Unpredictable Biting Emerging, from normally very sweet bird. Can anyone help?

[dooglek]

I have a very sweet crimson bellied conure. She is three years old and I’ve had her for two and a half years. I want to preface this by saying I am pretty familiar with how to properly train a bird, I did a LOT of research before getting her and applied what I learned. I understand the importance of positive reinforcement, how punishing or reacting to a bite can backfire, and the principle of the best way to stop biting is to never get bit. 

However Chloe the crimson conure has started biting, and I just do not understand why, or what I should do to prevent it. If anyone can help I would appreciate your advice.

Its started in the past week or so. We have always been super affectionate with her (my girlfriend and I live together with her) and she has always returned affection. She is incredibly gentle, and will preen our hair and ears, and we give her kisses on the beak and she will flick her little tongue on our nose. She’s really cuddley and always wants head scratches. But now I think about four times in the past week, she has just randomly bit me hard enough to draw blood, when seconds before she was being sweet to me as she always was. No behavior on my part has changed, no overexcitement, loud noises, dietary changes, schedule changes, not even any temperature changes, as I know that can sometimes make birds hormonal.

The last two times were the worst, and are what prompted me to make this post. The first time, I was lying in bed and she came up to my face and started flicking her little tongue on my nose affectionately, I was cooing at her and telling her thank you, and she just randomly chomped down on my nose as hard as she could. It was so abnormal for her that I did unfortunately react, I gently picked her up and pulled her off me, and then left the room to look in the mirror (lots of blood). Two days later (tonight) a very similar situation, I slowly gave her a kiss on the head and she gave me some kisses on the nose, and then bit down on my lip and took a piece out. More blood. I am sad to say that I did react again, out of frustration (and honestly my feelings were hurt) and I picked her up and put her in the other room, so I could be away from her for a second.

I know its possible the drama and attention may be reinforcing this behavior, so I am doing my best to stop reacting, but I don’t understand how this behavior emerged in the first place. And it’s happened so quickly.


Does anyone have any tips, experience, or advice?


Thank you so much to anyone who took the time to read and respond.

 

[T00tsyd]

First of all stop giving her privileges. She has done it twice? Both times on your face so from now on however sweet she seems to be being she doesn't come near your face, in fact I would suggest no 'on person' privileges until she has learned that biting is unacceptable.

I had this with Syd before 2 years old and spent several weeks covered from head to foot, gloves, hoodie, long sleeves until he realised. There must be a reason, jealousy, hormones? I don't know but for a while limit her to perching at a distance, hands only. Be prepared for a bite there too perhaps. Is she getting enough rest? 10-12 hours in a quiet darkened place but don't allow any dark corners, snuggling during the day. She doesn't need any places where she can get broody. I would suggest you go back to basics. Don't allow any pressure with the beak. Put her away somewhere neutral and walk away and ignore her. Let her come back to you rather than you return to her.

In a flock biting would involve banishment and she would have to work her way back before acceptance. You need to replicate that. Others with better experience than me will be by soon I am sure but my first reaction would be to stop the cuddling kisses etc. She is possibly frustrated. You are the parent not the best friend or potential mate. It may be that she is expecting more from you than you can give.

 

[Flboy]

Hormones! Hang in there and , as you said, don’t reinforce the negatives!
Read and reread this!

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

Also, do a search on MonicaMC+hormones!

 

[chris-md]

I half agree with you David, hormones came to mind and still remain top of mind, but as a point of discussion, doesn’t the timing seem a bit off to you for a conure? One would assume they’d have shown up some months ago And abated by now. It’s summer time, after all.

Dooglek, where in this wild world are you located? And have you noticed any other unusual/abnormal behaviors?

When was the last time your bird has been seen by a certified avian vet (CAV)?

 

[noodles123]

Always take a bird to the vet if there is a sudden change in behavior...

