A little worried... Need some thoughts!

[Laurasea]

." I think shes frustrated she cant fly, she keeps getting on the floor and putting her hat up like shes upset she wasn't able to get to where she wanted. Poor girl"

That is a symptom, the going to the bottom of the cage..that's not from fat or frustration. I really think it's best to go to the vet school, as there are to many red flags with that other vet sadly.

Also in my opinion , even a grossly over weight bird, would be able to land. They might have trouble getting lift, or flying a long way. But they would still be able to control flight and land. Just like a person who was really overweight couldn't run far, but they wouldn't stumble into things and fall down.

Also I haven't heard you say you got a scale, and have started to weigh every bird, and keep a log. Something easy to do, and I hope you will.

 

[noodles123]

The fact that flight has gotten worse is what concerns me...Has she been very sedentary?
I think that you are smart to consider weight loss, but as others have indicated, there is likely more going on here than just a "fat bird" and a second opinion is certainly wise!

My "Too" is a TERRIBLE flyer (despite fully functional wings and a healthy weight)---but she has always sucked at flying (as far as I know) because she rarely tries and prefers to stomp around and command that others do her bidding instead... she can still land--even though I'm not sure she knows where she is going 1/2 of the time. The point is,your bird was a good flyer and then stopped/lost the ability, which is strange.

 

[YUMgrinder]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been around. I am back. I got the results of her bloodwork, I'll post it, maybe someone with more knowledge can point something out.

She seems the same ol girl. She does prefer to stay in her cage (typical of her) but comes out willingly when I ask her to step up and come out and socialize. She will stay out of her cage if I put her on the playstand, which is connected to her cage so she can go in if she wants even without flight. I put an old shirt on the bottom of the cage to see if it would be more gentle on her feet but she stays away from it so now shes not always on the bottom of the cage. She still forages from time to time like normal. I wouldn't say she was unable to land properly all the time, just sometimes she would crash perhaps she was over exerting herself and didn't have the strength to control her landing. she still tries from time to time, floats to the ground and lands fine. I am still concerned for her and am in contact with the university.

what do you think of the bloodwork?

 

[YUMgrinder]

oh! and yes, I have a scale. Always have had one. I don't weigh them regularly but I should start. I knew chessie wasn't underweight but I had no idea how much more she weighed than suppose to. I def can see the difference in size from my male tiel jazz though.

 

[noodles123]

Did they do the tests for ABV/PDD?
What about an xray and gram-stain?

 

[YUMgrinder]

Did they do the tests for ABV/PDD?
What about an xray and gram-stain?

ummm no. I've explained that my vet doesn't do those type of tests. And he saw no reason to xray since the physical exam was fine. He says there are no tests for PDD and poo smears have been "debunked" and do not provide useful information. So that's where I am at with this.

 

[ChristaNL]

PDD is a basic elisa, so your vet is an "uninformed person" (I am not allowed to write idiot here, so I wont ). But since your lab.result came back complaining about 'small samplesize' he is either working with a not very competent lab or he really is bad at drawing blood safely.
PDD is a tricky one and there are a some false positives and well as negatives floating around (that is why you do multiple tests...) so maybe that is why he doesn't want to be bothered... ?
An X-ray is easy money, so I do not understand that one.

 

[YUMgrinder]

I have no idea whats going on. I can't believe the bloodwork was botched then he told me everything was fine. I'm going back today, and I am demanding a refund and going to CSU

 

[Laurasea]

The sample was hemolized. So bad traumatic blood draw, bruising or multiple sticks, or handled sample poorly, or forced through to small a needle. It means the blood cells were ruptured. That plus small sample size, days they are bad at drawing blood.

 

[ParrotGenie]

PDD is a basic elisa, so your vet is an "uninformed person" (I am not allowed to write idiot here, so I wont ). But since your lab.result came back complaining about 'small samplesize' he is either working with a not very competent lab or he really is bad at drawing blood safely.
PDD is a tricky one and there are a some false positives and well as negatives floating around (that is why you do multiple tests...) so maybe that is why he doesn't want to be bothered... ?
An X-ray is easy money, so I do not understand that one.

