New pair of young Eclectus acting very hostile to me. Looking for advice.

[BirdofChange]

I adopted a pair of baby female SI Eclectus. They are sisters and were hatched/weaned together by a local breeder. They are currently 18 weeks old tomorrow, fully weaned and drinking on their own before the breeder ok’d bringing them home. I visited them a couple times during the weaning period about once every two weeks and interacted and handled them then. But when we went to pick them up Moxie was flapping everywhere and didn’t want to be touched even at the breeders (or by her), and when Moxie gets worked up Adamaah also gets worked up similarly. One thing that may be of relevance is that towards the end of the weaning period My breeder had some medical issues and for the last three weeks with her (week 14-17) she couldn’t handle them much but kept up their care to ensure they were fully weaned.

I brought them home on Wednesday the Aug 28th so about 4 days ago. Adamaah the younger of the pair ( by 3 days) was initially more ok with being handled when we got home and I did the initial weigh. Moxie (the older) has been aggressively hostile towards hands. Puffing up, striking, and whenever possible flapping away, to the corner of the cage or across the room. And after trying to weight them again on day 2 and going through another round of Moxie wrangle where she flew into a window and a couple walls trying to flee and was clearly panicked I’ve put a hold on trying to handle them at all for a few days to hopefully let them settle.

I have them both in a round top Double Macaw cage (6’x3’x6’) which was intended as their “day cage” and I have a playtop (36”x28”x66”) intended as their night cage in my room. On the first night I did try to introduce them to both cages by moving them to the night cage for bed time and then moving them back to the “day cage beginning of day 2 (Thursday) But that is when the second freaked out Moxie wrangle occurred.

They have both been eating well since day one. They mostly were on a diet of Zupreme natural pellets and a rice/veggie mix at the breeders, which I’ve replicated and added to that a lot of fresh veggies and some fruits in a decent variety to introduce them to new foods and see what they like. And they eat at least a little of everything and a lot of some. So I’m not concerned they aren’t eating. I have been solely taking responsibility for all food and water changes and since Thursday haven’t opened the cage except for food exchanges to try and give them space.

I have been sitting with them every morning and talking to them and reading a short something for about 30 minutes. And during the day I take time to check on them and speak to them and respond to their noises. My housemate also responds to their sounds and speaks to them. They aren’t loud at all, but during the midday they make a lot of interesting sounds at us and each other. SO that seems positive. They also seem engaged wioth the variety of toys I’ve provided and they engage with both forage feeders full of ”treat” foods (but I’m still guessing what treat foods are for them so that’s mostly a small amount of seed mix, dried fruit, and nuts.)

The problem is that when I (or anyone) approach the cage Moxie tends to puff up and start to display threat signals. Adamaah mostly doesn’t just from an approach. But if a hand is visible and anywhere close to them or the cage near them both will start air striking and then lightly strike (they haven't actually tried biting hard yeah at most a hard squeeze) at the hand if it gets ”to close”, then if it looks like it might touch them they Flee flapping away. Again though Adamaah is more tolerant and less active in this behavior unless Moxie is already worked up and she is very proactive in the threat displays and then fleeing. Interestingly in the first could days when they were out BOTH of them when stepped up or held close would grab for my shirt , climb determinedly and stand on my shoulder (even Moxie) and be fine (sitting quietly) unless I moved in a way that made her feel unsteady or try to take her off the shoulder (like to return her to the cage) in which cases she will strike at hands and seemingly flee in panic.

I did a lot of research on Eclectuses and thought myself prepared with a plan but, as they say about plans, it failed to survive contact with the parrots themselves. I am concerned about doing the wrong thing here and there are a lot of conflicting advice in internet articles, and the books I have don’t strictly cover what I’m seeing. I don’t know IF I should encourage one out of the cage, but any engagement at this point to try and move them will probably end up in some form of needing to grab them if only for their own safety. I don’t know if this is just fear of a new place, If it’s cage aggression, if it’s them defending each other, if the few weeks at the end of their wean when they couldn’t be handled a lot by the breeder has gotten them afraid of hands. I don’t know if I should let them get comfortable in the one cage or keep trying to move them to the “night” cage despite the production that would be, I don’t think that sounds like the best plan for any creature involved.