That having been said, as a non-vet, I am going to GUESS hormones too. Hormone "season" can be year-round in a captive bird...Yes, certain times of the year tend to show magnified incidents, but a bird in a climate controlled house who is sexually stimulated or triggered by the environment can be in a PERPETUAL breeding state...if you control your bird's environment and triggers really well, then maybe you only see this 1-2x yearly, but in a home it isn't like the wild...there is no "timing" if things are triggering it...it may get even worse at certain times, but there are parrots who have no partners who lay eggs and regurgitate and do all sorts of hormonal stuff (some very subtle) year-round because of their history, environmental factors and human interaction styles.

As to the changes, excluding medical issues, think of the difference between a new-born baby and a 16-year-old you...who was nicer? LOL

Now, imagine how you acted around girls/boys you REALLY liked, only add to that the fact that you are a bird whose job is to reproduce ASAP (unlike a 16-year-old)..and your are in a home which is the opposite of the wild where you could get a lot of that energy out by flying 40 miles a day ...and by petting certain ways and due to weird shadowy indoor lighting, you are basically surrounded by the equivalent of what some teenage boys hide under their beds (rhymes with thorn)...lol? **trying to keep this PG***

Pet on the head and neck only (forever), ABSOLUTELY NO SHADOWY SPACES--no boxes, no bedding, no huts/tents, no hollows, no drawers, no under furniture, no in clothing, no couches/pillows, no shadowy spots in your hair or on your lap...10-12 hours of sleep on a nightly schedule (very important-forever)...no warm or mushy foods until this calms down.

Make sure all of the people interacting with your bird follow these rules and make sure you also consider your reaction to the behavior, because while the root may be hormonal, it doesn't change the fact that your reaction could make the behavior more likely to increase in the future...For instance, a 16-year-old boy is mad and says something stupid to his friends in a moment of hormonal rage..some "cool kid" comes and high-fives him for it....he may do it again, despite the fact that he was inspired to do it by a mix of hormones and environmental factors, but the environmental response can reinforce it further...

 

[chris-md]

but a bird in a climate controlled house who is sexually stimulated or triggered by the environment can be in a PERPETUAL breeding state...if.

This VERY broad and definitely an...unconventional claim for most species. You’re missing some serious key nuances and distinctions where it comes to hormones that I think are leading you to some specious conclusions.

 

[noodles123]

but a bird in a climate controlled house who is sexually stimulated or triggered by the environment can be in a PERPETUAL breeding state...if.

This VERY broad and definitely an...unconventional claim for most species. You’re missing some serious key nuances and distinctions where it comes to hormones that I think are leading you to some specious conclusions.

No it's not-- you can have a bird that is hormonal year-round. I don't know what to say to prove this. Obviously, these hormonal swings are amplified during certain seasons, but I could make my cockatoo quiver if I touched her the right way RIGHT NOW...

A stimulated bird is a stimulated bird...I have also watched conures and macaws behave similarly (out of season)..Breeders BREED birds at various times of the year because, again, stimulation is stimulation...

A home environment is SO different from nature, and while they still seem to pick up the light patterns through the windows, there are breeders who artificially induce mating etc by altering humidity, lighting, food supply, nesting availability etc....so, I stand by what I said..this happens often and lots of re-homing happens at times other than the spring etc, and much of it is due to out of control hormones..If a sexually mature bird is getting touched (sexually) and running on 7-9 hours a night of sleep (or less) and has access to shadowy spaces and snuggle huts, plus tons of crap food that is high in fat, YOU WILL see behaviors in 99% of cases (no matter what time of year).

In the wild, a bird isn't going to send mating signals to another bird out-of-season, but humans do it all the time...Birds don't treat other birds sexually without the intent to mate..humans do without knowing it.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZsVT5i6pv8"]YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://youtu.be/OJs-cAIxFzY?t=202"]YouTube[/ame] (start at 2:49 to 4:28) on this video)

 

[chris-md]

You do t know how to prove “any bird can breed at any point in the year”.