Pretty much what it states on second page.

Like I said earlier get a different vet. This guy doesn't know what he doing and maybe a quack. I won't trust him and get a second opinion? Yes do tests for ABV PDD, especially since one of your birds died from this already. Plus gram-stain been debunked? What? This vet is likely a quack and would have just when elsewhere.

 

[YUMgrinder]

He killed cheddar I am sure of it now.

 

[EllenD]

Yumgrinder, this Vet couldn't even do a normal blood draw, he botched it...This is ridiculous now...

You know very well that there is a test, a blood test for PDD, as well as for PBFD, ABV, and pretty much any other avian viral diseases that are applicable here. How do you say cheddar is diagnosed with PDD in the first place? This vet doesn't even know how to do a blood draw and he contaminated the sample by not knowing how to properly take blood in the first place. You also know that fecal smears and fecal testing has not been debunked and is very valuable, you know very well that you can diagnose bacterial, fungal, protozoan, etc. infections from a fecal sample, as well as many many other medical issues. So my question is why in the world are you still concentrating on what this vet did and said? Why haven't you called the university and made an appointment for Chessie yet? I'm confused and worried...is this a denial thing, a fright thing, or an "I give up" thing?

You just had one bird who you loved very much die from confirmed PDD with the last 6 months, and now you've got another bird displaying progressively declining ability to fly, which could very well mean that not only is she sick with an Avian Virus, but that all 7 of your birds are...And you have access to a university with a great avian medical department, yet you haven't taken her yet. And not only that but you're still concentrating and focusing on what that other vet said, and it's all things that you already know are totally false. So I don't get it. The longer you wait, the lesser the chance you have to save not only Chessie's life, but the lives of all of you birds if they do in fact I have some kind of avian virus.

I'm only saying this because I think you need a kick in the butt buddy. I totally understand if you're afraid to find out that more of your birds are sick with a viral disease, but that doesn't mean that they're all going to die. However, if they don't get diagnosed and treated soon they will die, specifically Chessie...
You are intelligent enough and know enough about birds to know that an overweight bird can still fly, and that the ability to fly progressively getting worse and worse overtime has nothing to do with her weight. And you also know that cheddar was very sick and had contact with the rest of your flock. So why are you waiting and still focusing on those blood results? That is just basic blood work and is not going to show anything diagnostic anyway because it's all contaminated due to the vet not knowing how to properly draw blood. So you might as well have full blood work done again after University with an avian vet that knows what they're doing, and just have them add the individual tests for PDD, PBFD, and ABV, are there any other blood tests that the real vet at the University suggest. And that will probably include an x-ray, because Chessie could have a ruptured air sac that's keeping her from flying, she could have a mass or growth keeping her from flying, etc.

I'm sorry that that your first vet trip was a total waste, and I mean a total waste because even the blood work, the basic blood work is worthless. But where I'm confused is why you seem to be agreeing with this Vet that everything is fine, she's not sick, she's just fat, and there is no test for PDD when you know all of this is untrue. By the way, I probably ran over a thousand Elisa kit-tests for PDD when I worked at the avian diagnostic lab Penn State.

Sorry to be so blunt with you, but it's tough love time. I think that you're just scared to find out the truth about what is going on with your bird or birds, and that's why you're not doing anything about this. You obviously concerned or you wouldn't have posted this in the first place, nor tajen her to that first vet... No one here can help you with this anymore except to support you no matter what is really going on, and we will do that, you know that... But it's go time now, and the only thing that is going to be give you the answers you need is taking her to the university. So please forget about that last veterinarian, because that was a ****show, call the University right now, and get her in will complete blood work including the viral tests. That's the only thing that is going to help Chessie, your flock, and you...

 

[EllenD]

He killed cheddar I am sure of it now.

