kin that make them so fascinating for people to watch. I went to Parrot Mountain in Tn this summer and had a blast watching the people interact with the various parrots. Kids are absolutely enthralled to have a parrot take a treat from their fingers. The only thing I didn't like about this place was the fact they openly advertised baby birds for sale.

As a person who has 'fostered' many birds, I think the responsibility should rest on the breeder. Breeders, be responsible for your stock and stop breeding for a profit. Make sure your customers (who should be a client who can return the bird if things don't work out) are well informed about the species they want to buy. Make them sign a contract stating they can return the bird if life gets in the way of bird ownership.

With all the issues of possible disease transmission and the need for quarantine, I'm well aware one can't make a profit if they do these types of services. And to be perfectly honest no human should profit from the sale of an animal.

And for those who own parrots who live in cages, make sure you give them the best. While pet birds who were raised without the knowledge of free flight, they do need to be able to follow their instincts and at least be able to spread their wings in a large cage. Be mindful of their needs, learn all you can about the bird you have, and enjoy the bit of wild in your pet bird.

To answer the question of choosing a baby over an mature bird-well I just took in two mature birds and fortunately they have a great attitude. And for the last 30 or so years I've taken in birds with less than stellar attitudes. I respect who they were and made sure they had plenty of room to spread their wings.