Eclectus by nature don’t have define breeding seasons. Conures do. You aren’t going to induce a conure ti breeding by petting them inappropriately during the off season.

Unless you know something conure breeders don’t?

Like I said, you’re missing some basics and nuances that render your statement fallacious on its face.

 

[noodles123]

You do t know how to prove “any bird can breed at any point in the year”.

Eclectus by nature don’t have define breeding seasons. Conures do. You aren’t going to induce a conure ti breeding by petting them inappropriately during the off season.

Unless you know something conure breeders don’t?

Like I said, you’re missing some basics and nuances that render your statement fallacious on its face.

Again, I disagree. Get a bird and sexually stimulate it on a daily basis and I think you will find that they can rise to the occasion (don't actually do this, but if you did, you would see that for many, it is possible, if they see you as a mate)...
Even if they do not breed, you can make a bird get all sorts of "worked up" with the right touching etc and providing dark spaces...
You tell me why female birds can get egg-bound during the off-season if they are so restricted to these few months...and why so often, excessive screaming etc stops when people stop touching their birds sexually and remove dark spaces....at any time during the year...I am not saying there are NO other causes-- obviously there are, but so frequently, in an adult bird, adjusting hormonal triggers solves a ton, regardless of the month in which the behavior is occurring.

I don't know how to PROVE it aside from the tons of research that already exists...I mean, how else can I?....I am not going to get a bird just so that I can mess it up, but if the research and stats on egg-laying etc aren't enough, that is the only other option..Lupron is given year-round too (in parrots outside of season)...Now, why would a vet do that if it weren't hormonal? Lupron is a hormonal mitigation...

Think about this logically...Think about how this works with humans (it's just how bodies work--not trying to be gross, but it's biology--certain things cause certain reactions)....I cannot say more than that, but by bringing birds into our homes, we change a lot of things...we change the temperature, lighting, food supply, humidity, and then we (as perceived "mates") also impact them when we behave as though it is "mating" season...A wild bird will never touch a bird sexually outside of season, but human "mates" will....plus, food supply is generally scarce outside of mating season (not so in a home)...

Year-round, regardless of species, there are egg-binding issues (on this forum and in vet's offices). Eggs are not going to just manifest out of thin air.
If YOU haven't had these issues with your bird, maybe it is because you aren't breaking all of the rules, and if you are, it may be due to age, species, or the individual, but my point is, this stuff on sex and hormones is pretty common knowledge...You shouldn't provide dark spaces or touch a bird sexually for more than a few seconds (no matter the time of year).

 

[dooglek]

Thank you SO much everyone for the responses. This is all helpful.

Chris-md, I am in Northern California. The last time Chloe saw a vet was about a year ago. Do you think this is worth a trip to the vet? Her behavior otherwise has been completely normal.

And to answer a few questions in the thread, and to also to acknowledge some possible causes:

I NEVER pet her anywhere besides the head. Every once and awhile under the wing. She's tried to scooch into me a few times, but I of course try to distract her and give her a toy as soon as that starts.

She does have a cozy hut that she sleeps in. I know these are controversial but the breeder I bought from gave me one, and Chloe has always loved it and slept in it. Should I remove this? She has her own room she sleeps in, with a smaller cage with the cozy hut in it. We always keep a really dim night light in there (she's afraid and agitated by the dark) but her cage is almost completely covered so its super dark in there even with the night light.
HOWEVER we've always struggled to get her to sleep 12 hours. She has eternal and overwhelming FOMO. If we put her to bed early, if even a pin drops she's at the door scratching at it trying to get out. Whenever we get up, the second she hears us walk by she's squawking or chewing on the door trying to get out.

Perhaps this could be related to quarantine... Before my girlfriend and I were both working, so on a regular basis she was alone in the house for at least a few hours, and could nap. Now that were home all the time, she still naps, but probably not as often. Perhaps she's sleep deprived?

