Need feedback on harness training technique [video]

[chris-md]

Hi all!

I bought Parker a harness a week ago and have begun the training. We're maybe 8-10 sessions in. I wanted to post a video of my routine and have you all provide feedback on how you think I'm doing, if my approach is good, what I'm doing correct, what I could improve on.

Any feedback would be warmly welcome. I feel like we're at a critical point and don't want to caulk this up.

[ame="https://youtu.be/szewNQIH8Qs"]Feedback needed on eclectus harness training technique - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Anansi]

Hey, Chris. I think you're doing quite a bit right. Starting off with the larger loop is how I began with both Maya and Jolly. That definitely helped the process.

Your consistency with the treats is also a good thing. Forging the association between treats and the harness is pivotal. (Though I'd personally avoid using any kind of cheese as a treat, especially given how many treats are needed while harness training.)

As for advice, I'll just tell you what I'd do differently.

For one, I'd definitely back off once he starts showing signs of avoidance. Thing is, you're working on a positive association in his mind. If you are insisting when his body language clearly shows you he'd rather not, he'll eventually come to dread the sight of the harness. Remember, the goal is for him to eventually look forward to putting it on.

Another thing is the approach. I don't actually put the loop over Maya's or Jolly's heads. I just hold the loop up maybe an inch from their heads with one hand and hold the treat on the other side of the loophole with the other. This makes putting their head through the loop their idea, as opposed to something they are being made to do. This becomes especially important for when you proceed to the next stage, which will be to use the actual head loop. You'll find that placing that significantly smaller loop over their heads will be far more problematic, as Parker will likely find that FAR more intimidating. But if he's doing it himself, he'll be more comfortable. He'll know he's doing it at his pace.

Once he's reliably sticking his head through, you can start gradually increasing the interval between him doing as you've asked and you giving the reward.

Another thing I took to doing was mixing it up a bit. So first I'd harness train, and then I'd have them work on a trick they've already learned, and then we'd go back to the harness.

For instance, with Jolly I'll have him stick his head through the loop. Once he's done that and gotten his reward, I'll walk across the room and have him fly over to me for another treat. And then I'll come back and work with the harness again. Helps keep things fresh and interesting. (And with a second bird in the mix, it gets even better. Because you alternate between them, training one and then the other. This is good because the bird who's waiting "in queue" is eagerly anticipating your working with them, next.)

And the last thing, I don't know whether you're doing this or not, but time your session for when he's at his hungriest. (Not food deprivation or anything. Just training maybe 30 minutes or so before lunch or dinner.) That's when he'll be at his most motivated.

Hope this helps.

 

[chris-md]

Stephen, thank you so much!!! So valuable, just what I was hoping for. Let me chunk this out.

Your consistency with the treats is also a good thing. Forging the association between treats and the harness is pivotal. (Though I'd personally avoid using any kind of cheese as a treat, especially given how many treats are needed while harness training.)

That was my concern in choosing cheese. But cheese is basically the only thing he will rip my face apart to try to get to. Maybe now that the initial association has been made, I can find something else to use. But there's nothing else that gets him so motivated.

For one, I'd definitely back off once he starts showing signs of avoidance. Thing is, you're working on a positive association in his mind. If you are insisting when his body language clearly shows you he'd rather not, he'll eventually come to dread the sight of the harness. Remember, the goal is for him to eventually look forward to putting it on.

Another thing is the approach. I don't actually put the loop over Maya's or Jolly's heads. I just hold the loop up maybe an inch from their heads with one hand and hold the treat on the other side of the loophole with the other. This makes putting their head through the loop their idea, as opposed to something they are being made to do. This becomes especially important for when you proceed to the next stage, which will be to use the actual head loop. You'll find that placing that significantly smaller loop over their heads will be far more problematic, as Parker will likely find that FAR more intimidating. But if he's doing it himself, he'll be more comfortable. He'll know he's doing it at his pace.

Once he's reliably sticking his head through, you can start gradually increasing the interval between him doing as you've asked and you giving the reward.

You put into words what I sensed but didn't fully see. I actually started as you suggested, simply letting him put his head through to get the treat. My problem I think is I moved a little too quickly. He mastered getting the head through the loop after three sessions, and does it readily. Given his reaction to my trying to loop it on his neck maybe I should dwell a bit more on the first step. but I didn't really know how to get to the next step, getting the harness resting on him as you saw me trying to do. So my question is how do I bridge that gap?

