Last bit of crop emptying really slow

[Merv]

I am currently handrearing a B&G macaw who is about 7 to 8 weeks old.
A few days ago her crop had some trouble emptying and i had to go 18 hours without feeding the bird in order for the crop to empty, it wasnt full but it was just the last little bit which would not pass through.
I gave mixture of water, oil and apple cider vinegar to help with digestion during that time.
Luckily her crop was emptying a lot faster the next day and i was feeling confident it was fine now.
But for some reason she will still digest the food just right up until the last little bit which will take quite a while...
Its really not a lot but i can feel that its there.
Might this be the result of an overstretched crop? What do you guys think?
I made an appointment with the vet for next week but i really doubt they'll find anything.
The bird is still active and not giving me any sign of weakness or illnes by just observing it.
She holds her head up, walks and is flapping her wings.
Also like being fed, no loss of appetite.

 

[noodles123]

I don't know much about this, but I know that this can cause bacterial or fungal infections if not resolved.
Could the mixture have been too thick? Is it possible that the bird was slightly dehydrated? Have you considered adding a probiotic or digestive enzymes to the mixture?---do consult a vet first...

 

[ChristaNL]

CAV
CAV
CAV
CAV
CAV
YESTERDAY! not next week



(I am sorry- but I am going to be somewhat direct and untactfull(er) )


I do not think pumping a baby full of laxative is a constructive way of dealing with an issue.



just my feelings on this matter:

That bird is waaaaaaaay to young to not be around it's parents -(even Sunny was not sold by her breeder untill she was a solid 8 weeks - and that was when it was still legal to do so, nowadays it's illegal and considered animal-abuse here).
So now you have decided to be a parront - take responsability and get your bird the best care there is, that means running to a certified avian vet every single time you even suspect something is wrong.
You can ef up a baby-bird for life faster than you can say pina-colada.


I have no idea if you do this for a living or if this is your first time handrearing anything -- so I do not mean to offend you or put you down, but that bird needs a back-up team asap.
(lucky for you a part of that team is right here, but always, always have your CAV on speeddail)

 

[itzjbean]

I would just like to share this link with you. Please give it a read.

So you bought an unweaned baby...

What have you been heating the temperature of the formula to? Are you keeping your baby weighed on a daily basis? Is your mac gaining weight? Do you feed the 10% amount recommended to feed at each feeding? Have you begun to offer other foods to entice your macaw to begin weaning?

I know you own two other macaws, but its crop problems like this that can and will be fatal to a baby bird if done incorrectly. Not sure what your experience hand-feeding is but weaning macaws is a very difficult and daunting task! I agree with the posts above -- CAV now to assess the crop, could be sign of an infection that will only continue if no medical attention is given.

Next time, please consider letting the breeder wean the baby for you completely so you don't have to worry/deal with these scary issues.

 

[EllenD]

First of all, Itzjbean hit it right on the head, are you making sure you're not feeding formula cooler than 104 degrees F and no warmer than 110 degrees F? Any cooler will result in the formula spoiling in the crop and growing bacteria, fungi, etc., and hotter will cause crop-burn and infection...

***However, you are aware that their crops only need to FULLY-EMPTY once every 24-hours, right? And that is typically after their last nightly feeding and when you look at their crop in the morning first thing before their first feeding (depending on age, but at 8 weeks you're past the every 3-4 hour feeding, or should be)....It's perfectly fine if in-between feedings during the day if there is a very small amount of formula in the crop, that's completely normal. Again, their crops must fully-empty once every 24-hours, but not after every feeding, there can and usually will be a very small amount of formula left in the bottom of their crop between feedings during the day...And this is exactly the issue with an inexperienced person hand-feeding an unweaned baby bird, they don't know when something is normal, when something is a little off, when something is off but is not a big deal and can be treated at home, or when something is an emergency...How could you if you have not had years of experience? It's very much like a lay-person trying to treat medical conditions at home, with a total lack of medical education or training...It always ends badly...and as Itzjbean already wisely stated, properly Abundance-Weaning a Macaw is an extremely daunting task, not at all like properly Abundance-Weaning a Budgie, Cockatiel, Conure, or even an Amazon...