Some more information about Chloe: She is flighted, and is never caged. When we leave, she hangs in the bedroom, which has been bird proofed and has plenty of perches and toys.
Her diet is Harrisons pellets, along with fresh fruits and veggies. She also gets small seeds throughout the day when she poops in her designated poop perches.

So for now I am definitely not going to let her near my face, or ride on my shoulder (which ive already been doing out of fear/my feelings are still hurt lol) and will probably remove her cozy hut. Should I be trying to force her to sleep more? Putting her to bed earlier even if she complains hearing us still up?

Thank you again to everyone for all the help, im incredibly grateful!

 

[LaManuka]

As the mother of a hormonally-raging little lorikeet, let me tell you I feel your pain, in the most physical and emotional senses!

Many members have reported unusual behaviour in their birds since this whole COVID lockdown/quarantine situation has hit and a number of them have also had issues with infertile egg-laying, which is what I am strenuously trying to avoid right now with my little hen. Anything you can do to reduce the number of triggers is a good thing, so yes I think you should remove the snuggle hut thingy as they can be a major hormonal trigger. Plus they can be dangerous if your bird chews on it and ingests the synthetic fibres that can cause blockage of the gastro-intestinal tract. Chloe may grumble for a day or two about it but she really doesn't need it.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to go for a wellness check with your vet if you can since as you say it's been at least a year. Changes in your bird's behaviour may just be a sexual maturity/hormonal thing but sometimes it is an indicator of something else. Not wishing to alarm you of course, but a hands-on, eyes-on exam by an avian health professional would be the best way to work out for sure what's going on.

I wish you all the best for a good outcome with Chloe

 

[chris-md]

You actually just tried to compare conure sexual behavior to that of humans :headwall: This just became divorced from reality, and has lost my interest.

 

[noodles123]

You actually just tried to compare conure sexual behavior to that of humans :headwall: This just became divorced from reality, and has lost my interest.

Agree to disagree! Happy 4th! Maybe you you feel less angry if you go blow up some fireworks.

but a bird in a climate controlled house who is sexually stimulated or triggered by the environment can be in a PERPETUAL breeding state...if.

This VERY broad and definitely an...unconventional claim for most species. You’re missing some serious key nuances and distinctions where it comes to hormones that I think are leading you to some specious conclusions.

You do t know how to prove “any bird can breed at any point in the year”.

Eclectus by nature don’t have define breeding seasons. Conures do. You aren’t going to induce a conure ti breeding by petting them inappropriately during the off season.

Unless you know something conure breeders don’t?

Like I said, you’re missing some basics and nuances that render your statement fallacious on its face.

Here's he proof you wanted!

a vet wrote this:

"Many psittacine owners observe behaviors that range from cute to puzzling. These may in-clude intense bonding, constant egg laying, paper shredding, cavity seeking, loud vocalizations or fierce territoriality. In some instances, these behaviors may occur seasonally and have little impact on the bird's general health. In other cases, these behaviors progress from seasonal to year round and can have a very serious impact on the bird's health. Some of these behaviors, like protracted egg-laying, are obviously driven by reproductive hormones. A myriad of other behaviors, some subtle and some puzzling, may also be related to reproductive hormonal events."

Here is another source (quoting a doctor) https://summer2018.iaabcjournal.org/2018/07/21/diet-and-behavior-in-companion-parrots/:

"Dr. Sharman Hoppes also draws this link between diet and behavior: “Behavioral problems that can be related to reproductive issues include feather picking, mutilation, and excessive screaming. These behaviors can also occur for other reasons, so a full evaluation must be done to determine the cause. Behavioral problems are most common in hand-raised parrots overly bonded to their owners.” She continues: “In captivity, most pet birds are kept all year at stable temperatures and are provided adequate food, which is often high in fat. This can promote breeding behavior year-round.”

and another:
"While these behaviors may happen only seasonally in the beginning, they can progress in some individuals until they occur year round. In many cases, they lead to problems such as feather damaging behavior, self-mutilation, regurgitation of food, masturbation, chronic egg-laying, egg binding and cloacal prolapse. It is not unusual for these behaviors to surface when the parrot is well into adulthood, often coming as a surprise to the owner who has come to take for granted more stable conduct."