Literally any advice will help I’m trying to remain calm, but internally I’m panicking that I’m screwing this up at a pivotal point, I’m sad that they seem to hate me, and I terrified I’m not going to be able to course correct whatever it is I’m clearly doing wrong to make them comfortable and happy. I know It’s going to take time to properly bond and trust, and they need to come around on everything in their own time. But I don’t want to do nothing if that is actually the wrong thing to do as well. SO if anyone has any thoughts please share.

 

[chris-md]

Hello and welcome!

I’m so sorry your having some struggles at this stage.

I can see one major problem, and that’s this sharing of cage space. Female eclectus can get very territorial once they hit maturity, I’m very concern for the cage set up you’ve arranged. Can your double macaw cage be divided? Not just with bars but solid material? Toes clinging to the inside divider are very vulnerable to severing/aggressive amputation.

Regarding the biting, I want to tread very carefully here. Eclectus are unusual birds in their development compared to other parents and we don’t have anybody here who has bred Eclectus.

I see two issues:

1) not handling the birds for those three weeks may have played into it. I don’t know how lasting the damage may be, but they are still so young that I feel it’s not at all a lost cause. Different story if the bird was 10 years old.

2), they are BRAND NEW to your home, you’ve GOT to give them time to adjust, which means a lot of patience. Every bird goes through an adjustment period of misbehavior when they first come to a new home. They are testing boundaries, and it’s up to you to hold to those boundaries. Just like children.

How certain are you that they are in fact fully weaned?

I think one thing that will help you is to start clicker training, and teach them how to target. This is VALUABLE skill and has many applications, including getting them to go somewhere if you can’t pick them up.

Also, for now, see if you can get them to step up onto a stick or t perch. This will save your hands. Maybe even a heavy fleece glove. Look for YouTube videos on training a bird to be non fearful of hands, I seem to recall a birdtricks video on this once upon a time.

 

[BirdofChange]

Yeah I know there is a lot going on, and the cage can be separated with bars or acrylic sheeting if that becomes an issue when they get older or even just during the hormonal stages. As for the weaning... I'm fairly certain. They don't cry or scream as my research would indicate they would if they weren't weaned. They eat pellets voraciously, and definitely enjoy the hot rice veggie mix and the fresh veggies i'm putting out. they also seem to be drinking on their own as well as dunking foods so i'm pretty sure they are self hydrating at this point. they aren't lethargic, they are paying attention, and they react to their environment.

This morning they seemed interested in what i was eating (popcorn as a snack so i decided to grab our clicker and try something new. I lined up all of our treats (that i had gotten to see if i could find something they liked) my popcorn included and went through trying to get them to take treats from my hands and clicking and praising when they took a treat and didn't bite me. i learned they really like popcorn, peanuts and cranberries.... and really don't want blueberries or broccoli.

But this seems a positive step, Adamaah even changed perches to get closer to me when i was offering popcorn and cranberries so that's showing that while still not liking fingers that it's not insurmountable. Moxie still is very stand offish and defensive but offering Adamaah stuff first until moxie moves forward seemed to work. If Moxie ;eads Adamaah on the aggression reaction, maybe I can get Moxie to follow Adamaah in the trust work if it seems to materially benefit Adamaah to play along.

I will check out targeting training, but for now I'll just take the progress gleaned form literally hand feeding them and associating the clicker with positive interactions. When would a good time to actually try and start training be if they are still acting like this.

 

[BirdofChange]

So some updates on this situation after a couple days.

