Toe-Tapping, Need Support/Advice

[chris-md]

What I strongly recommend is an elimination diet. Feed bare minimum diet for a few days, maybe rice and one or two vegetables at most. After the tapping is gone, begin adding one new ingredient at a time back into the diet every couple of days. Often times the toe tapping starts within 24 hours of eating the offending food and you’ll ID it quickly.

 

[katie_fleming]

I'm so sorry to hear this! Can you get him in for blood work? Curious about his protein and calcium levels.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I'm so sorry to hear this! Can you get him in for blood work? Curious about his protein and calcium levels.

I do want to get his blood work done as soon as his digestive system is good - right now I'm emailing the vet because the meds aren't consistently working for him. So as soon as Cairo gets the all clear that he's healthy there, I'll ask for a blood test.

Right now, he's been on a diet of mostly broccoli and some butternut squash (rice is added in for dinner). His toe tapping has stopped for the past 2-3 days, so I'll be adding in another veggie for dinner tonight (still thinking of what to add). Hopefully it's just a kind of allergy rather than something like Jasper's calcium problem (initially I thought of that because it had only happened at night/early morning).

 

[katie_fleming]

Hoping it stays gone! Keep us updated

 

[Anansi]

Sorry I'm only seeing this thread now. Been a bit hectic, lately. But I've read it all through.

Okay, first let's start eliminating some things, as considered causes seem to be all over the place right now.

Two meals a day is NOT the cause. I've always fed two meals a day to my birds, and as long as you are giving them the right amounts at each feeding is perfectly fine. Their high metabolism is offset by the fact that they are not flying the 40+ (in the case of male ekkies) miles per day that they would be in the wild. So giving them 2 meals is a far cry from cruel, as it actually helps them avoid obesity which many ekkies tend toward. Want a check for this? Compare the average weight of an ekkie in the wild to one in captivity. Even on a two meal a day diet, the captive ekkies will tend to weigh more.

Now, this is completely different from people who withhold food for the purposes of training, which definitely is cruel. But two good-sized portions each day, rounded out with treats given during training sessions and such, is actually healthy for them. And for in between, there is nothing wrong with an added foraging activity, as they are working for their food which again both mimics what they would do in the wild AND keeps them away from the pesky trend of obesity.

Next. The temperature is likely not directly the culprit. Especially if you're keeping it consistent rather than creating savage 10 degree swings at a time. Even then, while it would not be good for him, I don't know if it would cause toe-tapping or wing-flipping, which are neurological in nature. Only temp related thing I could see as indirectly causing the issues is too low a humidity level, but even then it seems a bit of a long shot.

I cosign wholeheartedly with Chris' take on all of this. If it is indeed a food allergy or deficiency, the elimination method will be your best bet of getting to the bottom of things. Just be sure to keep a very detailed food diary and be very organized about the time allotted to each set of ingredients before adding something new. Some foods only cause a reaction after building up for a few days, and others only when combined with certain other foods.

Other food issues to be considered include high protein and, as previously mentioned, high sugar. Both have been known to trigger toe-tapping and wing-flipping in ekkies. (If I remember correctly, Suley was a member whose bird had a stubborn case of toe-tapping and wing-flipping, and it turned out to be the protein in his diet. Apparently he was just extra sensitive to it for some reason.)

And as Katie mentioned, getting blood tests taken is a priority. Low calcium or vitamin A would be an immediate red flag in this case. As would, as I said, high protein.

Other potential causes include a nerve discomfort with unknown triggers that need to be treated from time to time with nerve meds and anti-inflammatory drugs. Some CAV's speculate that the unknown trigger might be a variant of ABV which causes nerve pain/discomfort. Do not panic upon reading that, though. It's not the full-blown variant and all that's needed in that case is occasional treatment whenever there is a flare up. (And this call not to panic is coming from someone who has lost a bird to the full blown variant, so believe me... there is a difference.)

