Transporting birds in unpressurized aircraft?

[Jazzop]

Does anyone have any information regarding the transport of birds in unpressurized aircraft?

Maximum altitude?

Rates of climb/descent?

I am a general aviation pilot and I thought about taking my Amazon with me on some trips so that we get more time together instead of leaving him home alone.

 

[SilverSage]

Hmmm... My first thought is ABSOLUTELY NOT. My second thought is... Find pilots who have birds and ask them.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Why not have your bird accompany you in a travel crate right next to you if you're the aviation pilot?

Food for thought: Where will you house her once you have landed? The travel crate is for short time solutions only.

 

[Birdman666]

Well climb and descent wouldn't matter but altitude certainly would.

Hypoxia begins to set in for us at 15,000 feet. I can tell you that I've had to use oxygen on my 18,000 foot skydives. And we weren't even above 15,000 all that long. There have been times when we've overshot the drop zone, and had to circle the airfield for 15 minutes AT 15,000 feet. I haven't so much been hypoxic as I have noticed that by the time we got back around, I was breathing harder... So, another 15 minutes or so, and I might have been.

Their air sacs are more efficient than our lungs are, but I still wouldn't take a bird to or above 15,000 ever, and 12,000 and below is probably preferable. In fact, I'd stay at 10,000 if I could.

As I recall, pressurization systems are set at 8,000 feet, are they not?! So, that is an altitude that we know is absolutely always safe. (Unless there are thunderstorms between point A, and point B. And if I try to go over them I kill my bird.) But I'd absolutely cut it off at 12,000 if I had a bird with me.

The guy who skydives with the hawk routinely takes that bird to 12,000... and they freefall together.

So, 12,000 appears to be okay. But I am just giving you my best guess here. I've never done it myself, nor do I know anyone who has.

(But if I had a plane, it sounds like something I'd do.)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vfLDIvBGXE"]Willing To Fly - Peregrine Falcon - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Captsteve]

I have had some of my birds as high as 10,000 ft in a RV, not a plane. They seemed totally unfazed and it was an extended period. (camping for a week.) 12k seems to be a safe ceiling.

 

[Birdman666]

Found your answer on another website talking about vet advice for pet travel in unpressurized aircraft. The answer was:

"The vet says "keep it to 10,000 feet if possible."

Which would make sense to me. And is not too far out of line with my guesstimate.

 

[Scott]

As Mark posted, most airliner pressurization systems do not exceed 8000', so the guidance of 10,000 maximum seems logical.

My biggest concern for parrots travelling in unpressurized GA aircraft would be to avoid rapid descents. While raptors conduct terminal velocity dives, not sure if parrots have evolved to manage rapid pressure increases.

A potential danger is the use of cabin heat. Most GA single engine aircraft warm the cabin by directing air across the engine exhaust manifolds. Any cracks or imperfections can fill the cabin with carbon monoxide. For this reason many place disposable disc-type detectors on the instrument panel.

Many years ago I flew an Air Force officer with a falcon (USAF mascot) tethered to his hand. Stunning bird, huge talons! He mentioned the bird leaned forward during takeoff but took the trip in stride.

 

[Jazzop]

Thanks to everyone for the info.

I'd like to add that the planes I fly are naturally aspirated, so their engines can't breathe well at high altitudes either. Plus I don't want to deal with oxygen tanks, so that restricts me below 12,500 feet by regulation.

Measurable hypoxic effects in healthy humans occur as low as 5000 feet, as the FAA likes to teach. For us it starts out as mostly just brain fog and degraded night vision, but I have no idea what hypoxia does to a parrot.

I haven't flown a plane that didn't have a CO detector on the panel. I'm aware of the propensity for Cessna exhausts manifolds to kill you silently. I certainly wouldn't want my bird to be the proverbial canary in the coal mine!

If I decide to take my buddy on a flying trip (he always seems to have a great time in the car), I use a small cage, not a travel crate. It's cramped, but he at least has a comfy perch and a good view. He mostly spends trips hanging upside down anyway, which is his standard fun-time posture.

 

[Birdman666]

Thanks to everyone for the info.

I'd like to add that the planes I fly are naturally aspirated, so their engines can't breathe well at high altitudes either. Plus I don't want to deal with oxygen tanks, so that restricts me below 12,500 feet by regulation.

Measurable hypoxic effects in healthy humans occur as low as 5000 feet, as the FAA likes to teach. For us it starts out as mostly just brain fog and degraded night vision, but I have no idea what hypoxia does to a parrot.

I haven't flown a plane that didn't have a CO detector on the panel. I'm aware of the propensity for Cessna exhausts manifolds to kill you silently. I certainly wouldn't want my bird to be the proverbial canary in the coal mine!

If I decide to take my buddy on a flying trip (he always seems to have a great time in the car), I use a small cage, not a travel crate. It's cramped, but he at least has a comfy perch and a good view. He mostly spends trips hanging upside down anyway, which is his standard fun-time posture.

