Can you decide how much to clip?

First of all forgive me if I missed something, but I read quite a few threads on and outside this forum about clipping and didn't really find an answer. I'm fairly new to the parrot world.
I understand both those who advocate the clipping (and that's the only choice in my situation), and those who like to free flight their birds. But one thing I really don't get is when the opponents of clipping say that clipped bird CANNOT fly. I'm wondering if you can choose how much (how short) to clip their wings?
My parrot can fly pretty well with his clipped wings (he came clipped to me as a baby), but I noticed that they are clipped only a little bit - maybe up to an inch from the 2-3 top flight feathers. He can fly through the hallways, from his cage in the living room to the kitchen counter, from outside to the house etc, but it's difficult for him. I still think it is too much of clipping, and I wonder if after the first molt I can ask to clip his wings even less than now? The thing is that he loves flying and I encourage it with treats as well, but I really want him to be safe. There are too many hawks, falcons and ravens in our area… :11:
Is there sort of a median between clipped and free flying birds - the ones that are clipped a bit, but can still fly, just not too far or too fast? I appreciate your answers!

Yes, you can vary the severity of the clip I would caution you however, a "slightly clipped" bird can fly pretty well. My GCC can fly about 15-20 feet from the top of her cage, and steer a bit, as an example (she was clipped when I got her). Just be aware that the right gust of wind can catch your partially/slightly clipped bird and carry them far, far away. That said, if you are just looking to limit mobility in the house, I think it is super-duper to allow as much freedom as possible And yes, there are people very VERY heated on both sides. Best of luck!

Of course! I know MonicaMC made a post a bit ago with some really good links and references, I'm not sure if this is the photo she used, but here's a sort of "chart" for bird clipping: http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s150/lannr/Conures/bird-wing-diagram-clipping.jpg

You definitely don't have to cut the primaries all the way like most people do, you don't even have to cut all the primaries! I know people that take maybe 3-4 primaries and cut them and leave the outside few, so the bird can fly, just not grain altitude as easily and can't fly as far(or as long).
My bird is fully clipped and she still flies pretty easily.. but she's rather light and a keen flier.

Sootie is fully clipped and still flies like a pro. She couldn't be unharnessed outside because she would easily catch a wind and be gone. But even in the house she still flies around fairly well, just isn't as good at manouvering mid air

A clipped bird CAN fly, or at least glide a good distance. Once a bird knows how to fly, they never forget. If you want your bird outside, harness train, use a carrier or have a outdoor cage. IF you have a flighted bird (or even a clipped one who can still fly despite the clip), you should also work on recall training (the bird coming back when you call).

Thank you so much for your replies! I loved the chart. I tried to look closer at how much Parry is clipped, but he hates when I touch his wings (except scratching them from underneath) and just starts screaming. I think he has 4 feathers clipped from both sides. I'm buying an Aviator harness for him so I can take him on walks with me. I've been trying recall training a bit, but for some reason he never lands on me - I dunno why. He would land on the table or floor right next to me, but never on my hand as it is supposed to be. He can maneuver pretty well as he takes curves and lands on very narrow spaces precisely, so that's not the issue. And he sits on my shoulder or head most of the time and shouldn't be afraid of them. So I just get a harness (oh my, I can imagine the struggle I have to go through teaching him to wear it).

Please do not ever feel that a clipped parrot is any safer than a flighted parrot! A properly clipped parrot *CAN STILL FLY*. Even if your clipped bird doesn't end up high in a tree (if he were to get out), he's still going to be in danger. A flighted parrot would have better defenses against birds of prey, dogs, cats, raccoon's and anything else that might go after them simply because the bird *is* flighted. When you clip them, you just took away their best defense against predators and other dangers.


Here's the post where I edited an image showing the different clips. To explain a bit more, if doing the "half clip" (clipping the primaries in half), you can start with 4-6 feathers on each wing and clip 1/4 or more off of the end of the feathers off. With the half clip, you may be able to clip up to 10 feathers, and modify the clip by clipping more of the feather off if need be.

The other option is to clip the 3-4 outside flights from the wings (doing the coverts/quill clips), test how well the bird flies, then clip another 1 on each wing, test flight, clip again, test, etc until you achieve what you want.

http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/43452-ok-bare-me-2.html#post382281




You can always try to "bird proof" your home to help prevent escapes.... here are some ideas!


