Hybrids?

[BirdSquawk]

What do you macaw owners think about cross breeding species? I dont quite know where i stand, i think it is important to protect the gene pool of macaws, because of the declining population in the wild, but hybrids are so pretty! What do you guys think?
:red:

 

[Mike]

I agree that they're pretty. No two look alike even when the same species are bred. The same thing holds true for temperment. One bird may be gentle and the next a maneater.

I would only get an older hybrid bird with a demonstrated temperment. With purebreds I prefer babies so I can mold the growing bird's temperment and affect their behavior.

As for the health issue of hybrids--the more diversity in the gene pool the healthier the offspring

 

[MonicaMc]

I don't own macaws, but I could go either way on the subject.

If the parents are closely enough related, then the offspring benefit from what is known as "hybrid vigor" - that is, they get the greatest amount of different genetics that they benefit from it. Same idea that mutts can be healthier than pure bred dog species (which isn't always true) due to the specific breeding that pure breds have had to attain the traits that they have.

On the flip side, if the parents are not closely enough related, it can lead to "out breeding depression" - where the offspring are not as healthy or fit as the parents. This can be anywhere from being sterile (think about mules) to physical birth defects (external as well as internal), incompatible behaviors or even high chick mortality rates.



In macaws, you really don't see very many hybrids beyond the 4th generation... and I've only heard of 1 pair of hyacinth hybrids who have reproduced - however, said hybrid offspring did not survive past the chick stage.


I am unaware if mini macaw x large conure hybrids are fertile or sterile, although I assume the offspring are fertile due to how closely related they are.


The biggest thing I am against is creating hybrids that look like purebreds. I've seen some catalina and harlequin hybrids (possibly even a miligold) that looked near identical to a pure B&G... (identical to the untrained eye) not to mention the military x buffon hybrids.

 

[Karigan]

Pet breeders I think should be allowed in moderation. I mean, they aren't going to be released; they have no chance in the wild. The only ish on the matter is if the population drops so low that there is a call for pets as breeders, in which case we'd better have enough purebreds out there. Cross species, I'm not so sure about due to health concerns, but even there if the offspring were proven to be without problems, than maybe that would be okay.

 

[MonicaMc]

Uhm.... not true about hybrids in the wild...

'Natural' hybrids/hybrid swarms (native habitat)
Crimson Rosella - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Flickr: MFids' stuff tagged with musk / Hybrid Lorikeet | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

'Unnatural' hybrids (city parrots not in their native habitat)
Flickr: Search City Parrots' photostream
cherry head conure telegraph hill - Flickr: Search (some hybrids in this flock)
Parrots - California Parrots - Southern California Wild Parrots (hybrid amazons in southern California - some photos seen in CityParrots images on Flickr)


Oh, and there are wild hybrid cockatoos as well... although no websites dedicated specifically to the hybrid cockatoos... you can find many images on the web.

 

[Karigan]

I meant that hand raised pets probably wouldn't survive, if you were talking to me

 

[Thingamagigs]

If the parents are closely enough related, then the offspring benefit from what is known as "hybrid vigor" - that is, they get the greatest amount of different genetics that they benefit from it. Same idea that mutts can be healthier than pure bred dog species (which isn't always true) due to the specific breeding that pure breds have had to attain the traits that they have.

Thats completely different... a hybrid of two macaws is on the species level... where as all breeds of dogs are the same species.

Whats more, hybrid vigour does not apply to dogs unless it is a breed with a unique breed specific inherited disease (wobbler's syndrome in weims etc). And it only applies to the first generation cross!
The term related to dogs was coined specifically by an idiot plant grower here in Australia (Don Burke, of Burkes backyard fame) who thought he would stick his nose into dog breeding and promote "designer breeds" as healthy due to hybrid vigour. He applied the hybrid vigour of plant growing to the canine species. The result was a flood of puppy farmers breeding mutts for the pet market... unintelligent breeding which led to a flood of health issues such as misaligned jaws, spinal issues, coat issues and eye issues... because the incorrect and over simplified theory of hybrid vigour applies to simple Mendelian traits and NOT polygenic factors such as jaw and skull shape, back length, coat type, eye size and shape.
The most common Mendelian diseases affect pretty much all breeds and crossing a breed with PRA issues with another likely to have PRA issues gets you no where. What complicates it more is that some conditions which appear recessive are actually polygenic or occasionally cumulative (hip dysplasia). What gets you a healthy dog is intelligent breeding and health testing. Not crossing two breeds

In birds, hybrid vigour (on the cross species level) is more true than in dogs. But hybrids can also have health issues of their own. It is more sensible when considering health to source unrelated birds. However, recessive conditions can pop up in an unrelated cross as easily as if you breed two related animals.
Inbreeding is the only way to eradicate recessive health issues. Then outcrossing to a similarly bred line to keep genetic diversity.