I started using a clicker to associate taking treats without biting fingers. And then later that day started beginner target training and it seems to have helped almost immediately. Both birds responded to teh target and even manged to get them to take a step or turn around to grab it. Clicking and rewarding. A. loses interest more quickly than M. but it was a positive step. Right now the treats i've idenfitifed as at least sligthly motivating are Popcorn (mostly M. but A responds) Craisins with low sugar (mostly A. but M. responds a little), Slivered Almonds (both respond ok), and unsalted roasted peanuts ( about the same as the almonds).

After two days of this I've gotten M. to move from the back of the cage to the open door after the target, but A. is more reserved in how far she will go to touch the target. both are still unfriendly with fingers getting too close in general. and are highly suspicious / will fly away from most attempts to use a handheld perch to step up. i did get A. to step up on a perch this morning and transferred her to the training perch i had about 6 feet from teh cage, she sat there for a couple minutes and then flew back to the cage... so progress.

M. is still the most hostile to hands and will not even allow a handheld perch close to her without puffing and striking, but when appraoched with a hand held treat she will take it gently most of the time... more often than A. who will often try to strike the treat and pull it away quickly.

so with this progress in mind I have a few more questions if any one has suggestions:

1. Am I doing any damage in the long run doing target training IN their cage through the open doors?

2. Does any one have any suggestions for different training treats that an Ekkie might really go crazy for?

3. I know neutral territory training would be ideal, IF i can get them on a perch any suggestions on how to get them to explore the the area of the house around their cage without causing distress?

4. Lastly, I've had to do a half dozen "Moxie Wrangles" where Moxie leaves the cage, usually in a flapping panic because a hand or handhed perch got too close in a way she took badly, and she is now out in the house and then flutters away from any attempt to retrieve. Usually she ends up in a place she can't easily progress on her own or is dangerous for her to remian, (next to the couch on the floor, at the base of the stairs, on the dog bed, or hanging from a picture frame) and I have to gently and firmly grasp her, hold her steady while she flaps to get away and return her to the cage as gently as possible trying to control her wings. Usually at this point she is breathing heavily (it sounds like panic to me). she doesn't usually bite at this point, only during the attempt to get hands on her, and even then not hard. Once we get to the cage she will go for the nearest perch and move away from teh hands and stop and stare at me. The question is, given that sort of situation where i can't give her time out of the cage to settle... is there a better way to handle it than I'm doing? Am I potentially doing permanent damage to developing trust with M.?

Also here is a picture of my lovely (if bitey) girls: Adaamah on the left. Moxie on the right

 

[fiddlejen]

Oh my, they are gorgeous!

 

[fiddlejen]

3. I know neutral territory training would be ideal, IF i can get them on a perch any suggestions on how to get them to explore the the area of the house around their cage without causing distress?

4. Lastly, I've had to do a half dozen "Moxie Wrangles" where Moxie leaves the cage, usually in a flapping panic because a hand or handhed perch got too close in a way she took badly, and she is now out in the house and then flutters away from any attempt to retrieve. Usually she ends up in a place she can't easily progress on her own or is dangerous for her to remian, (next to the couch on the floor, at the base of the stairs, on the dog bed, or hanging from a picture frame) and I have to gently and firmly grasp her, hold her steady while she flaps to get away and return her to the cage as gently as possible trying to control her wings. Usually at this point she is breathing heavily (it sounds like panic to me). she doesn't usually bite at this point, only during the attempt to get hands on her, and even then not hard. Once we get to the cage she will go for the nearest perch and move away from teh hands and stop and stare at me. The question is, given that sort of situation where i can't give her time out of the cage to settle... is there a better way to handle it than I'm doing? Am I potentially doing permanent damage to developing trust with M.?

Hi, I only have 2 little Bugies and a Sun Conure. And I've only had them since Jan and March. So, I m No expect.

However there sound like some tiny similarities between your birds and my pair of uncooperative budgie.