And the last thing, I don't know whether you're doing this or not, but time your session for when he's at his hungriest. (Not food deprivation or anything. Just training maybe 30 minutes or so before lunch or dinner.) That's when he'll be at his most motivated.

Hope this helps.

I've targeted this tactic, yes. but I think it's more worked out as a hybrid of timing to when he's hungry and when he's content (eat a big meal, nap, wake up, train; when he wakes up and is active). This is because I've had a bunch of days off lately with the holidays so try to do a quick 2 minute session (not much longer than the video) ever hour or two.

Again, thank you so much for your guidance glad to know I'm on the right path. Just need to figure how to bridge he gap between him putting his head through the loop and me placing it on him. If I can work through that I'll be home free. That and getting him to put his head through without a treat to actually have him do it.

 

[Anansi]

You're welcome, Chris. Glad I could help.

As for bridging the gap between getting the loop over Parker's head and getting it around his wings and body, I can only tell you what worked for me with Maya.

After she got comfortable with me putting the head opening over her head, I gradually increased the time I would leave the harness hanging around her neck. (She would routinely chew at it, but that was fine.) Finally, once she seemed ready, I made a large enough loop to go easily around her left wing and pulled her wing through. (Of course, Parker should be VERY used to you touching his wings before you attempt this.) Then I slid the harness loop to the other side and did the same with the right wing. It's the sliding of the harness loop, btw, that is most likely to get you in trouble. A lot of the harness training is about training yourself to be as smooth and efficient as possible.

If things go south during the process, don't fight him. Just distract him with another treat as you work to extract him from the harness.

 

[miloslave]

Just to ad my two cents, I know i have mentioned it before, but charlie became very confused when I tried to tighten the harnass on his belly once looped around the wings, he kept thinking I wanted him to step up. I solved that by moving the clasp to his back, in between his wings, and tightening it from there. No confusion and a lot less frustrating for him.

 

[Anansi]

Can you take a pic of that modified arrangement? (Both by itself and while actually on Charlie?) I ask because it seems as though that might pose potential difficulties during flight.

Has Charlie flown with it like that? Does it not tend toward flipping him end over end once he reaches the extent of the tether?

 

[miloslave]

Remember that the part that goes around the body can move from the back to the front once tightened. It is a independant piece from the one that goes over the head.

The first image shows how the training video fits the harnass, with the little clasp by the belly and pulling it tight there, the second pic shows the clasp moved to the top, once over the head and around the wings you just tighten it at the top on his back rather than at the front at his belly. Once tight, you can move it back the the front as always. When I want to take it off, I once again move the clasp to his back and loosen it there. Charlie is busy stuffing his face right now, so can fit and take a pic of it just after fitting a bit later.

 

[Anansi]

Hmmm... interesting. Though sliding the tightened clasp would likely aggravate Maya and Jolly due to the uniquely sensitive nature of ekkie feathering.

Do you move it back down? Or does he fly with it up? Because if it could still be effective while up, that would indeed make things significantly easier.

Thank you so much for the pics, and I'm looking forward to the rest. Would video of the process be possible?

 

[miloslave]

[ame="https://youtu.be/pclGABKULNc"]Alternative Avian Harness tightening - YouTube[/ame]

As promised, I hope it helps. I find the clasp moves to the front most times without me even trying. Just make sure the lead is also under the wing.

 

[Anansi]

Thank you, Ronel!

Yes, it definitely makes tightening the clasp easier. I reckon that, for the purposes of walking about with your bird, leaving it in that position would be just fine, too. The only time I'd probably be concerned about moving it to the front is if I'm taking them out for the purpose of flying, as it could interfere with the tail if situated up top.

Thanks again, Ronel. Much appreciated.

 

[miloslave]

My pleasure! [emoji3] It really helped where Charlie was concerned. Less biting battle wounds, lol!

 

[skylala]

Any feedback would be warmly welcome. I feel like we're at a critical point and don't want to caulk this up.

Feedback needed on eclectus harness training technique - YouTube

First off, I think it is great to show the harness first up and treat for a calm reaction, so good job Also great ending on a 'good' note.