Front door bird security! - a set on Flickr

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d5Jx-dvux0]Bird-proofing the front door - YouTube[/ame]


Use this at your front/back door as a "safety catch"
Suncatcher Bird Cages : Single Safety Fly Catch large aviary, outdoor aviary, outdoor bird cage


I'm not a big fan of this guy, but he makes some valid points about clipping vs flight.

How to Trim Parrots Wing? Parrot Wing Clipping Alternatives Explained


And this one lists pros and cons of each side.

Should you clip your parrot



Please understand that free-flight is not the same as allowing flight. Free-flight is the process of training flighted parrots to fly outside without restraints. It's akin to off-leash training for dogs. Allowing flight is more akin to a leashed dog - allowed to be free inside the home, but if you were to take the animal anywhere, the animal would be restrained in some manner.

All seven of my parrots are flighted, but not one of them is free-flight trained.



Check out these two threads which have photos of clipped parrots flying.

http://www.parrotforums.com/alexandrines/27991-true-clipped-birds-can-fly.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/alexandrines/28022-photos-ozzie-clipped-alexandrine-flying.html


Here's a B&G with a "show clip" in flight.....

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net...720/1013562_10151445114766199_634716886_n.jpg


And not to forget the Youtube clip of the same macaw flying......


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Pv4pMu9Nc"]My macaw, Jikko, flying - YouTube[/ame]






Kiwibird is correct. If you want to have the best chance of retrieving your bird if he ever gets outside, then work on recall training! Not only just recalling, but recalling from various heights. As odd as this may sound, parrots can be afraid to fly down! It's easy to fly up, but flying down is very scary, and this is how a lot of parrots get stuck up high! And, get him used to a variety of environments! The more comfortable and confident your bird is, the more likely he is to fly to you in a strange or unknown environment, including outside!



If you are going to continue clipping, then please do so after researching the pros and cons of each side - both from a flight vs clip standpoint as well as a training standpoint. (Flighted parrots aren't necessarily harder to train as long as you train them right! And just because they are flighted does not make them any more difficult to handle than a clipped bird! Clipped parrots are actually more likely to bite than flighted parrots are.)

Oh, and in regards to recall training, it's basically a modified step up. If he doesn't know how to fly to you on command, then ask for something that he can do, or is something that is easy to teach! And that's step up. Don't push into his stomach or chest, don't pry his feet up, simply present your finger and ask him to step up. If he doesn't understand what you want, you may need to target train him or lure him (using food) onto your hand.

Once he understands step up, you can increase the distance that he has to "step up". It'll be a step up, a long step up, a step up with beak, a step up with a hop, a step up with a flap, a step up with a couple of flaps, and so forth. If at any point he is hesitant or balks, then go back a step!



After teaching recall, it helps to teach them to fly back to a perch or cage, too! Basically same behavior, but in reverse.

MonicaMc said:

Please do not ever feel that a clipped parrot is any safer than a flighted parrot!

Click to expand...

Monica, I cannot really agree with this. If I'm taking Parry out on a sunny day to our fully fenced large backyard with no big trees I know for sure that even if he flies off he would just land on the patio or on the grass. I know when he flies I can run after him at the same speed that he flies or even faster. I know that there is no way he can make it flying over the fence to the street which is about 100 ft away from my patio. Except for hawks I feel he is completely safe with me outside, and even the hawks are wary of humans. It would be totally different if he was fully flighted and just took off into nowhere… And at home I can keep the doors open when I want and also not fear him smashing into our big mirrors or windows. So there is a BIG difference.

You are right - I should do more of the recall training, and I did this like you described starting with stepping up, but he NEVER flies on me! Today I hold my arm just less than 1 ft from him and he took off, froze in the air above my arm, them landed on the floor right next to me and climbed up my pants to my shoulder. LOL This kinda stuff happens with variations all the time, but I've been not really consistent with this training. I have one guess why he might do this - he knows I hate when he poos on me and tries to poo elsewhere, but he always has to poo right after flight, so he is probably afraid to land on me because of this. I might be wrong, but that's the only explanation I could come up with.

Adrenaline can give birds speed. Adrenaline with a breeze can give a bird lift.




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzyZGdMp9kM"]Parrot Training - Indoor Free Flying - DUCK!! Pet Parrot Free flight Skills and Myths - YouTube[/ame]





If you are unwilling to believe that even clipped that he can't get away from you, then what about enclosing your backyard with aviary netting? That way, you can take him outside without worry of him taking off anyway, as long as the netting (or wire) is properly secured, as well as any other potential way he could get out is closed off.