I keep thinking, you probably need a second cage. I know cages can get pricey, but, at some point you'll need to take them to vet -perhaps unexpectedly. (Like me and my Sunny just yesterday ). You may have already prepared by getting a good sturdy travel cage, and if you haven't you might want to do so.

Then, if the situation you described is still occurring, you might try returning her to that Secondary, more boring cage. Preferably in a different room or at least significantly removed from the regular cage. This will (1) give her time
to settle, and (2) Avoid Rewarding this particular undesired behavior.

Anyway. I only have smaller birds myself, but I'd suggest giving something like this try. (If you haven't already.)

 

[BirdofChange]

I keep thinking, you probably need a second cage. I know cages can get pricey, but, at some point you'll need to take them to vet -perhaps unexpectedly. (Like me and my Sunny just yesterday ). You may have already prepared by getting a good sturdy travel cage, and if you haven't you might want to do so.

Then, if the situation you described is still occurring, you might try returning her to that Secondary, more boring cage. Preferably in a different room or at least significantly removed from the regular cage. This will (1) give her time
to settle, and (2) Avoid Rewarding this particular undesired behavior.

Anyway. I only have smaller birds myself, but I'd suggest giving something like this try. (If you haven't already.)

I have a second cage actually. but the difficulty moving M. without panic has me thinking that for the moment it's probably not worth the risk of damage to our potential trust to be forcibly moved. this is of course my inexpert opinon, I could very well be wrong. Part of this has been compounded by her actually flying away from the cage occasionally and getting into spaces where she flails, and then i have to grab her to get her on even ground and she panics. So M.'s determination to potentially combine an independant streak, with a flight reaction to hands, and not being great at navigating in the air just yet is a combination thats causeing my no little amount of stress.


That said i have made some more progress in the last few days. I stopped leaving pellets in the cage over night and begun training sessions first thing before i feed them.

A. is coming to the point where i can pet her chest wings and back with only a minor test bite as i approach or if I move too fast. So huge progress there. She does however lose interest in training far faster then M. She will also ocassionally step up on to my hand but requires some real prompting and her foot grip is so soft she has a hard time stabilizing on my hand/arm. I have managed to get her to ladder a little bit hand to hand and i have done some short walks away from teh cage and put her on the training perch i have. She always pretty shortly makes a flapping intent to return to the main cage and will fly herself if i don't oblige. I'm fairly certain i COULD move A. to the "night" cage without much if any damage to our relationship. I'm not sure i shoudl separate them like that though as they've literally never been out of each others line of sight for more than a minute.

M. on the other hand is taking to training more readily than A. and especially if i give A. a treat first. I've already got her transitioning multiple perches, crossing the cage, and even a couple times climbing up the bars to get teh target. It's just the absolute fear reaction to hands that is the stumbling block. Approach her with a hand without a visible treat pinched in front and she poofs up slightly raises her wings leans back , bobs her head, strikes at the hand and then retreats to the point she'll lean against the bars. if the hand continues to approach she will fly off. When out of the cage if the hand comes even close to touching she doesn't even bother with biting or puffing she just launches into flight.

So for now i'm focusing on physical contact with A. and building on progress there. Continuing active training with M. and hoping she settles. the big question is whether or not i should start using the "night" cage. Whether it's Just A. since I can move her calmly, or if i should move them both in the evenings and deal with the inevitable "Moxie Wrangle"?


This is how they prefer to step out of the cage on their own: M. on the left (puffed up becasue i got close) A. on the right

 

[BirdofChange]

Ok so further update and really hoping any one has any guidance because I could use a sanity check.

So A. is more reliably taking training and it's becoming clear it's about timing and reading the room on my part. She is also far more willing to come out but still keeps going back to the main cage if that's an option or to the highest point if it's not. I get that this is relatively normal and becoming comfortable with the house and me will take more time so that's working well.