Another thing. you've mentioned a few times that he sometimes doesn't want to eat. Are there swings in his weight? What is his current weight? And what type of eclectus is he?

And lastly, how is he doing now? Is he feeling any better?

 

[charmedbyekkie]

Cairo's a red-sided, though he's likely a mix (likely Aru or Vos somewhere in his genealogy) since breeders don't keep subspecies straight very well here. His weight varies from 380-395g; local ekkies owners say this is normal (some say overweight) for red-sided ekkies since they're a smaller subspecies. I'm wondering if this weight is also because he's only 16 months old and has more room to grow. But I thought ekkies were supposed to be 440-600g, so I'm a bit concerned.

His toe-tapping has stopped since we started eliminating stuff. He's currently on broccoli, butternut squash, red bell peppers, snow peas, and brown/red rice. I hope to reintroduce more greens into his diet, but I'm hesitant to since the bok choy variants here aren't cleaned well before they reach the store (I've come across some with blue pellets on the inside). When he used to eat bok choy (xiao bai cai and shanghai greens), I would soak them in plain water for a while before rinsing and chopping; now, I'm thinking that I might need to find more strict measures on the cleanliness of his food (still researching on this part).

We're having an issue though where he is reluctant to eat his chop if I don't add rice in. And when I add rice in, he'll sometimes try to pick out only the rice, but other times, he'll just gobble the chop down with it. So I have to make his rice soggy enough to coat his veggies to encourage him to eat more.

That being said, I'm concerned about how much he eats. Per meal, I offer him about 3/4 cup (sorry, my measurements go back and forth between Imperial and Metric), but he normally only finishes 2/3 of it. Based on the images I've seen on this forum, I'm sure he should be eating more each meal, but he doesn't want more when I try to give him more.


It's been terribly confusing for me recently, especially with his yeast problem. His bubbly, yellow pee is gone; it had switched to mostly urine and feces with alternatively mixed or no visible urates. Now, it's going back and forth between looking normal/healthy again and just urine with dark feces. I'm scheduling an appointment this week for him since his meds are finishing up, but just seeing the inconsistency worries me a lot.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. My next step is to find stainless steel bowls for him instead the plastic ones his previous family gave us. I'm scrubbing his floor grill and tray every day with vinegar and water. His whole cage gets scrubbed down with vinegar and water twice a week. I cook a new batch of rice every evening for dinner, then refrigerate and reboil in the morning for breakfast. He's occasionally offered treats (coconut, banana, etc) during the day, but it doesn't make a noticeable difference either way. I work full-time, so I can't give his probiotics the 2-hour gap between his meds and the probiotics (per vet's request) except if I come home early or on the weekends; I'm almost to the point of asking my partner to take time to feed Cairo a probiotic-coated snack during the day (he already goes the extra mile of watching and training Cairo during the day).

He's been napping a bit throughout the day, but I don't know if that's because he's not getting good sleep (he sleeps with his cage covered, but sometimes my partner has to do work late in the evenings so there's some noise). Or maybe it's because we're in the rainy season, so the lighting is dimmer and us humans nap more on the weekends when it's raining. Yet when we do flight training, he's so active and eager and overall animated, so maybe it's just normal for him now that he's relaxed with us.

But between the sword of Damocles (in the form of toe-tapping) and his digestive problem, I'm bewildered and lost on how to keep him healthy (I mean, that should be at least the bare minimum, right?). I'm so worried - going back to pellets is becoming more and more tempting if it'll just make him healthy, especially since the two vets here keep talking about pellets. Toe-tapping won't kill him immediately, but his digestive problems might.. I really don't know. I just want him to be happy and healthy. And within a month of him coming home to us, he's been struggling, so the clear variable is something that I'm doing wrong, not him.

 

[katie_fleming]

Please take a deep breath! You're NOT doing anything wrong. We all know that helpless feeling when something is wrong and you're desperately trying to find out why. You are doing everything you can to resolve this and make sure he's healthy.


