Please tell me about co-parenting of baby chicks

[Echo]

Echo, that is fascinating! Do you know other breeders who co-parent? Specifically one who raises TAGs?

Unfortunately, I personally do not know of any other breeders who Co-parent. I am sure they are some but none I have seen advertising this method of raising parrots.

 

[MikeyTN]

I am ALL for co-parenting!!! I have done it while the parents care for the baby while I do the handfeeding IF they're not getting enough feeding, especially the younger ones and newer parents. Otherwise I just handle them on a daily basis. They're just as sweet as the handfed babies.

 

[AllAboutQOL]

I am so glad to see us raising awareness of co-parenting birds! This is so very important for the future of aviculture.

For all of those who hate seeing parrots abandoned and left in rescues, co-parenting is the way forward! It solves two problems:

1. If the chicks are left with the parents, this automatically stops the problem of over-production by double- and triple-clutching that leads to lower priced, unvetted sales of parrots, not to mention the enormous psychological stress to hens (please see the thought-provoking 'Best hand-rearing method' thread by Alisana).

2. Co-parented birds make the best adult birds (please see my link to a PhD thesis on the rearing of African Greys that concludes this). Is there any coincidence that the majority of parrots for resale are around 2-5 yrs old? Almost all of them are hand-reared, and many were kept with their previous owners from weaning. The reason tame babies are given away is that the 'side-effects' of hand-rearing are not known until the bird enters puberty. The message is this: all breeding methods can produce great babies, only parent-raised/co-parented chicks can produce quality adults as pets.

Just like we (the parrot-owner community) have raised awareness about the benefits of buying from a breeder rather than a pet store, we need to start work on the hundreds of websites that incorrectly state 'buy only hand-reared babies for pets, parent-reared only for breeder birds'. Public awareness/education on co-parenting is the key.

If there is enough of a demand for co-parented chicks, one day there'll be many more breeders replying to threads like this (all the more thanks to Echo and Mikey for leading the way)!

QoL

 

[Tiffany24]

Hi, I know this is an older thread but I am very interested in Co-Parenting. I have a pair of Green Cheeks that I hope to have chicks from this spring. Both parents were Handfed and they are not tame. The female is scared of people and the male bites every chance he gets. The female turned a year old in February and the male is between 4-5 years old. My concern is since the Female is scared of People and the male will bite at every chance will I have any problems co-parenting? Such as them attacking the chicks? Thanks.

 

[noblemacaw]

I got my Illiger's macaw Diego in 2002 and he was co-parented. The breeder left the chicks with the parents longer but also was involved in "rearing" them when they were still in with the parents. Diego's parents were bred by her so Diego was a F3 and the parents let the breeder help feed them.

My noble macaw Mihijo was raised by the breeder. Both of my mini macaws were tame but differences would be Mihijo was very laid back was not quick to nip or complain and loved all people. He would let anyone handle him and he was very quick to learn tricks and new phrases. However Mihijo had his whole body plucked and would shred his flight feathers. He kept his tail and head normal feathered. Diego never plucked at all. During hormonal season I didn't see much difference in behavior with him. Diego was quick to nip if displeased was more of a wild child and was very bonded to me to the exclusion of anyone else. When I traveled out of country for two to three weeks my sister could not take him out of his cage because she was afraid of him. Mihijo she enjoyed and had out all the time but Diego didn't want anything to do with her so he was cage bound while I was gone. (he lived in what is now Valentino's Kings 406 so it was MORE than big enough for just him to have to live in it for two to three weeks)

Granted these are two different species of mini macaw with different styles of raising them but there was obvious differences between them because of the way they were raised. I will say Diego knew he was a parrot and had a wild side I loved. Not everyone appreciated that about him but I loved him very much. Mihijo was a person parrot. He liked to be with all people but he LOVED Lupe and would court her. I had to teach her how to handle him without stimulating the hormones. Poor Mihijo.