The main issue though is you are placing the harness over him, and Parker is reacting negatively to that, by moving away from it. ( I know this has already been mentioned and explained and you have responded, but I'll put my .02c in :09 I also personally don't see the point in using the wrong hole to start with. You will have to re-train when you are trying to fit his head through the much smaller head hole so it seems a bit like a waste of time. Don't get me wrong, I can see why you are doing it, I just think it is an unnecessary step and I think he will find the head hole to be so completely different that the original training will not have helped him much.

My suggestion is to hold the harness with one hand, with your fingers spreading open the head hole and pushing as much of the harness away from the head hole, just so Parker has a clear sight of the hole he needs to get through and the opening is wide enough so he can stick his head through. The other hand will be used to hold the treat.

Hold the treat behind the head hole and wait for HIM to move closer. Don't move the harness towards him, ever. Make him do the work.
First hold the treat through and in front of the opening so he doesn't have to put his head through. Then the treat will be at the opening, then behind it, so he understands, 'Oh ok, my head has to go through that thing". (You have mentioned he was already passed this step so that is good)

Do not move the harness towards him at all. He needs to come to it. In no time, he should be voluntarily putting his head through the hole. This to me is a lot better situation. He is making the choice that it is OK to put his head in there, you are not forcing it over him and making him uncomfortable. Release the treat when his head is through the hole.
Work on that for an entire session so he is comfortable. As soon as he gets the treat, he will most likely take his head out. It's OK he took his head out, but we don't want to reward that, so no treats, no comments no 'good boy'.

At this point, you are not dropping the harness on his body... He is putting his head in, taking it out, without the harness on him. Only when he is good with that do you move forward.
Next step is getting his head through, and 'dropping' the harness down over his neck. Hold off your treat now until the harness is sitting over his neck. No more treats simply for sticking his head in the hole! Gotta raise criteria. If he struggles at this point you have gone too fast.
Again, he will likely take his head out as soon as he gets the treat. This is OK, just don't comment on it or reward. Try and give the treat then remove the harness, though. That is all you are asking for at the moment, don't move forward too quickly. He must be comfortable before you start asking him to keep it on him for extended periods.

When he is reliably putting his own head in the harness and you can drop it on his neck, say a command for it the moment his head is going in the harness. Not before, not after. He needs to understand the command is related to the action of him putting his head through the harness. (Much like when you are training a dog to sit, you don't link the command word with him lowering his butt, but with the moment his butt touches the ground) My command is 'Harness'. Commands are important When he learns the word with the action, you will be able to say it right at the beginning and he will know, 'Ok, I put my head in now'.

Next step, when he starts getting comfortable (you should be able to tell), you want to keep his head in the harness, by giving him lots of treats one after another while he is staying there (Jackpot!!), Because he is distracted by lots of treats in a row, he should keep his head in there.

Try and remove the harness BEFORE he removes his head from it. It's not a big deal if he takes his head out, but don't reward it, don't comment.
Now I think an important step here, that I don't see you doing, is giving a release command. Release commands are very important! Think of it like this: You can train a dog to stay, but if you don't give a release command, the dog will just break the stay whenever he wants, instead of waiting for you to say 'OK' before he is allowed to move. They have to know when the behavior is over, otherwise they just get confused with what you are asking.
You will introduce the release command when YOU are removing the harness from his head (Not when he is taking his head out of the harness). My release is 'Take it off!" Then when you take the harness off with the command, he can have lots of treats afterwards. If there is no command and you give him treats, he is just getting treats for not having the harness on anymore, which is counter productive.

I would spend a lot of time on this step before moving forward as it is important.

Eventually you should be able to lower your treats and he should keep his head in the harness until you release him to take it off. Ideally you will get to a point when he doesn't receive a treat until the entire behavior is completed.
That is, you say the command - Harness, he walks towards it, puts his head in, you dropping the harness down his neck, you wait a few seconds, you saying your release 'Take it off' and him taking it off = Treats!!
That would be the goal before you move forward to the wing loops. He needs a clear understanding off all the elements of putting the harness on before you move forward to the next big thing. I would say the behavior is broken up into 3 big steps. 1) Getting the head loop on and sitting with it on without taking it off. 2) Getting the wings through the loops without fussing 3) Tightening the harness.

Also, you can surprise him every now and then by ending the behavior as soon as he attempts to put his head in right at the beginning and giving him a treat. That is nice he is offering the behavior so why not reward him for it every now and then? The best time (Or, only time) to randomly treat here is when he is being particularly enthusiastic or quick at offering the behavior. We want that! We don't want a hesitant bird who takes his time. We want to reward eagerness!! The faster, the better!