Do you have a scale to weigh him? I'm absolutely terrible at weighing Jasper regularly (I really need to get back to this) but it's important. If you're worried he's not eating enough monitor his weight.


Do you sprout for him? I started this year for Jasper. It's so easy and he loves them. It's another food source that's super nutritional.

 

[Anansi]

Vos ekkies can range up to even 600g, though that's on the heavier side of things. My Bixby was a red-sided, but at his heaviest he was only around 425g. While there are guidelines set to give you an idea of where your bird might fall on the weight chart, remember that each bird is unique. Feeling his keel bone is a good way of determining whether or not he is underweight. If the keel bone feels sharp and like it's protruding, then yes, he's likely underweight. Also, you want to regularly check his weight for any swings or rapid weight loss.

Does his prior owner know how much he weighed before you got him?

Please don't beat yourself up over this. You're doing your best right now. A lot of what you need to know to properly tackle this depends on what his test results say. And also, when you do take him in for that appointment, remember to take fresh samples of his stool so that the vet can take a look and let you know whether or not his health has improved in that respect.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

Omg, thank you, you guys! It was late at night, and I was really upset (Cairo had had a bad day) when I posted, since his meds were finishing up and I still couldn't see any significant improvement. (Google didn't help either!)

Yesterday was a better day. A better appetite and better stools, a bird who was happy with his evening shower, and I managed to time it for him to take his probiotics before bedtime. I was so relieved that I didn't mind him pooping indiscriminate of location.

We've an appointment scheduled tomorrow (and I'm expecting his Birdie GoGo tomorrow as well!), so I'll ask the vet to show me how to feel his keel bone (he's not a touchy-feely bird, so I'll need help learning). I'm hoping he gets an all clear from the sample - based on yesterday, things are starting to go back to normal . Any recommendations on how to push for a blood test? People here seem very reluctant/hesitant (I think my vet will likely recommend against doing it unless Cairo shows significant issues), but how can I present it so that she's more open to the idea?

For his morning weighing sessions, the little guy is always either too sleepy or too hungry to be patient with weighing him. I'll see if I can just consistently weigh him every time I come home instead of before breakfast. His previous family doesn't have earlier numbers unfortunately, so we're flying blind there.

But thank you so much, everyone, for supporting us. My partner's not a bird person, so he's been a bit bewildered (but trying to be understanding) at my reaction to Cairo's digestive system being out of whack. It's been so helpful to have a place to express concerns and hear feedback and advice.

 

[Anansi]

I'm so glad to hear that things are looking somewhat better! I'm hoping with you that Cairo gets the all-clear at the appointment.

As for convincing the vet to do a blood test, I'd point out that, even if all is well, you need a baseline to know what his levels should look like. Not to mention that a vet should know a bird can look perfectly healthy even as they harbor something potentially detrimental to their health.

That said, however, is the vet a certified avian vet? Because if not, and she is hesitant because she has no experience drawing blood from birds, I wouldn't push it. I'd just try and find a CAV to do it.

Weighing at a consistent time is good, though ideal would be before breakfast. How I got this to be routine was to purchase a scale with a removable perch on it. (And a tare function so that I don't have to do math every time I take a weight. Lol!) Then I just make it a practice every day that I take them out, walk them over to the kitchen and promptly put them on the scale perch (saying simply, "Scale" so they learned what was expected), then grab their food and walk back with them to the cages. Soon enough, they came to look forward to going on the scale, because they associated it with food. They recognize it as the precursor to mealtime.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I'm so glad to hear that things are looking somewhat better! I'm hoping with you that Cairo gets the all-clear at the appointment.

As for convincing the vet to do a blood test, I'd point out that, even if all is well, you need a baseline to know what his levels should look like. Not to mention that a vet should know a bird can look perfectly healthy even as they harbor something potentially detrimental to their health.

That said, however, is the vet a certified avian vet? Because if not, and she is hesitant because she has no experience drawing blood from birds, I wouldn't push it. I'd just try and find a CAV to do it.