That's one of those things that the FAA teaches, but frankly, if it were true, why then are aircraft pressurization systems set to 8,000 feet?!

[Sound of FAA crickets chirping.] The fact that it's theoretically medically possible for some human being somewhere on the face of the planet to become hypoxic at 5,000 feet, makes that the standard they teach... How applicable that is to people who fly all day long, I don't really know.

So many of the FARS are just completely unrealistic and out of line with reality. I personally think this is one of them.

I've jumped from 12,500 all day long and noticed zero effects from it, (other than a huge smile at the end of the day.)

I do know from experience that 15,000 is where I've begun to noticably feel it, inexplicably breathing hard on jump run and such. (And not because I was nervous or anything. Shortness of breath due to less oxygen in the air.) And the climb out from 15,000 to 18,000 only took a few minutes, but we needed oxygen.

 

[Birdman666]

As Mark posted, most airliner pressurization systems do not exceed 8000', so the guidance of 10,000 maximum seems logical.

My biggest concern for parrots traveling in unpressurized GA aircraft would be to avoid rapid descents. While raptors conduct terminal velocity dives, not sure if parrots have evolved to manage rapid pressure increases.

Many years ago I flew an Air Force officer with a falcon (USAF mascot) tethered to his hand. Stunning bird, huge talons! He mentioned the bird leaned forward during takeoff but took the trip in stride.

Most GA descents aren't all that rapid, unless you are flying a jump plane, and put it in a dive to land ahead of the people you just offloaded, and load up the next batch... but most skydive pilots are as nutty as we are...

Yeah, the body armor they use with a falcon is not for show purposes. And the grip/crush strength of a falcon is amazing!

 

[Birdman666]

What's really freaky is when you're pulling heavy G's and you start to see spots... and the numbers on the dial start becoming hard to read.

My most amazing toy jump ever another one of those vertical inverted spin numbers, I was pulling so many G's that I couldn't read the numbers on my altimeter anymore. I just saw the white, yellow and red. And black spots where the numbers were supposed to be...

When the dial hit the edge of the yellow, I knew it was break off altitude. (Yellow on my altimeter begins at 4,000 ft.) My air speed indicator read average speed of 206.5 on that one. Inflatable T-REX. Probably my most amazing toy jump ever. And probably the furthest I ever pushed the envelope.

Unless you count that whole wing walk thing... that nobody logged, and nobody got on video, so technically it never actually happened, and, therefore, we didn't violate any FAA regulations AT ALL that day! NOPE. Just a normal 18,000 ft. skydive. Nothing at all unusual happened that day.

 

[Birdman666]

My understanding of parrots is that they were built to function at higher altitudes than we are. They are LESS sensitive to hypoxia because their air sacs process oxygen more efficiently than our lungs do...

Which is also what makes them so much MORE sensitive to airborne contaminants, contagions, pollutants, and poisons. That is why things that wouldn't affect us at all, like teflon, heavily scented products, etc., will kill them.

It doesn't mean they won't get affected by it if you take them way up there, but we will generally black out before they do. It's a REVERSE canary in the coal mine.

"Well, isn't that just lovely, the pilot just passed out... " Hey, buddy, wake up, open the door. I don't need this tin can. I'll go the rest of the way on my own...

 

[Scott]

Don't get me started on the inanity of Federal Air Regulations! Many are rooted in technologies and beliefs more than half a century old, and are terribly difficult to change.

Aircraft pressurization is not specifically set to 8000' but rather a function of differential pressure pumped into the cabin by the systems, and expelled through the outflow valve near the tail. The goal is to maintain a typical differential of 8 PSI. In the Airbus A-320, this means an 8000' cabin at an altitude of 39,000', a 7,000' cabin at 35,000', a 3,000' cabin at 25,000', and sea-level pressure 24,000' and below. I once flew a ratty Jetstream regional aircraft that had known cracks in the forward pressure bulkhead; the expensive solution was to replace the bulkhead, the practical choice was to restrict the differential to 2.5 PSI! We had a nearly 10,000' cabin at typical altitudes of 15,000', and more than one pilot in poor conditioning would get tired and occasionally nod off! This is key; what affects one person would barely be noticed by another. The regulations try to establish a generalized altitude limit for all.

Now you know why folks often have alcohol tolerance issues during long airline flights! Slower metabolism due to reduced oxygen content coupled with copious drinking can lead to newsworthy outbursts. An infamous incident years ago during a flight either to/from Brazil had a frequent flyer climbing on a food-service cart and defecating in public! Food service was terminated for the duration, and he was arrested on arrival.

A typical GA descent would be a reasonably comfortable 500 to 700 foot-per-minute descent. At times it can be necessary to increase substantially to a 1200, 1500, or greater rate for short periods. This would be my concern with parrots; you and I can unplug our ears by pinching our nose and blowing, not sure if parrots are similarly affected. Perhaps not at all!