I'm currently re-training my boy with the harness after a very long absence with it. (He is 2.5 years old, has gone without harness for 1 year)
When I first got it when he was young, I didn't train properly. Yes, I was one of those people who was like, "Oh look, my baby bird is doing just fine here. I don't need to do the serious training, he can get it on with no trouble!" Ha!
He would 'accept' the harness but I had to do all the work, often hold him while doing it because he kept trying to avoid or fly away, sometimes he would bite as well. So I'm starting fresh with him right from the beginning and I'm currently on training session 3 and at this step, where he is holding his head in the harness for some time and I am introducing the release command.
So, you can take my advice with a grain of salt given I don't have a harness trained bird yet, but it is working and I'm familiar with clicker training for dogs so I understand the importance of getting the animal to do all the work

 

[Anansi]

With the exception of seeing the use of the bigger loop as a waste of time, I think Skylala's process is excellent. The head loop thing depends, I believe, on the bird. Some parrots are more adventurous and daring than others. And some do better starting off with training wheels, so to speak. Jolly, for instance, looked at me like I was on drugs when I tried starting him off with the small head loop. But once I introduced him to the idea via the large loop, he became more accepting.

I'm also really glad Skylala posted on this because I had forgotten a very important step. The release command. It is indeed very important, and for the exact reasons stated. My commands are similar. "Harness" for putting it on, and "off" for the release command. It gives more structure to the process.

 

[skylala]

Thanks Anansi! I find training techniques interesting

Yes it's true other birds could learn differently and benefit from the bigger loop. I've only tried on my bird, of course. I thought with slower steps (Spending more time bringing the bird closer to the harness before even touching it, then spending more time around the area where the birds head is going through the hole) the bird should be able to overcome any issues. But of course if it works for some, perfect

I also want to mention I noticed when you were training, Parker was getting no treats or rewards for actually having the harness sitting on him, which is the main goal. Rewarding after for taking it off, while not rewarding at all for having it on, might make the process harder for him.

I also notice too much talking during the behavior. 'Come here Parker. Come here! No. Nooo...'
'No' is a negative association so try to avoid that. Praise the good, ignore the bad. No talking is better than talking constantly. Talk to him and praise him when he does well. Bring more excitement to those moments.

I also noticed there was no marker for the good behavior. You simply released the treat. Without a free hand available for a clicker, you need to mark the moment with your voice. Releasing the treat can be slow and not happen at the right moment. Saying the word "GOOD!" right when the desired behavior occurs, THEN release the treat. (GOOD! is different to Good Boy and more precise and shrill so it's a nice marker, like the clicker. You are telling Parker at the exact moment you said 'GOOD!', that is what you wanted right there, like taking a photograph of the moment in his brain)

Also as been mentioned, if cheese is not the healthiest option but he loves it (and also likes other healthier treats) mix the treats so it's random what he gets. That's a fun game! In his 'JACKPOT' moment he can have lots of cheese. The best reward ever, he'll want to do that again!

 

[chris-md]

Skylala, thank you for taking the time to explain it in such detail, thank you! I see what you are saying clearly, and it makes so much sense. The structure you out around it is brilliant. And the release command I will implement. I'll take a week to absorb and integrate and repot another video to see how it looks.

with the structure you've recommended I understand where I might be talking too much. I think I talk to calm both him and myself! ill keep it to a minimum and let the treats do the talking. Regarding the marker, when training my dog I never used a clicker, the treat always was the marker. But I can see where this is a lite different from basic obedience training, and a clicker might be more helpful. I'll need to change up my routine here and see what happens.

I can't say thank you enough to the pair of you!

 

[skylala]

You're welcome and I hope it helps some. I look forward to your next video

Regarding the marker, when training my dog I never used a clicker, the treat always was the marker.

What if you can't give the treat straight away? What if the dog is too far away to give a treat or because it is not in your hand at that time?

Markers 'bridge' the gap between the desired behavior and the treat. It tells the animal, 'OK, even if I have to wait a little bit I am going to get rewarded for doing the thing I just did' and the animal remembers what it did.