If you want it bad enough, you?ll find a way to make it work! | Lara Joseph





As far as asking him to fly to you when you are 1' away, try 1/2 a foot away. Try using millet or his favorite treats to encourage him to fly to you. I was actually able to get 5 adult, flighted untamed budgies to fly to me for food, as well as getting 4 cockatiels of various tameness (all adults) to fly to me. I didn't take it any further than that, although I am sure I could have if I had wanted to. It was so easy!


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUx81WHTUwk"]1 Bird in hand Leads to Many - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSm4uFZzVU"]More Budgies!!!! - YouTube[/ame]



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88bN30qOjo"]Sunshine in the Morning - YouTube[/ame]



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9w9w8nMRmw"]Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH9ZWxhCSAE"]Not So Hesitant Faye - YouTube[/ame]



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjKmHswgiHs"]Cockatiel Feeding - April 24th - YouTube[/ame]




Please understand, the last thing I want to hear is that he somehow escaped (clipped or flighted!) and he's lost outside and you can't get him!

Wow, that's impressive how you trained your birds! I should try doing something too! I think the bird personality is a big factor here too. My parrot is very, very calm and quiet bird, sort of an introvert, and if he gets scared he rather clings on me than flies away. But you are right, you never know - once when I started the electric chopper he flew off about 30 ft to the dining room curtain rod! And oh boy, he loved it there and sat on it the whole evening. Most of the time he just quietly perches on me, and flies to his cage when he gets hungry. So far he is not very used to outside and just sits inside the big thick bush on the patio that is his natural plays stand.

Clipping or Free Flight a bird is a personal choice as this is a heated topic that's been discussed countless times!!! There's a way to clip without them being able to fly period, it just depends on how they were clipped. I have clipped hundreds of birds since I used to raise them full time, there are pros and cons on both ends of the spectrum. I do free flight my adults but a clipped wing will always grow back once gone through molt. I have clipped from Budgies to a Macaw, none have flew off from me even with a gust of wind outside. So there's different variances of clip.

There are plenty of answers within the forum if you just use the search option within the forum that will help you with your answer.

Be nice folks!!!!!!!!!

I don't agree with wing clipping and believe that it causes psychological problems and increases the risk of physical injuries to the bird. I know a breeder who refuses to clip wings, told me how to look at it.
The bird uses it's wings to fly away and escape from dangerous or unpleasant situations.
If it can't fly away and escape from these dangerous or unpleasant situations it will bite in defence and/or try to fly away, crash and injure itself.
A bird that was capable of full flight and then snip snip, now only capable of limited flight, will suffer stress. How would you cope psychological, if suddenly you only had limited use of your legs?. Also I sure that you would suffer a few physical injuries while adjusting to your handicap.

How will you gain the bird's trust when you have removed his method of travel and escape. I have seen birds after they have been wing clipped and have never seen one of them happy about it.
The local pet shop had two hand raised Quakers for sale. They were friendly and happy little birds prior to being wing clipped, they were most unhappy afterwards. When I put my hand up to say hello, they both attacked my hand. in fact I would go has far to say they were furious. The change in these birds was enormous.
Instead of clipping the wings, use clicker training.
My Alexandrian is not wing clipped and he comes when called (except when he is eating) turns around, shakes hands, waves and picks up wooden beads and put them in a bin. This was all done using clicker training.

If you are considering clipping your birds wings. Then you need to research and consider all the negatives and positives I think there are many myths to wing clipping such has safety of the bird, easier to train, less time needed to trained and I don't believe one of them.
In fact just recently I came across a video where the breeder said that no bird under the age of 2 years should be wing clipped has their brains are still developing and the removal of flight capabilities has an neurological effect on the developing brain and results in psychological problems. Some of these problems can be aggression, biting, fear, depression, anxiety and a lack of confidence.

If you had the birds best interest then why would you risk your birds mental and physical health. If you want a bird with limited flight capacities then get a ostrich or a emu not a parrot

Delfin said:

......

If you had the birds best interest then why would you risk your birds mental and physical health. If you want a bird with limited flight capacities then get a ostrich or a emu not a parrot

Click to expand...

Comments SUCH as this are the ones we are trying to avoid here.

Perhaps you didn't read Michael's (MikeyTN) reply just before you posted. He said that this is a heated topic, and he said to be nice.

Clipping is a PERSONAL choice, and guardians who go that route should NEVER be condemned or made feel badly. There are PLENTY clipped birds with absolutely NO mental issues.