On topic again I am not against hybrids for the pet market but think that any excuses towards the idea they are healthier is a dangerous rumour that needs to be cut short. It already compromised the dog world in a way we will never be able to curb (it created a huge puppy farmer trade here in Australia and Don Burkes veterinarian had to go public for damage control years later). Hybrids should not be reintroduced back into the breeding population and should be kept strictly as pets.

 

[Thingamagigs]

And yes... hybrids occur naturally in the wild in all kinds of animals.

Where they are subspecies they are referred to as intergrades. They most certainly survive in the wild. Galah/corella hybrids are common enough that you aren't surprised when you see a beautiful pastel pink galah in a group of wild galahs. I often wonder why the hybrids commonly choose to hang out with galahs though, rather than with corellas.

 

[MonicaMc]

I meant that hand raised pets probably wouldn't survive, if you were talking to me

As I understand it, the hybrid cockatoos are the result of pet cockatoos escaping and joining a wild flock... could be wrong though. Have heard that wild flocks of cockatoos are learning to talk, so when you go to a park in Australia occupied with 'toos, you might hear them talking [human speech] from the trees! LOL

Thats completely different... a hybrid of two macaws is on the species level... where as all breeds of dogs are the same species.

I'm aware. =) I know it's bad to compare dogs to parrots, but at least with dogs, people can relate! And I was thinking of illnesses such as hip displasia where some species are more prone to it than others... so breeding a dog with a 30% chance of hip displasia to a dog breed not known for hip displasia will result in mutts with a lesser chance of hip displasia than the parent dog with the chance of it. And yes, I'm also aware hybrid vigor is strongest in first generation offspring... but this is assuming you breed said animal back to one of the parent species.

Imagine the potential hybrid vigor in a 3 or 4 species hybrid!


Most anti-hybrid people are of the belief that hybrid parrots have all sorts of health problems and should not be bred. This is simply false! Yes, it's true to a degree, but it's also false because they don't understand genetics and how well they work.



Short and simple, I'm against the creation of hybrids! But if it's going to be done, I want to see it done responsively and said hybrids sold as what they are. I frequently see mixed pairs being sold as pures species.

i.e. pairs

Mitred conure x cherry head
Sun conure x jenday
Jenday x gold cap


And I'm seeing said hybrids, typically sunday conures and the mitred x cherry head (or red head hybrids in general) being sold as pure birds. I hate it!

The excuses I get from these people? "The person I bought this bird from told me it was this species" - therefore the person who sold them this bird is "obviously right" and they aren't creating hybrids! *major facepalm*

I'm not even going into the subspecies hybrids which also annoy me! The only subspecies people care about are those found in eclectus. Any other species and most people don't care! (amazons being a bit of an exception). Green cheek conures. Mitreds. Blue crown conures. Senegals. Sulphur crested cockatoos. These birds all have subspecies, not to mention all the others unmentioned. Many of them are being hybridized unknowingly.



After all is said and done, yes I'm still fascinated by hybrids! In fact, even though I do not own a hybrid, I've created a group of hybrid parrot photos! And I'm always looking to add more of birds I haven't seen before! Or those I simply don't have photos of!
Flickr: Hybrid Parrots

 

[lene1949]

I don't own macaws, but I could go either way on the subject.

If the parents are closely enough related, then the offspring benefit from what is known as "hybrid vigor" - that is, they get the greatest amount of different genetics that they benefit from it. Same idea that mutts can be healthier than pure bred dog species (which isn't always true) due to the specific breeding that pure breds have had to attain the traits that they have.

On the flip side, if the parents are not closely enough related, it can lead to "out breeding depression" - where the offspring are not as healthy or fit as the parents. This can be anywhere from being sterile (think about mules) to physical birth defects (external as well as internal), incompatible behaviors or even high chick mortality rates.



In macaws, you really don't see very many hybrids beyond the 4th generation... and I've only heard of 1 pair of hyacinth hybrids who have reproduced - however, said hybrid offspring did not survive past the chick stage.


I am unaware if mini macaw x large conure hybrids are fertile or sterile, although I assume the offspring are fertile due to how closely related they are.


The biggest thing I am against is creating hybrids that look like purebreds. I've seen some catalina and harlequin hybrids (possibly even a miligold) that looked near identical to a pure B&G... (identical to the untrained eye) not to mention the military x buffon hybrids.