Weighing at a consistent time is good, though ideal would be before breakfast. How I got this to be routine was to purchase a scale with a removable perch on it. (And a tare function so that I don't have to do math every time I take a weight. Lol!) Then I just make it a practice every day that I take them out, walk them over to the kitchen and promptly put them on the scale perch (saying simply, "Scale" so they learned what was expected), then grab their food and walk back with them to the cages. Soon enough, they came to look forward to going on the scale, because they associated it with food. They recognize it as the precursor to mealtime.

Unfortunately, there is no CAV in this country. There are only two vets that are on the Association of Avian Veterinarians list. I've been to both (made a little thread about it), but this vet is the only one that has the capability to do blood work. It's just culturally less is done for birds than, say, America. So despite my disagreement on a few of her beliefs (that birds perch higher for dominance, that ekkie should be ok with touching within a couple of weeks, parrots including ekkies should have pellets, etc), she is my only option - the other vet flat out does not do anything with bird blood.

I'll try your method for weighing as soon as I get a small perch Right now, we've been trying to get him to either step directly onto the kitchen scale or tare the scale to a branch and weigh him while on the branch.

All that being said, we had some toe-tapping/wing-flipping last night for a few minutes. But it stopped this morning. The latest thing I added was snow peas, starting from Sunday evening.

 

[Keatz]

Here's a link to a site with information about toe tapping.

https://eclectusparrotcentre.com/contact/toe-tapping/

I contacted them when Oscar was having a severe episode. They were very helpful and supportive.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

Here's a link to a site with information about toe tapping.

https://eclectusparrotcentre.com/contact/toe-tapping/

I contacted them when Oscar was having a severe episode. They were very helpful and supportive.

I'd read through their website extensively before adopting Cairo, but never thought to contact them. Thanks!

 

[charmedbyekkie]

Just got back from the vet!

His yeast is gone! Yay! Now it's just a matter of time for his digestive tract to heal. During the visit, he produced more urine than the vet would like (and she is taking into account that he's on a fresh chop diet). She says it's likely the weather has been very hot and humid recently (more than usual) since I did tell her he's been drinking slightly more water than usual, which she said was a good sign that his body is regulating that for him. But we're to keep a close eye to see if there's any improvement; if not, it might be a bladder issue.

She helped me feel his keel bone and verified that he's a healthy size but it wouldn't hurt if he had 3mm more on his chest. She did note, based on our description of flight time, that he's not very athletic since he heats up quickly during the sessions.

For the blood test part, she actually wants to do one in 2-3 weeks to make sure his bladder (or liver or other parts) isn't the cause of his urine problem. She said if we did today the test wouldn't be a good baseline anyway since he just got over the yeast problem and is still healing from that. So 2-3 weeks from now, hopefully he'll be all better enough to get a good baseline blood test that we can work from.

Huge relief to hear he's on the mend! In total today, we did a faecalysis, urinalysis, and microscopic urine sediment check. We're so happy to have found this vet who is willing to do these tests (and have a turnaround of analysis within minutes) and who is kind enough to take the time to listen to our questions (from his feather condition to keel bone to temperature) and show us how to check him over to assess his health ourselves.

 

[Keatz]

I'm glad to hear that Cairo is on the mend. Hopefully, the urine is nothing. My vet told me that it's usual for birds to have higher urine content during summer, from drinking more and eating fruit.

 

[Anansi]

Here's a link to a site with information about toe tapping.

https://eclectusparrotcentre.com/contact/toe-tapping/

I contacted them when Oscar was having a severe episode. They were very helpful and supportive.

Thanks for linking this, Keatz! (And good to see you! It's been too long!) Laurella Desborough is VERY knowledgeable about ekkies, and while I have never seen the site you linked before, I'd directly corresponded with her a few times several years ago when I had some questions about Bixby and she was very helpful. I'll definitely be reading through that article.

Just got back from the vet!