That being said, if your bird has a sour-smell coming from her mouth/beak, if she is acting lethargic, sleeping more than usual, vomiting/regurgitating anything at all, is constantly fluffed-up, shaking, or refusing formula completely, then you may have an issue...But if the only issue you're seeing is that there is a tiny amount of formula in the crop in-between feedings and the crop isn't completely empty before the next feeding, that's normal...If first thing in the morning the crop isn't completely empty, then there's an issue (assuming she is going at least 6-8 hours at night without a feeding at this point)...It takes a good 6-8 hours for their crops to completely empty, so obviously if you're feeding schedule at this point is, what, every 4-5 hours?, then the crop will not have time to fully empty...

***Now, if her crop is really full at the time of her next feeding, like very little to no formula is emptying, then you've got an issue...But that's not what you describe, so I'm assuming you're just experiencing the normal bit of formula that is in the bottom of the crop between the daytime feedings...And this is fine with a total lack of any other issues, signs, or symptoms...

****I'm not saying this to be nasty, rude, etc., but rather as an experienced breeder and hand-feeder trying to help you, so please take this as constructive-criticism:

It's extremely difficult to hand-feed a baby bird, let alone such a young Macaw, Cockatoo, etc. There are soooooo many things that can and do go wrong, and it doesn't sound to me like you have much experience hand-feeding/hand-raising baby birds, or much education/knowledge on the topic...That's not an insult, just an observation as you didn't know that this was normal...And also an observation of how dangerous what you are doing is with no experience...So my main question for you is going to be have you already found and contacted a Certified Avian Vet (not an "Exotics" Vet, that is not the same thing) and taken your baby in for a wellness-exam since you started hand-feeding him? This should be done the minute you bring-home such a young baby bird, as first of all, any breeder, pet shop, etc. that would sell you/adopt-out/give you such a young baby bird is totally irresponsible and only cares about making money and getting the babies out as soon as they can to save money and time. So you have no idea what may be wrong with the baby, what bacterial/fungal/viral/parasitic infections he may have, etc. And not only that, a Certified Avian Vet can teach you one-on-one, hand's-on, in-person the proper way to not only do the actual hand-feeding of the baby, but also will teach you the proper way to mix-up the formula, the different consistencies the formula should be depending on the baby's age, the proper and most efficient way to keep the formula always between 104-110 degrees F while you're feeding the baby, and most importantly what the things are that you should do when you encounter certain issues that often happen...You can't just willy-nilly give a baby bird ACV, Alka-Seltzer, etc. without knowing the correct quantities, the correct dilutions in the formula of the ACV (it will burn their crop's if it's too concentrated), etc. There are many, many, many little tips and "tricks" that experienced breeders/hand-raisers of birds just know because they learn them over time, from their mentor's that they were taught by, etc., and you cannot learn these things from reading things on the internet or from a book, or even from a forum of experienced breeders such as this one...There is absolutely no replacement for hand's-on, direct hand-feeding experience...and any Certified Avian Vet can and will be more than happy and should want to teach you for the sake of both the bird and yourself, as so many times in this situation the baby bird dies from any number of common issues...

****The other thing that you may or may not know anything about is the proper weaning-process, and with a Macaw or Cockatoo specifically, if you do not properly Abundance-Wean them, you're going to have not only physical health issues, but severe, severe behavioral and psychological issues. This happens with even experienced breeders (usually the irresponsible ones who want to rush the weaning-process, and any who practice "Force-Weaning")...In fact, we just had a very experienced member have to surrender her bird to a sanctuary due to his severe neurological issues resulting from him not being properly Abundance-Weaned by his breeder that she got him from...So you really need to start reading everything you can about Abundance-Weaning a baby Macaw, specifically the proper age that you need to START the process, which is much earlier than the time he'll be fully-weaned, obviously, and even before he fully-fledges. You must start the Abundance-Weaning process, in a properly set-up Weaning-Cage or "Starter Cage", very early with a Macaw. This is the only way they will properly learn, at their own paces, how to play with toys, how to eat food out of different containers, how to perch on many different surfaces, how to climb, how to drink water from different containers, basically how to properly interact with their surroundings, no matter what they are, and how to properly eat many different types of solid foods and drink water from any type of container/dish/bowl. And many baby birds have no idea how to climb, how to perch on anything but a plastic, uniform perch or wooden dowel, how to do anything but sit/stand and pick at food...