Valeninto was pulled at 6 weeks. Both his parents are tame for the breeder with the hen better with the breeder than the male. I also know she allowed Valentino's two brothers the season before him to be raised by the parents for 8 months. I believe the two boys are going to be for breeding but not sure if for her breeding or elsewhere. Like Diego Valentino has that touch of wildness that lets him allow to be pure parrot. I think it also helps him be a parrot that I had the breeder leave his flight feathers intact. He was allowed to fledged and learn the skill of flying which I have taken on and continued to fly him here. I was able to teach him to fly down from upstairs of a two story home, he flies sideways, backwards, hovers, turns corners sharply and now is flying faster.

If I ever get another parrot from a breeder I would want the baby to be co-parented and I would not clip the flight feathers. They are better adjusted birds and they KNOW they are parrots.

 

[Tiffany24]

Thanks, I love the idea of co-parenting. I really want to try it but I'm just worried since the parents aren't tame that if I get in their nest box the parents will hurt the chicks. Is there any ways I can tell if they will hurt their chicks?

 

[sodakat]

Personally, I don't care for the phrase "co-parent" because it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Let's face it, most babies are left with their parents at least 10 days. Do the breeders who then take over feeding get to say they co-parented because the bird parents fed 10 days and they fed 80 days?

I've been fortunate to watch my pet Eclectus raise several clutches through weaning. I handle the babies a bit while they are in the nest but do not feed them. Today I had the 6 1/2 week clutch out for about 15 minutes while the dad sat on my shoulder and the mom sat close by in the cage with the door open (her choice) so she could keep an eye on her nest box.

Tiffany24, my suggestion to you would be that you not present a nest box yet this year. Instead, get to know your pair better. You want them to be able to trust you when they have their first clutch. Also, if they are a bit older they will more likely do a better job of parenting.

I knew I did not want to hand feed so when Rose's first chicks hatched, all I did was peek at them for a couple weeks while she cared for them. I praised her quietly and she learned that I could be trusted. When their down came in and I knew they could be held for a couple minutes without getting cold, I slid a piece of cardboard between the entrance to the nest box and the cage, while Rose was in the cage having a stretch and pooping. She did get a bit distressed the first time I picked them up so I stood right in front of the cage so she could see that I wasn't hurting the babies. Then I put them back in the box, shut the lid, and removed the cardboard so she could check that they were okay. BTW, I placed the babies away from the area where she would land when she barreled back into the box.

Now, on this 4th clutch, she definitely trusts me and I can take the babies out as well as put them back while she is in the box. Putting them back is when the babies are more likely to get hurt because the hen might beak at you to keep you out. This is why the cardboard is so important. If ever the parents would get in when my hand was in the nestbox I made sure that the back of my hand was between their beaks and the chicks because I would rather they bite me than accidentally hurt a baby.

Another point I'd like to make is, the real socializing of a parent raised baby begins around and after the time it weans, when it has already fledged, not while it is in the nest box. As the parents teach the juvenile to eat on its own, it becomes more interested in spending time with me, because I provide food!

Trust is really what it boils down to, both the parents trusting you and then the babies learning to trust you.

 

[Tiffany24]

Thanks, You explained a lot. I actually gave them a nest box a few days ago and they have been mating since yesterday. I really appreciate the information.

 

[sodakat]

Well, don't be surprised if you have the first egg within 2 weeks of the box going up.

Since you didn't wait to let them know you, I would instead give them privacy more than anything. It will be your responsibility not to stress them because stressed birds are more likely to harm their chicks.

You may want to leave the chicks alone until they fledge. As long as they hear you while you are servicing the cage etc. they will know that you exist. And when they first climb out of the box and begin watching the world, if you are soft spoken and calm, you will not have much trouble making friends with them.

If the parents are afraid of you the babies may pick up on this though and also stay away from you.

If they don't lay within a month, I strongly suggest you remove the box and work on your relationship with the parent birds.

 

[Tiffany24]

Ok Thanks. You've been a lot of help.

 

[Echo]

I let the parents do the raising of the chicks until they are weaned and off to their new owners. I do the socializing from 3 weeks old onward. I handle them each days.
The parents do have to trust you, however, when breeding, they will be protective of their babies so I'm always very careful when I handle the babies. I also monitor what's going on in the box with a mini camera mounted inside. If any problem should arise, I can then intervene.