and another
"Domestic parrots tend to have completely different environmental and lifestyle experiences than their wild cousins, resulting in physical and behavioral problems. Caretakers innocently make decisions that mess with the birds’ sexual hormones. Case in point: expecting your parrot to adapt to your sleep cycle when parrots actually need 10-12 hours of sleep. Couple lack of sleep with other lifestyle and environmental stressors (diet, improper petting, a sedentary lifestyle, or access to nesting materials) and the effect on their body and behavior can be major. We call this a chronically hormonal state and it has unhealthy consequences for your pet"[/B][/I]

and another:
The behaviors that often result from such a diet include intense bonding with one person in the family,
cavity-seeking behavior, paper shredding, loud demanding vocalizations, and fierce territoriality. While
it may be cute initially when a parrot becomes obsessed with getting into dark drawers or closets, or
wants to be with us constantly, these behaviors over time become problematic. And, while these
behaviors may occur only seasonally in the beginning, they can progress in some individuals until they
occur year round, developing into problems such as feather picking or feather barbering, self-mutilation,
chronic egg-laying, egg binding and cloacal prolapse

This is exactly what I said-- in a house where hormonal triggers are well-controlled and sleep is regulated, you are more likely to see your clock-work, 2x yearly hormones..and certain species are worse than others about raging "off the clock", but ANY parrot can get hormonal at ANY time if the setting is conducive.

 

[Ira7]

I would go with hormones.

Damn, you should have seen me starting at 15, and there was no season to it. Hell, it was year round.

We scientifically know that a simple mirror can trigger hormones in birds. Why would we expect that they always follow some schedule determined by man? Especially in artificial environments?

Plus, this bird is two and a half, right?

Duh.

 

[noodles123]

Thank you SO much everyone for the responses. This is all helpful.

Chris-md, I am in Northern California. The last time Chloe saw a vet was about a year ago. Do you think this is worth a trip to the vet? Her behavior otherwise has been completely normal.

And to answer a few questions in the thread, and to also to acknowledge some possible causes:

I NEVER pet her anywhere besides the head. Every once and awhile under the wing. She's tried to scooch into me a few times, but I of course try to distract her and give her a toy as soon as that starts.

She does have a cozy hut that she sleeps in. I know these are controversial but the breeder I bought from gave me one, and Chloe has always loved it and slept in it. Should I remove this? She has her own room she sleeps in, with a smaller cage with the cozy hut in it. We always keep a really dim night light in there (she's afraid and agitated by the dark) but her cage is almost completely covered so its super dark in there even with the night light.
HOWEVER we've always struggled to get her to sleep 12 hours. She has eternal and overwhelming FOMO. If we put her to bed early, if even a pin drops she's at the door scratching at it trying to get out. Whenever we get up, the second she hears us walk by she's squawking or chewing on the door trying to get out.

Perhaps this could be related to quarantine... Before my girlfriend and I were both working, so on a regular basis she was alone in the house for at least a few hours, and could nap. Now that were home all the time, she still naps, but probably not as often. Perhaps she's sleep deprived?

Some more information about Chloe: She is flighted, and is never caged. When we leave, she hangs in the bedroom, which has been bird proofed and has plenty of perches and toys.
Her diet is Harrisons pellets, along with fresh fruits and veggies. She also gets small seeds throughout the day when she poops in her designated poop perches.

So for now I am definitely not going to let her near my face, or ride on my shoulder (which ive already been doing out of fear/my feelings are still hurt lol) and will probably remove her cozy hut. Should I be trying to force her to sleep more? Putting her to bed earlier even if she complains hearing us still up?

Thank you again to everyone for all the help, im incredibly grateful!

yes, I would remove the hut.
My bird has FOMO too-- you need a better sleep space if she can tell what is happening in your house (some some degree)...Just like a toddler.