 

[Birdman666]

Now you know why folks often have alcohol tolerance issues during long airline flights! Slower metabolism due to reduced oxygen content coupled with copious drinking can lead to newsworthy outbursts. An infamous incident years ago during a flight either to/from Brazil had a frequent flyer climbing on a food-service cart and defecating in public! Food service was terminated for the duration, and he was arrested on arrival.

Yeah, well, having been to Brazil at Carnaval, ummm... there were kind of a lot of people acting the exact same way, and it was actually considered somewhat "normal."

Thanks for the clarification on that one. I've never actually messed with pressurization systems, and apparently didn't fully grasp how they worked.

The planes we jump out of are obviously not pressurized...

The FAA is usually up in skydiver operators grills... as we are the people most likely to be doing blatantly stupid things in (and out of) aircraft.

 

[SailBoat]

I knew that this was going to be a great post when I first saw it. Loved Birdman666's video.

Know a couple who are snowbirds and have a twin engine turbo prop - fly to and from the keys from western Michigan multiple times from mid-fall thru late-spring. Their YN Amazon loves it. He also lean forward on take-offs and also lifts his wings (not full spread). I think they are running a pressurized cabin.

 

[Birdman666]

Probably a Beech King Air. I'm guessing.

 

[SailBoat]

You know your air craft, its a 250. Rode it locally three times. Next time, I will see if I can get my DYH on-board.

 

[Jazzop]

That's one of those things that the FAA teaches, but frankly, if it were true, why then are aircraft pressurization systems set to 8,000 feet?!

Probably a compromise between structural rigidity of the pressure vessel and weight savings needed for the A/C to be useful. You can have a cabin altitude of sea level, as long as you build the plane like a hyperbaric brick s---house. Another factor may be the need to keep the differential between actual altitude and cabin altitude within a physiologically safe range in the event of explosive decompression. Perhaps the extra 8000 feet makes the critical difference between the occupants just passing out vice dying of an air embolism when a window breaks? Or maybe it's just tradition based on some antiquated standard set by the USAF in the 1950s (there are a lot of those). Remember, it's easier for A/C to be certified based on existing data than to demonstrate new technology to the FAA's satisfaction. Otherwise, we'd all be flying something built by Burt Rutan. Anyway, the 8000ft standard is being challenged by folks like Gulfstream, whose G650 has a cabin altitude of 3000ft at FL410!

The fact that it's theoretically medically possible for some human being somewhere on the face of the planet to become hypoxic at 5,000 feet, makes that the standard they teach... How applicable that is to people who fly all day long, I don't really know.

It's about awareness, recognition, and decision-making. I think it's grand that they don't make us buy O2 for flights above 5000 ft. But they teach it so we are duly warned to take that into account.

I've personally noted some mild effects on a long flight (3.5 hrs) at 11,500 and on a shorter segment at 12,500 (<30 mins, of course!). Just enough to make the literature real for me.

 

[Scott]

Probably a compromise between structural rigidity of the pressure vessel and weight savings needed for the A/C to be useful. You can have a cabin altitude of sea level, as long as you build the plane like a hyperbaric brick s---house. Another factor may be the need to keep the differential between actual altitude and cabin altitude within a physiologically safe range in the event of explosive decompression. Perhaps the extra 8000 feet makes the critical difference between the occupants just passing out vice dying of an air embolism when a window breaks? Or maybe it's just tradition based on some antiquated standard set by the USAF in the 1950s (there are a lot of those). Remember, it's easier for A/C to be certified based on existing data than to demonstrate new technology to the FAA's satisfaction. Otherwise, we'd all be flying something built by Burt Rutan. Anyway, the 8000ft standard is being challenged by folks like Gulfstream, whose G650 has a cabin altitude of 3000ft at FL410!

At one time an 8000' cabin was likely a compromise between the structural stresses of multiple cycles per day over an economic 25 year lifespan without drastic overhaul of the pressure vessel, and passenger/crew comfort.

The Boeing 787 has commercially forged new ground with a 9.4 PSI allowing a 6000' cabin at a 43,000' cruise altitude thanks to a composite fuselage.

 

[Birdman666]

You know your air craft, its a 250. Rode it locally three times. Next time, I will see if I can get my DYH on-board.

First of all, there are more King Air twin turbines out there, than probably anything else. And it was the IT plane... for the longest time. So, go with the odds.

I used to jump out of a KA90 back in Hollister. Before they switched to a PAC.

When I was in college, back in the 80's, I used to work for Beechcraft out at the Orange County airport. This was when the insurance crisis was at it's beak, and the cost of GA aircraft had just gone through the roof.

So the deal was, people were buying junk King Air's with solid airframes, and updating the avionics, slapping on new engines, and updating the cabin. And for 1/3 the price of a new airplane, they were essentially getting a "like new" airplane.

I did the interior stuff. Pulled stuff off the plane. Stripped paint, that sort of "no skill" manual labor...

But I did get to play with airplanes.

Which for a third generation airplane nut... is always a consideration.