 

[Tiffany24]

Thanks, I've been working with this pair. The male will let me pet him sometimes when he's out of the cage but he goes after my husband and the female finally came out of the cage a few minutes ago. I'm not wanting to feed the chicks but I will if I need to. I'd like to be able to socialize with the chicks though.

 

[Echo]

If they are breeding, don't try and touch the parents, chances are they would just get agitated and upset. My pair trust me and like to hang on me usually, however, when breeding they treat me differently because they are in protection mode. I just don't get in their way and service they cage very quickly and let them have their privacy. The last thing I want is to upset them. Displaced aggression can cost the babies their lives.

When I handle the babies I make sure the parents are out of the cage and I close the cage door so they can't go back in. I usually put food out for them to keep busy. Once I put the babies back, I give the parents a treat and open the cage door. They usually eat the treat instead of rushing back in, which is almost like they forgot I took the babies in the first place

 

[Thingamagigs]

I love the idea of co-parenting. I am hoping to be able to do it in the future but I am not certain what species I will attempt it with.

Echo... just fabulous! You are doing EXACTLY what I want to do. Even down to the cameras inside the next box. My co-parenting will involve daily handling but limited pre-weaning feeding. I am in love with the idea of the parents teaching babies to fly! When you are handrearing larger babies this is a HUGE issue... its very difficult for both handrearer and baby to go through the fledging process.

Sodakat... I don't think anyone can say that they co-parented birds unless they actually co-parented.
I dislike how people warp the meaning of things... and people allow it, instead of sticking to their guns and saying "No, that is NOT the definition".
Instead of sticking to the definition, they leave the term and create a new one! This happens in Australia especially within the government and people's increasing anxiety with political correctness! Instead of "homeless people" it is now "people experiencing homelessness" LOL! And the word handicap is no longer used, instead "disibility" is used. I'm sorry but disibility does not describe many issues sufficiently... especially from my point of view! I am not "dis-abled"... I am handicapped... I can do almost everything anyone else can, its just a heck of a lot harder! LOL
It's a common reason literacy levels are declining. How many times do you see someone actually use "then" instead of "than"? "This chair is bigger then that one", instead of "This chair is bigger than that one".
I actually had a complete communication failure the other day because the person I was speaking to did not understand the words "plot", "ridiculous" or "text". I agreed with her thoughts on a terrible childrens book by saying the plot was ridiculous. She somehow took offense and said "I don't care if the plot is ridiculous, its not enough to make me want to finish the book. I hated the text and won't read a book about a boy who poisons his grandmother."
It blew my mind that she didn't understand those simple words. She thought ridiculous meant funny, rather than "worthy of ridicule". She thought plot was some type of writing structure (perhaps mistaken for prose?) rather than "the story line". And she essentially thought text was the story line, rather than any written thing. Her defense and the defense of those I spoke to about this subject was "it just means something different to her", asthough it is completely appropriate for people to have a different meaning to the actual meaning of a word. How are we to communicate if there is no commonality to words within the same language! lol

Anyway... sorry for the rant there lol
My point is, co-parenting is defined by the act of co-parenting.
The affix "co" means a partnership.

co-
prefix -
1. together; joint or jointly; mutual or mutually: coproduction
2. indicating partnership or equality: cofounder ; copilot
3. to the same or a similar degree: coextend

Being partners means working together.

partner
noun -
1. an ally or companion: a partner in crime
2. a member of a partnership
3. one of a pair of dancers or players on the same side in a game: my bridge partner
4. either member of a couple in a relationship
verb -
5. to be or cause to be a partner (of)

Parenting means the rearing of young.

World English Dictionary
parenting
noun -
the care and upbringing of a child

So the actual definition of co-parenting is: "to work in partnership with biological parents to rear their offspring".
It actually has a dictionary definition also based on human parenting...

co-par·ent·ing
noun -
An arrangement in a divorce or separation by which parents share legal and physical custody of a child or children.

co-par·ent
noun -
1. a divorced or separated parent who shares equally with the other parent in the custody and care of a child.
verb (used with object) -
2. to share equally with another parent in the care of (a child).
verb (used without object) -
3. to act as a co-parent.