I don't know the situation in-which you got your baby, it's not your fault if a breeder or pet shop sold you this unweaned baby that is far too young to be in it's new home, but it angers me sooooo much, especially being a breeder who did it the right way, and knowing all of the other breeders here in our community that do it the right way, and seeing that member here have to literally surrender their poor bird, which they loved dearly and tried everything they could to help him overcome the damage done by his breeder...I don't want any of this to happen to you and your bird, and I especially don't want to see you lose your baby because you're not experienced at hand-feeding/hand-raising...

I just realized I didn't ask you about what ambient temperature you're keeping him in, Itzjbean probably did, but if not, do you have your baby in a Brooder (either a proper Brooder or a homemade one in which you can control the temperature)? I don't know what a Macaw's feathering is like at 7-8 weeks old, but if he still does not have all of his down yet, then he must be kept in a Brooder at about 95 degrees F, and if he has all of his down feathers grown-in but not his outer feathers (he definitely doesn't have all of his outer feathers yet), then he needs to be kept in a Brooder with a constant ambient temperature around 85 degrees...This is not optional at all, as this will cause him to not be able to properly digest his formula just as quickly as feeding him formula that isn't between 104-110 degrees will, and will absolutely result in slow-crop, crop-stasis, and a potentially-fatal fungal and/or bacterial infection in his crop and throughout his entire GI Tract...

If you need any help at all setting-up a homemade Brooder, getting his formula to stay between 104-110 degrees F, setting-up a proper Weaning-Cage, etc., please just post any and all questions, PM me, Itzjbean, or SilverSage, all are very experienced bird breeders and hand-feeders, or just PM one of the Mods and they will forward your questions to the appropriate people...Anything we can help you and your little guy with we will, as again, this isn't your fault, just please be sure to not buy/take-in any more unweaned birds, it's just not worth the extreme risk...

Also, if you need help finding an experienced CAV we can definitely help you with that, as there are some very good ones in the LA area, one in-particular that I'm aware of who owns his own Hyacinth Macaws and is just wonderful and soooo knowledgeable....










;

 

[EllenD]

Merv, by the way, please do not give your baby any more "oil", you're going to do way more harm than good here...What kind of "oil" did you give your bird, and how much? He can't properly digest certain "oils" Merv, and as I already mentioned, you can't just give them Apple Cider Vinegar without knowing exactly how much to give them based on their age, weight, and exactly what the issue is, without diluting it in the formula, never straight or in water, and knowing exactly what the problem is, as ACV is not always warranted and can actually make the problem worse...Sometimes a basic-pH substance is warranted over an acidic one like the ACV, and sometimes you need to use something like Alka-Seltzer, again, it just depends on the issue, and you don't have the experience to make these decisions my friend...When in doubt and dealing with a 7-8 week-old Macaw baby, dial a Certified Avian Vet only FIRST, before giving the baby anything at all...And as I stated above, I don't think you have an issue at all, at least not in-regard to his crop not fully-emptying after every daytime feeding, as it is normal for there to be a tiny amount of formula left in the bottom of the crop between daytime feedings, and as long as the crop is emptying fully at least once every 24-hours, usually overnight as it will have the proper time to fully empty overnight, then this is not an issue...So you've most-likely been giving your bird things that he doesn't need, as well as things that will not only do nothing, but that will potentially make him very sick...

****Just to add something, giving a baby bird any type of "laxative" oils, such as Mineral Oil, Castor Oil, etc., will not do anything at all to empty their crop, as if a baby bird is suffering from slow-crop, crop-stasis, etc., it's due to a reason that has nothing to do with "clearing his GI Tract out", which is what I'm assuming you were thinking...And more importantly and urgently Merv, giving these types of oils to a baby bird (or to people, actually), will only serve to actually block their Gastrointestinal Tracts from absorbing any and all nutrition that he is taking-in from his formula, including all vitamins, minerals, calories, fat, protein, etc. Essentially what happens is that the oil basically coats the GI Tract throughout all of the places where different nutrition is absorbed by his body, and the formula is basically excreted from his body in an almost "whole" state. This will result in the baby bird becoming malnourished, undernourished, and cause him to start losing weight, have vitamins leeched from his body, such as the calcium being leeched from his bones, etc., and is going to make the baby extremely ill, and possibly have horrible developmental issues. This is a huge deal with a 7-8 week old baby parrot, as he is growing and developing every day, and if his body cannot absorb the nutrition from the formula he's eating, it will cause him to deteriorate very quickly and pass-away before you even know what has happened...and on top of all of that, it will do nothing to help to empty his crop in the first place...So no more "oil" of any kind, or anything else for that matter. Please.