So I will repeat what Michael already said:

BE KIND TO EACH OTHER. Any further attempts at making people who clip their birds' wings feel badly will be deleted.

Delfin said:

I don't agree with wing clipping and believe that it causes psychological problems and increases the risk of physical injuries to the bird. I know a breeder who refuses to clip wings, told me how to look at it.
The bird uses it's wings to fly away and escape from dangerous or unpleasant situations.
If it can't fly away and escape from these dangerous or unpleasant situations it will bite in defence and/or try to fly away, crash and injure itself.
A bird that was capable of full flight and then snip snip, now only capable of limited flight, will suffer stress. How would you cope psychological, if suddenly you only had limited use of your legs?. Also I sure that you would suffer a few physical injuries while adjusting to your handicap.

How will you gain the bird's trust when you have removed his method of travel and escape. I have seen birds after they have been wing clipped and have never seen one of them happy about it.
The local pet shop had two hand raised Quakers for sale. They were friendly and happy little birds prior to being wing clipped, they were most unhappy afterwards. When I put my hand up to say hello, they both attacked my hand. in fact I would go has far to say they were furious. The change in these birds was enormous.
Instead of clipping the wings, use clicker training.
My Alexandrian is not wing clipped and he comes when called (except when he is eating) turns around, shakes hands, waves and picks up wooden beads and put them in a bin. This was all done using clicker training.

If you are considering clipping your birds wings. Then you need to research and consider all the negatives and positives I think there are many myths to wing clipping such has safety of the bird, easier to train, less time needed to trained and I don't believe one of them.
In fact just recently I came across a video where the breeder said that no bird under the age of 2 years should be wing clipped has their brains are still developing and the removal of flight capabilities has an neurological effect on the developing brain and results in psychological problems. Some of these problems can be aggression, biting, fear, depression, anxiety and a lack of confidence.

If you had the birds best interest then why would you risk your birds mental and physical health. If you want a bird with limited flight capacities then get a ostrich or a emu not a parrot

Click to expand...

"How will you gain the bird's trust when you have removed his method of travel and escape". You gain your birds trust by your bird having to rely on YOU. I can find just as many reasons to clip as YOU can not to clip. "In fact just recently I came across a video where the breeder said that no bird under the age of 2 years should be wing clipped has their brains are still developing and the removal of flight capabilities has an neurological effect on the developing brain and results in psychological problems".
And putting your bird in a cage has NO AFFECT on them what so ever? As far as injuries go, I have had a bird with a broken neck because he got spooked off my shoulder and flew into a wall, I have lost two birds that were hand raised fully grown and flighted birds out of open doors. Now how long do you suppose those birds which have been in captivity all of their natural lives lived on their own without being trained how to forage for their food and what is good to eat and what is bad or dangerous to eat.

I look at wing clipping this way, it's MY responsibility to keep my animals safe and out of harms way as best I can just as I would my children. So please do not try and make someone feel guilty because they feel they are doing what THEY feel is best for their pets.

"In fact just recently I came across a video where the breeder said that no bird under the age of 2 years should be wing clipped has their brains are still developing and the removal of flight capabilities has an neurological effect on the developing brain and results in psychological problems. Some of these problems can be aggression, biting, fear, depression, anxiety and a lack of confidence".

Ooooops silly me, I almost forgot about the above part. Now, I wonder how much research and studying this breeder did for him to know this. It sounds like a bunch of sanctimonious bunk from someone who is educated well beyond their means of intelligence. I believe (no research mind you) just a belief that it could be harmful to clip an older birds wings which have never been clipped and has learned the capability of flight than it would be to clip a young bird which has never learned this capability. NO STUDY done mind you, just a belief.

I bred for over 17 years!!!! IF you think it gives them a complex to clip, like Mike says, what about them being in a cage situation? Although my adults are free flighted, they have NEVER once try to fly, they would rather craw around on the floor to get to me. A few will fly directly on me but that is about it. So basically your not telling me anything that I don't already know nor those self believe breeders that think they know something but it's a personal believe. I have many breeder friends, a couple who I know the longest, they've bred for over 40+ years and have been in all kinds of clubs and association. So tread carefully there when giving me breeder's input cause I know a lot of breeders personally!

Again, be nice folks!!!!

I've decided to close this thread cause it is a topic that have been discussed for countless times and it don't usually end up pretty, please do use the search option to guide you further! Thanks!