The continuing issue is Moxie and her aggression. We've hit a routine where a little after feed time one or both will hang on the top gates and just wait to come out. they just want me to open the platforms so they can hang out. which is fine, it's usually A. first asking and we do a little step-up practice and she flutters back to the cage when she is done. M. however will always eventually come out if not immediately then shortly there after and then usually climb to the top of the cage and wander around look around etc...

Which again is fine except when she either decides to test fly somewhere and land poorly or it's time to go back in the cage. in both cases I go to her assistance and she takes it badly and usually starts a "moxie wrangle" which inevitably ends with me holding her firmly after grabbing her from a position she couldn't get out of easily her self. which ends up with her struggling and being really upset once shes back in the cage.

I feel like I'm undoing any progress i'm making with the target training and treat giving every time she does this wrangle thing. I feel like i need to keep her safe but she keeps making me do that by having to touch her and she clearly doesn't like that.

I've tried using a loos perch to get her to step with limited success but today she just attacked toward the hand holding it and seemed to treat it as an extension of that hand. i tried wrapping myself in a blanket to conceal my hands and arms, and she still puffed and flew when i got close. i've tried giving her treats to calm down, and waiting to see if she'll return to teh cage on her own (in which case she'll flutter tot he base of the cage and then make sounds becasue she can't climb up herself).

Any advice or suggestions on how i can try to avoid making things worse with M. would be welcome. they get along fine in the cage no aggression at all right now except for one day last week when they squabbled after moxie had just gotten back from a wrangle. they eat, and moxie seems content to chat with me and A. it's just proximity and contact that set her off, and she shows real signs of a fear reaction when that occurs. all feathers on end and snapping while retreating.

progress initially was looking great but this more freedom for one feels like I have to deal with situations that are possibly undoing progress with the other.

 

[chris-md]

LOTS to digest here. Question: are these your first parrots?

Buddy, you need separate cages...period. Their reactions and your interpretation are irrelevant. You’ve got two poorly trained birds you are currently working with, and need to be able to to control the situation bunch better than you are. And when they grow up they will be threats to each other. At least separate the cage with acrylic.

I’m really glad your experiencing some success here! You’ve begun grasping the single biggest lesson you need to change the situation around: learn to read their body language, and RESPECT when they say no. Perched on your hand leaning towards the cage or a perch, clearly saying they don’t want on your hand anymore, and get them on the perch quickly.

I think your overarching challenge is learning your second overarching lesson that you need to learn that will help turn everything around: different birds learn and train at different paces. The more fearful bird shouldn’t be trying to do the same things as the braver bird. Work at their pace. Slow down with her a bit

If they are flying away from you, that’s your hint that your pushing too far, and you just screwed up. Following lesson 2 above, don’t put them in such a situation where you could scare them away. Keep them comfortable.

When they get themselves into situations, so long as they aren’t in eminent danger, it’s best to let them learn how to get out of it. Letting them fly to the cage when they are is a great start, actually.

The gripping thing? Not at all surprising. Ekkies have one of the weaker grips in the bird world, which is why you have to be very careful with smooth, sandblasted perches. Many Ekkies have trouble keeping grip.

For step ups, get a T perch. That will save your hand from the attacks your seeing, running up the stick. In situations where they fluff up at yo

Your key here is this: keep training, but don’t force interactions. Positive reinforcement.

Lastly: have you taken these birds to a certified avian vet to get them fully checked out? Including full bloodwork?? If not, do it immediately, to help rule out any health related causes to the bhevaior you’re seeing.

 

[fiddlejen]

... I've tried giving her treats to calm down, and waiting to see if she'll return to teh cage on her own (in which case she'll flutter tot he base of the cage and then make sounds becasue she can't climb up herself)...

I often keep parrot ladders up against my little birdies' cages anytime they might be out. They learned that the way back into their own cage was to go find a nagic ladder. No matter where it is! In front of their cage, up against an un-related wall, etc. If they start climbing the ladder they will end up in their cage.