If it takes you 3 seconds after the behavior to get the treat into the animals mouth, what behavior is the animal understanding the reward is for? Also, you should still be able to convey to your animal with a word that they have done a good job. Giving praise, love and affection work hand in hand with food as a reward, so markers still work without food treats.
Giving treats every single time works OK. But studies show the moment you introduce 'MAYBE you will get a treat', the animal becomes more engaged and excited in learning. What will they get? A treat? A pat and cuddle? A toy? A 'good boy' and praise? They are all rewards. Of course all rewards have value. Favourite food treat is always the highest value reward while saying 'Good Boy' is probably the lowest value reward, so you give appropriate rewards for the situation as well. When learning new or hard things, use high value rewards.

 

[chris-md]

Skylala, when teaching obedience to my dogs that has me at a distance (mostly stay and come) they get profuse verbal praise immediately, and treats when they reach me. So the praise acts as the bridge. But I've never trick trained, so never had need to really use a clicker with them.

So with the new techniques I've got him getting his head through the little hole pretty readily, as long as there is a treat to chase through the hole. But he Won't even go near a large loop if there's no treat present.

I'm hitting a truly terrifying stage and not sure what to do. Once he gets the harness on over his head he's great. And as stated before, with a treat getting it over his head isn't bad.

Removing it is another thing entirely. as is typical I'm sure, removing he harness drags up just about every feather on his head, doesn't remove very easily, and causes a mild panic attack where he gets a bit tangled. Any idea how to handle this? I'm so afraid of this could ruin everything for him. When this happens I am able to get it off relatively quickly after a bit of thrashing about, but he could hurt himself or bite me in the process!! He hasn't developed a phobia yet. I want to avoid it at all costs.

 

[skylala]

Every now and then they will get stuck in the harness when trying to get it off. To start with try and hold the harness so getting stuck is unlikely. Eventually it shouldn't matter too much so long as things stay positive.

Working without a treat will take a while. I haven't moved on to no treat yet and I'm happy with his progress so far. Remember not to move too fast with training! For best results this needs to be a slow process moving at the birds pace.

Eventually though he will just expect a treat to be in your hand and will follow it without realizing you don't have anything. Then you will give him a treat after he walked in without one. After that you can raise criteria where he has to walk in without the treat. You can still hold your fingers in the same position as if there was a treat, he will learn to follow your fingers just like he learned to follow the treat. When you move to this step remember to give him a treat after he followed with no treat... Then slowly wean him off.

I made a little video of my birds progress here. You can see he willingly comes to the harness without any issue. Also note I am not putting the harness over him, he is walking into it.

I'm pretty pleased with how he is doing. At one point he walked a bit in the harness so I tried to encourage him to do it again. I might do that more often, might even attempt a game of 'fetch' while he has it on.

Don't mind my high pitched bird voice XD
I also made a few errors myself here, with command and praise prompts. KNOWING what to do and doing it correctly at the time of course are not the same thing


[ame="https://youtu.be/qV_3QByFz_k"]Jiraiya Harness Training - YouTube[/ame]

 

[chris-md]

Wowowowowow!!! That is a treasure trove (mods, this video needs to be a stickie, some how, some way!)

That was amazing, thank you! And very reinforcing! Since you both told me to knock it off with putting it on him, my sessions look pretty identical to this at this point. And you are right, remembering the proper release command is not always easy! I've only focused on getting him to walk through with abundant treats. My initial attempt was merely to get the beak and eyes through the small holes using this method, back and forth so he gets used to it. but the nylon slips down the neck easier than I thought, so we just went with the flow.

What I also got from this in regards to my initial question above was I need to slightly adjust my grip. I hold I like you do to get him through but I hold it the same way to remove it, trying to get the hole larger for him. I might have to let the fingers slip a little higher on the back line and just peel it off. Doing what I do now prolongs the removal process and allows for tangling.

Thank you so much! Back to practicing, will keep you updated

 

[Anansi]

Chris, I know just what you mean with the entanglements. The way you hold the harness can minimize the occurrences, but if your bird is still kind of freaked out by the harness (like Jolly) it can still happen.

The important thing to remember, if things go REALLY sideways, is to keep your cool. Our fids often take their cues from us and from our body language. The two of you getting frantic will only increase his panic. Seems like simple logic, but logic often flies out the window when your bird is thrashing about in distress.

So if it happens, keep speaking in a calm voice and distract him with treats. If you remain cool and in control, he'll be less likely reject the harness altogether.

That kind of panic happened once in the beginning with Maya and just yesterday with Jolly. Neither had lasting effects on the training. (Jolly put his head back into the loop not even 5 minutes later.)