Re Dogs: Are mutts hybrids? I thought they were cross breds?

 

[Aims]

Corella's and Galahs have been seen in the wild as a joint flock and have been know to breed together in the wild. I actually saw a documentary about it recently.

 

[Thingamagigs]

Re Dogs: Are mutts hybrids? I thought they were cross breds?

That is exactly right Its a shame don burke couldn't figure out that simple fact before opening his mouth and causing a puppy mill boom!

Aims... I have seen the hybrids in the wild I would own a galah/corella hybrid.

 

[MonicaMc]

Re Dogs: Are mutts hybrids? I thought they were cross breds?

That depends on who you ask... although hybrid and crossbred more or less mean the same thing...
List of Hybrid Dogs, Designer Dog, Hybrid Dog, Designer Dogs

hy·brid

1. Of mixed character; composed of mixed parts
   - Mexico's hybrid postconquest culture
2. Bred as a hybrid from different species or varieties
   - a hybrid variety
   - hybrid offspring

cross·breed

1. An animal or plant produced by mating or hybridizing two different species, breeds, or varieties
   - a crossbreed Labrador
   
2. Produce (an animal or plant) in this way
   - a crossbred puppy
   
3. Hybridize (a breed, species, or variety) with another
   
4. (of an animal or plant) Breed with a different breed, species, or variety

I wasn't implying that mutts are hybrids, only stating something about mixing dog breeds and the resulting offspring.

 

[Klaery]

Bad idea in my books. Anybody who has had anything to do with the reptile hobby will understand why as they are well and truly down that route and because of it have lost the purity of many locality types, subspecies and species.

This is just starting to happen in the reptile scene here in Australia and there is a massive push trying to stop it going the way it did elsewhere. Particularly because animals are not allowed to be taken in or out of Australia.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Let me direct everyone over here....please

http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/22617-why-some-people-against-hybrids.html

The topic of HYBRIDS opens up a can of worms and should be handled with the UTMOST caution

 

[Thingamagigs]

Bad idea in my books. Anybody who has had anything to do with the reptile hobby will understand why as they are well and truly down that route and because of it have lost the purity of many locality types, subspecies and species.

This is just starting to happen in the reptile scene here in Australia and there is a massive push trying to stop it going the way it did elsewhere. Particularly because animals are not allowed to be taken in or out of Australia.

JAGS!!!!!!!!!!!

Need I say more.

This is exactly what this thread brought to my mind as well Klaery. If people could be trusted to keep their mutts to themselves or be honest about their origins it would be fine... but the whole "Albino MD" incident is a really good example of where the reptile world is going!
I was very vocal about Jags initially, it got me turfed off the forums. I was right! Everyone has been recently encouraged to breed anything to everything. To the point pure and localities are becoming rare. And in accordance with rare, you would expect pricey. Nope, still not pricey which does not bode well, its a good indicator the market is trending away from pure and localities... we will be left with nothing pure soon!

Western Galahs are as different from Easterns as they are from cockatiels (maybe an over exaggeration but you get my point )... yet I have seen many breeders putting them together. Maybe its my history with reptiles, but it really gets my goad

 

[Alwese]

My first macaw "Doogie" was a gift to me from my family doctor and started my whole involvement with macaws. When I got him he was 4 and he is 19 now. He is a Catalina Hybrid which is a cross between a Scarlet and a Blue and Gold. He has never had any diseases and is very powerful and intelligent. I do not ever intend to breed him and he has been a wonderful pet. I have seen on the internet third generation Catalina hybrids so I do not believe all of them are sterile, but that is a possiblility. Other Catalinas I have seen have a clearer beak color. Here are two pictures of him: Click on the thumbnails to enlarge.

 

[Thingamagigs]

I wish my doctor gave me macaws!

 

[Aims]

Alwese ~ Doogie looks lovely. Sounds it too. I would also love my Dr to give me a Macaw.

I personally don't have anything against hybrids as long as it doesn't harm the birds or cause any effects to their health and they are not being released into the wild, I don't see the harm in it. Some birds do interbreed (not sure if thats the word, but my brain fog is at its worst today..Lol) in the wild, like I stated in an above post.

 

[Karigan]

There are some absolutely beautiful hybirds around, I admit they are super tempting!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsuOvCMTML8&feature=related]Yellow Camelot hybrid macaw parrots - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj9hs6_iCjI&feature=player_embedded]Hand fed baby Blue and Gold Macaws for Sale - YouTube[/ame]


Scarlet x Shamrock