This is also convenient because my Budgies will sometimes get into an in-convenient spot but if I offer them a ladder, they will usually take it for a return-ride back to their cage.

This is obviously just a minor suggestion, of one little thing that worked for me with my tiny birdies. But I kinda suspect that any bird might like a ladder-option for returning to it's own cage.

(Plus, ladder-climbing birdies are just so much fun to watch!)

 

[BirdofChange]

Thank you both for the feed back.

I definitely need to haul it back a bit and moth at a slower pace. I've started that approach since yesterday morning and I just need to stick to it. Lots to think about and plan for the future.

I did in fact get their blood work done and they are checked out.

Now this might just be an oversensitive parrot parent question but how much sneezing is a concern? I feel like every time one of the birds lets out a little sneeze i immediately start to sorry and check their eyes and nostrils. it's not constant or anything just I don't have a calibration for large/medium birds.

 

[chris-md]

Glad to hear it I do think you actually will get a handle on this. These birds are so young that you’ve hardly didn’t any damage that can’t be quickly reversed. But if you find you’re having trouble progressing, you might considering doing a consult with a parrot trainer. They are out there for sure, something like $60 and hour I’ve heard for a Skype consult. It can be life changing for you.

The sneezing is no different for larger birds than smaller birds. Once or twice a day is fine. Always be concerned if you have discharge. Otherwise don’t stress. You wouldn’t do that if your dog sneezed. You don’t have to be paranoid about every little thing. The anxiety that brings can be crushing.

 

[Anansi]

There has been some excellent advice given, here. I'd like to emphasize the point about separate cages. They may seem fine now, but as Chris pointed out female ekkies especially become dangerously territorial. In the wild, they are naturally hard-wired to find a nesting space (hollows in trees) and defend them with everything that they have against everything from competing female ekkies to snakes to significantly larger cockatoos.

It's because of this hard-wired predisposition that female ekkies get such a bad rap as being so vicious and terrible. Truth is, once you understand what drives them, they can be incredibly loving and caring birds. You just have to respect the hard-wired instinct. And for you, step one of that will be getting them into separate cages.

This will help you with their training as well. When you reach into their cage and one reacts badly, it will amp up the other's reaction as well. If they were in separate spaces, this would be far less of an issue.

As for the wrangling issue, best bet is to address the factors that lead to it. As Chris also pointed out, if they are in a situation that is not inherently dangerous, you can give them the space to figure a way out on their own. But for this to work, you have to first anticipate what in the room could potentially be either dangerous to your birds or detrimental to their development.

For instance, electrical cords of any kind are a clear and imminent threat. Mirrors and windows can be as well. Or toxic ingestibles. But these things can, for the most part, be handled before hand.

As for things detrimental to development? Anywhere that could trigger the nesting instinct. Dark and broody spaces. Under couches. Nooks and crannies where they feel covered on all sides. Any corners with overhangs. These are things you want to find a way to address before they become an issue. Because believe me, once a female ekkie finds a potential nesting site she will become OBSESSED with going there every time you open that cage.

Oh, you'd asked about whether target training them from inside the cage would be bad. Absolutely not. The point, as you managed, was to get them used to targeting. Get them to understand the process and to make the link between the desired behavior and the reward.

A few training tips:

-RESPECT their individual attention spans. This one is huge. Like any good general, you want to avoid giving orders that will not be followed. You want to avoid getting your birds used to telling you 'No'. Step one of this is only training them for as long as training is interesting to them. It's kind of like dating. You never want the date to feel like it's been going on too long, right? You always want to leave the other person wanting more. This is the same thing. Get a feel for when each of them tends to lose interest. For ekkies this can be anywhere from 5 to 25 minutes. Once you know the individual's tolerance point, try preemptively ending the session maybe a minute before. You want to end it on a good note, you know?