Co-parenting requires participation from the moment the bird is able to perceive its world. That moment is the only flexible factor in the definition, some may view that moment to be when the birds eyes open. Others may feel that touch and smell plays an important part early on. Rearing is not limited to feeding and the role feeding plays in co-parenting is important but does not form the whole of the definition. Both parents do not always feed the baby equally, either.
It ceases to be co-parenting when the human removes the baby before parenting would naturally end. Then it becomes handrearing.
If the human does not participate as close to equally as possible or waits until after weaning or fledging to interact with babies, this is known as hand taming.

 

[Echo]

Another point I'd like to make is, the real socializing of a parent raised baby begins around and after the time it weans, when it has already fledged, not while it is in the nest box. As the parents teach the juvenile to eat on its own, it becomes more interested in spending time with me, because I provide food!

Not so at all, I disagree. The young need to be used to you way before weaning because by then, they are more independent and are very interested in flying around with their parents and siblings rather than staying with you. I teach them to step up before they learn to fly. They are also used to my warm cradling hands early on as I try and make them feel secure near me.
Even though I "provide food" to the birds, they still see their parents as the real providers and will still beg here and there even after eating on their own. They accept me not only because their parents accept me, but also because from 3 weeks on they are used to me being a part of their life.

 

[Tiffany24]

In my case since the parents don't have full trust in me what should I do? Should I let the parents out of their cage and give them different foods to distract them when I take the chicks out of the nest box?

 

[Echo]

It is hard to recommend you to do anything without knowing myself what the pair is like. It's normal for them to be aggressive when sitting on eggs, however, do they come out of the cage? They might not and in that case you would put a cardboard between the box entrance and cage to block their entry when you took babies out. It is then harder to distract them so close to the nest box. Would they accept treats from you? And you can't see what's going on in the box without a camera to make sure they don't lash out at the babies upon their return.
So it is really your call. If you decide to take babies out to socialize before they fledge (when they are stronger and less likely to get hurt by the parents) then make sure that once you return them to the box you wait a bit with you away from the box to let the parents calm down BEFORE opening the box entrance again. Give them something they love but rarely get, like a peanut in shell (human grade) or piece of cheese etc. to please them before they go back to the babies.

Without knowing the pair, in your place, I would likely wait for them to be older and stronger before handling them. I would say at least 5 or 6 weeks old.

 

[Tiffany24]

Thanks, The male loves to be out of the cage but the female only comes out occasionally. I will probably wait until the chicks are older before I start taking them out.

 

[sodakat]

I guess we can differ on exactly how and when we handle the babies and still end up with the same results. The window of time between when the babies first climb out of the nest box on their own, while they still return to the box each day, and the time when they begin flying and no longer want to sleep in the nest box, is the time I too handle them the most frequently. Before that I just hold them for a few minutes each day so they are used to me. After they begin flying I work on recall. I've had really good luck teaching recall to flighted juveniles.

The main focus for me, is the enriched lives the parents have by caring for chicks through weaning. Plus I know they are much better at nurturing than I could be.

I think that any parrot can become a wonderful companion regardless if it is hand reared or parent raised. The situation in the home after a youngster arrives probably has almost as big an impact on what type of adult bird it will become as the rearing process.

For instance, my pair that taught me about babies were both hand raised birds themselves. Neither were handled too much because the breeders in both cases had many other babies to tend. But once they came to me they not only spent time with my husband and me, they also lived in side by side cages and spent out of cage time with each other. They went through their maturing years together and experimented on mutual feeding and beaking and learning how to interact together. I think their instincts were strong enough that together they figured out how to be birds.

The majority of the Eclectus I have are fairly well rounded birds I think. One is a bit mixed up on if he's a bird or human, but I don't know his history.

I believe that the birds who enjoy spending time with both people and other birds are more content, for lack of a better word.

 

[Echo]

Sodakat- I would love it if you started a post on flight recall for juveniles. I think that's great and I'm sure that everyone getting a newly weaned baby could also work on that as well.....along with anyone else interested I keeping their bird flighted.