I highly suggest that you get your baby to a CAV as soon as you can, again, not an "Exotics" vet, but a Certified Avian Vet, and i know a good one in the LA area if you don't already have one...I'm telling you this because I didn't catch the "oil" thing, nor was I aware that you've been having issues with properly hand-feeding and properly "Abundance-Weaning" other unweaned babies that you have...You need some experienced help my friend, as a Macaw that is not properly Abundance-Weaned in a proper Weaning-Cage and at the correct time is going to have a plethora of psychological, behavioral, and possibly physical health issues.

Don't look at this as you failed, and please don't think that you should just be able to properly do what you've been trying to do on your own, as this process with any bird takes an experienced person to succeed...Trust me here Merv, you need some professional help, for the sake of the 7-8 week old baby Macaw that you have in your care. The last thing you want is to make a mistake and kill the baby, which can happen literally in an instant with aspiration; And just as bad is creating a situation where you have a juvenile Macaw with all kinds of psychological and behavioral issues because he was not properly Abundance-Weaned, as those issues can and do last the entire lifetime of the bird...

There's no shame in getting professional help for the sake of your bird...

 

[Merv]

Sorry for the late reply to my question!
Things are great now, the bird is totally fine.
Just to clarify a few things;
I have experience in handrearing multiple types of parrots and i've been doing conures daily for almost 1.5 years now, I just cant get a break..
I breed with them and often grab a few from the nest for handrearing (for multiple reasons)
I'm also no stranger to macaws i've done 2 b&g's, 1 gw and an illiger's before the one i have now.
I'm not really doing this for a living but i certainly make a good bit of income from this.
Becouse i'm breeding and handrearing daily i befriended a CAV who taught me some basic things and i make sure i always have some basic stuff at home like Nyastine, antibiotics, and some natural stuff like Guardian Angel, ACV, en a whole bunch of stuff by Beaphar.
I'm no vet myself but i've learned quite a bit so far and i cant just go to the vet for every small little thing that probably is nothing to worry about.

That all being said, the problem with the slow emptying crop was a broken thermometer... I found out by accident when i had to use another becouse i couldn't find my main thermometer and found out that the temperature on my main was about 5 degrees celcius higher than my other thermometer, so basicly i've been feeding too cold.
I usually feed between 40 and 42 degrees and now i've been doing 35 - 37 degrees becouse of the thermometer. I'm just happy the conures have been tolerating this a lot better than the BG macaw.

Also to explain why i've been giving ACV with a little bit of oil is not as a laxative but rather to protect the crop from possible irritations from the ACV, also i've not been filling up the crop with a lot just a few drops mixed with water and oil, Rice oil for those who were wondering.

I do want to thank you all for being worried and thinking along!

EDIT:
Also, mainly why i posted this question is becouse sometimes me or the vet might me missing a very obvious thing that other might think of. Not becouse of lack of experience or anything. i just believe that more minds might be helpfull on this since it was kind of a mystery since nothing else seemed wrong and i was sure i was doing everything right. Too bad my thermometer was broken...
Anyway thanks again!

And as far as weaning goes, there's no interest yet in eating anything on her own, but i can take a while with macaws i've learned so there's no rush.

 

[Merv]

I would just like to share this link with you. Please give it a read.

So you bought an unweaned baby...

What have you been heating the temperature of the formula to? Are you keeping your baby weighed on a daily basis? Is your mac gaining weight? Do you feed the 10% amount recommended to feed at each feeding? Have you begun to offer other foods to entice your macaw to begin weaning?

I know you own two other macaws, but its crop problems like this that can and will be fatal to a baby bird if done incorrectly. Not sure what your experience hand-feeding is but weaning macaws is a very difficult and daunting task! I agree with the posts above -- CAV now to assess the crop, could be sign of an infection that will only continue if no medical attention is given.

Next time, please consider letting the breeder wean the baby for you completely so you don't have to worry/deal with these scary issues.

I used to own 2 other macaws but lost one of them
She kept vomiting and no vet could find out why.
Turned out she had a birth defect affecting here whole digestive system and shutting down her whole digestive tract.
It was the most expensive bird i've had for the shortest of time..
Cant really help stuff like that.