-DEFINED MEALTIMES. There are different ways of feeding birds. Different schedules. Some free-feed. This is to say, there is always food available in their bowls all day long, so they can graze at their leisure. Many swear by this, and that's fine. To each their own. But this method does make for more difficult training... and can lead to rather corpulent birds depending on the individual personality involved.

Personally, I go with defined mealtimes. Which is to say, they have a defined breakfast and dinner time. The only thing they get in-between are training snacks. (Some go for a three meal per day structure, with smaller-sized portions. This is fine as well. As long as they are defined mealtimes.

This is for several reasons. First, I feed my ekkies 100% fresh. As such, having food out for them all day just isn't practical.

Second, having defined mealtimes opens a world of possibilities. For instance, since they always receive their meals in their cages, my birds never consider their cages as places to be avoided. By associating their meals with their cages, the cages become home to them. As such, there is never a fuss about going to their cages. It's a place of comfort. Of sustenance.

Third, it allows you to more accurately gauge what they are eating and to avoid gluttony. Ekkies tend to be very eager and robust eaters, so best to avoid any issues with them getting overweight.

Fourth is that it is a built-in incentive for them to go back to their cages. This isn't a concern now, as my pair is fully trained and acclimated to our household, but in the early stages, you need every advantage you can get. And anything that cuts down on the need to chase down and capture your birds is a good thing. So when you're working with them and they are still not reliably target trained or willing to step-up, you need to appeal to their basic needs. So, let them out relatively close to one of their mealtimes. When you know you have the time for them to be out and you're not rushing anywhere. And then, when it's time for them to go in, just put their food into their dishes in their respective cages and let Nature do the heavy-lifting. (If each is bonded to a particular cage, you can do this with both at once. But if they have a tendency to want to visit each other's cages, you might want to work on this separately. Otherwise, you'll wind up having to chase one down, again.)

Fifth is to find the treat that makes your ekkies lose their individual minds. You find the right incentive treat, and they'll start looking forward to the training sessions. You want them to start wanting to do what you want them to do. It's less about control than putting yourself on the same page with them. Here's a prime example, taken from early on in Jolly's color discernment/fetch training, of when your ekkie wants to do the training at least as much as you do: [ame="https://youtu.be/-i84_jXn00c"]Jolly Double Dip - YouTube[/ame]

And sixth? Well, that's covered in the following tip...

-STRATEGIC TIMING. This is another big one. I only train my birds between their defined meals. Usually when they are at their hungriest, maybe an hour or so before their next mealtime. ***Please note, this method should NOT be confused with withholding food for performance. Treats can be withheld pending performance, but NEVER defined meals. The difference between the two may seem subtle, but it's actually huge. What I'm saying is to use the natural occurrence of hunger strategically. Not to induce hunger for compliance. I hate the practice of hunger training, so I just want to make sure what I'm saying isn't interpreted in that way.***

By strategically scheduling your training sessions, your birds will be at their most treat-motivated, whereas a free-feeding parrot will never feel that sense of urgency. Now, of course a free-feeding parrot can still be trained, but this just provides something of an advantage.

And now, here are some links that you may find helpful:

For understanding the psychology of biting parrots: http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

Another thread on training: http://www.parrotforums.com/general...essions-my-bird-hurting-our-relationship.html

A video that shows the basics of getting a bird to start trusting you (You already seem to be doing some of this, but you can take a peek anyway): [ame="https://youtu.be/GIaDDSeZKnI"]Parrot Training Workshop Live Demo - Step Up Training with a Macaw - YouTube[/ame]

A target training video: [ame="https://youtu.be/HaOicTtwIZo"]Beginners guide to target training parrots - YouTube[/ame]

Step-up Training: http://www.parrotforums.com/training/48810-need-help-step-up-training.html#post435993

Bite Pressure Training: http://www.parrotforums.com/training/63988-bite-pressure-training.html