His yeast is gone! Yay! Now it's just a matter of time for his digestive tract to heal. During the visit, he produced more urine than the vet would like (and she is taking into account that he's on a fresh chop diet). She says it's likely the weather has been very hot and humid recently (more than usual) since I did tell her he's been drinking slightly more water than usual, which she said was a good sign that his body is regulating that for him. But we're to keep a close eye to see if there's any improvement; if not, it might be a bladder issue.

She helped me feel his keel bone and verified that he's a healthy size but it wouldn't hurt if he had 3mm more on his chest. She did note, based on our description of flight time, that he's not very athletic since he heats up quickly during the sessions.

For the blood test part, she actually wants to do one in 2-3 weeks to make sure his bladder (or liver or other parts) isn't the cause of his urine problem. She said if we did today the test wouldn't be a good baseline anyway since he just got over the yeast problem and is still healing from that. So 2-3 weeks from now, hopefully he'll be all better enough to get a good baseline blood test that we can work from.

Huge relief to hear he's on the mend! In total today, we did a faecalysis, urinalysis, and microscopic urine sediment check. We're so happy to have found this vet who is willing to do these tests (and have a turnaround of analysis within minutes) and who is kind enough to take the time to listen to our questions (from his feather condition to keel bone to temperature) and show us how to check him over to assess his health ourselves.

I'm so glad that the yeast is gone! Sweet! Also happy to hear that your vet is willing to do blood tests. Her cause for waiting sounds reasonable enough, and it seems as though she is quite thorough. Guess we'll have to wait a bit longer to know how things are looking inside for Cairo.

I'm really hoping that he doesn't have either a bladder or liver issue. It can be tough with ekkies who are on a fresh diet, since their droppings tend to be more watery due to the greater concentration of water in their meals than a bird on pellets. Here is a link to an excellent thread by one of our members who put together a bunch of photos of common issues we sometimes run into wit birds. Very informative, and the sections on droppings might be particularly helpful to you right now: http://www.parrotforums.com/general-health-care/48146-photo-informative-collages.html

 

[Keatz]

Hi, Stephen. I hadn't been on for a while -- I guess because Oscar's been mostly well (though, he's going through a very heavy molt at the moment).
I really enjoyed talking to Laurella. She was very helpful and supportive.
When I read about eclectus, like Cairo, having similar experiences, I can really empathise with their owners. Toe tapping is such a confounding condition; there's not always an easy fix.
Oscar's had a couple of minor toe tapping episodes, which have lasted a night or two, since his last major episode almost six months ago. In one case, I know what caused it -- someone was feeding him Corn Flakes, and I read on the box that they contain added vitamins. Another episode, I just didn't know what caused it; he's on a fairly strict diet with no vitamised of fortified food. Fortunately, though, when he has these minor episodes, they only occur while he's sleeping and they don't seem to disrupt his sleep. They're only a nuisance to me if he decides to sleep in my room, because when his toe taps, it makes a loud noise.
Anyway, I was wondering how Jolly has been since his episode. Has he had any relapses? I hope he's well.

 

[Anansi]

Glad to hear things have been going so well with Oscar! What advice did Laurella wind up giving you about Oscar's particular situation?

As for Jolly, thankfully he hasn't tapped a toe or flipped a wing since. He's back to his usual, hyperactive self. Thanks for asking!

 

[Keatz]

That's great news that Jolly is back to his hyper-active self.
I sent Laurella the video I posted a while back. We discussed what Oscar had been eating and his history. She seemed certain that in Oscar's case, the toe tapping and leg spasms were related to his diet. She said that added vitamins in his food were slowly building up in his liver over time until his body could not take it anymore, resulting in muscles spasms. She suggested I cut the pellets out of his diet and anything else containing added vitamins, including pasta and bird seed (the commercial seed around here is vitamised).
Since I've cut pellets out of Oscar's diet, I've noticed a big improvement in his health.

 

[Anansi]

I'm so happy for Oscar! What brand of pellets?