And finally, a long but VERY informative thread on a wide range of parrot training methodologies, from old school to new: http://www.parrotforums.com/training/43631-old-vs-modern-techniques.html

 

[chris-md]

:worship2: THE MASTER HATH SPOKEN :worship2:

^^^^^^^what he said^^^^^^^

 

[Tami2]

:worship2: THE MASTER HATH SPOKEN :worship2:

^^^^^^^what he said^^^^^^^

Yes, indeed!
Stephen, you are the man! :heart:

 

[Anansi]

Hahahahaha! Y'all are so silly! But thank you! I hope it all helps. Looking back, I see I was a little long-winded, there. Lol!

 

[BirdofChange]

Ok so update time.

Things are looking better! Still working on a permanent separation solution but the advice here has been great, plus some practice, getting to know my birds and more research and things are getting better and I'm less panicked all the time.

SO I've continued target training regularly at least twice a day. once right before they get breakfast (not always the most motivated but i get them to touch the stick. and a session before dinner where they are usually far more active.

As for feeding i have a couple forage feeders i fill once a week that has their seed/pellet content they can work at. Daily they get a small bowl of chop or hot food each in the morning and one at night. In between they each get a fresh veggie skewer hung when i remove the breakfast bowl and i remove before dinner training time. that seems to work really well. They prefer the hanging veggies to teh bowl foods based on how they attack them but it's been a balanced diet so far. (turns out brussel sprouts, jalapenos, snap peas and an apple slice is the current favorite skewer).

Adamaah is still the most bold and has developed more confidence in moving around and flying short distances, still very cage focused I can't get her away fromt eh cage more than about 10-12 feet before she gets anxious and flys back.

Moxie is still very hand shy and will absolutely not step up voluntarily but she doesn't attack every finger in range and will allow occasssional pets. in teh last few days i've gotten her to step onto or make a short flight to my forearm or shoulder so it's defintiely not people it's just fingers and hands that are teh problem, but fingers with treats are happily tolerated but not stepped on.

the Wrangling issue advice was dead on. I solve two major issues by placing a ladder on the floor to allow a stray bird to reach teh bars they can then climb up and started placing a blanket over the top of the cage when they are out. The top of the cage was the biggest problem becasue once up there M would not come down and would panic when tried to remove her, with teh blanket they don't like standing on it so if they do fly up they immediately find a way back down. with those two things in place when moxie decides to foray off i just wait and she always makes her way back to the cage or the ladder to get up to the cage.

It's clear that neither have "bonded" with me yet but i see greater signs of trust with Adamaah day over day and Moxie is definitely settling. all that said here is a picture to show the progress i have made! (Adammah up front and Moxie in back.

 

[chris-md]

Such wonderful news, thanks for updating! That bond can be tricky for some, but the training is laying foundation for 2 way communication. Now you can see: The targeting is great for more than just touching the tip of a stick!

Try having them fly a short distance to touch the stick. Maybe to your hand?

 

[BirdofChange]

I don't mean to necro this thread but I was thinking an update was due and as a means to thank all the great advice I've gotten.

My girls are now 11 months old and a combination of the advice here and research has helped me settle in and calm down about a lot of stuff.

Interestingly their personalities took on almost an inversion with Moxie now as close to a velcro bird as I can imagine an ekkie being. She is always the first out of the cage and onto a shoulder, and often coming to look for me if i leave the room. No more Moxie wrangles. Adamaah on teh other hand is now much more indepentant and assertive. She does things on her own schedule except where a treat is concerned in which case just get out of her way.

But they both seem healthy, stable weight and aside from sibling squabbling over the best perching places around the house they have seemed to settle in well. I think I'm in a good place at least until they start to get hormonal.

Thank you again for helping me through the rough initial weeks.

 

[chris-md]

That's amazing, i'm really happy for you! They look wonderful, and it sounds like they are really taking to training. Great job!

Please tell me they are now housed separately?