I still hesitate to agree with this, only because of how gravely ill Cheddar was, he was at the end-stages of PDD... However Yumgrinder, I'm much more willing to concede that that Vet may have killed Cheddar instantly, due to something like blood-loss during his blood draw...He obviously has no business even seeing birds, let alone doing ANY procedures on them, and since blood is drawn from one of a bird's two Jugular veins, if you don't know what you're doing you can certainly cause a small bird like a Nanday to bleed to death, especially an already critically ill and already weak Nanday...About 2 teaspoons of blood loss is all it takes to kill a bird that size...

Honestly, if I were you, I would be reporting this Vet to your state Veterinary Board so that he can't hurt or kill any more birds...Just the advice that he gave you could kill a bird indirectly... If he tells someone with no avian experience or education, or no medical experience or basic knowledge, then telling them that "Fecals tests are no longer done because they've been debunked", or that there is no way to test for PDD or other Avian Viruses, or that "Birds don't get ear infections" (that one really pisses me off), he could kill a lot more loved pet birds...You should at least send a well-written, very detailed and inclusive email to the owner/director of that veterinary practice...He just should not be seeing any bird's ever again...

 

[Scott]

Jason, I absolutely agree with Ellen. Words can be the most powerful of tools, and you are very capable. Not only sending feedback to your state Veterinary Board but also using social media such as Yelp. Stick to facts and you should avoid any recrimination.

 

[EllenD]

I actually feel badly for writing my above post, it's been bugging me...I didn't mean to be rude or forward, but I'm honestly really concerned about your birds Yumgrinder...You've been through so much already, I just don't want you to lose another bird, especially not because of an uneducated, untrained Vet who has no business treating or even seeing birds. And if Chessie has something simple like a middle or inner ear infection that is gradually getting worse and worse but that can easily be treated with medications, and she dies from it because of that Vet, I swear I'm driving to Colorado myself and finding that Vet. And then of course so much worse would be if ALL of your birds have a Viral Disease and they all become sick...I just can't imagine you going through that.

And as Scott said, words can do miracles and mean more to people than anything else, and the owner of that Vet Office needs to know the things that his Veterinarians are telling people and the things that he is neglecting to do...They might not even know that he can't even take blood from a bird correctly, they wouldn't unless they look at every single lab report that comes through the office, and that's not typical...You could actually save the lives of a lot of birds by letting them know about this Vet's lack of education and experience with birds and Avian Medicine...He might be the best dog and cat Vet they have, or he might be a top Reptile Specialist in the state...But he's definitely not any kind of Avian Vet...I mean think about this for a minute...Not one single sick bird that this Vet sees is EVER going to have even a Fecal Culture or Microscopy/Gram-Stain done...That's scary, and it's also irresponsible.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I was too forward or harsh in my above post, I was trying not to be, but I did and still do want to get the point across about getting Chessie to have a full exam, Fecal, and Blood-Work that includes tests for PBFD and PDD as soon as possible with a real Avian Vet...I just couldn't take it if you suddenly post that Chessie or any of your other birds have suddenly died again...That would break my heart...

 

[YUMgrinder]

It's cool guys. I made an appt for chessie at the university last week, i spoke with one of the vets, they are able to get me in this coming week, and she said it doesn't sound like an emergency but if something happens that makes it an emergency they can see her earlier. She's been acting normal, a little more active so i am happy for that. Still not able to fly. as far as the vet here in cheyenne, I'm very upset but I haven't decided what to do.

 

[ChristaNL]

So glad she is going to meet a real CAV!


Crazy idea, but why not get ALL you birds tested anyway?
(I understand transport will be difficult, but just get it all over in one big swoop.. not the diseases you want to be messing with.)

 

[Laurasea]

I'm glad you are going to the vet school!!!!! If your pocketbook can support it, I second taking in all your birds for wellness exam and blood work .

 

[YUMgrinder]

probably gonna have to do it in smaller groups. one of the budgies is about to start laying eggs so I'll have to do them last.

 

[YUMgrinder]

too expensive to do all at once. It was about a grand to get chessie and jazz through the testing, plus chessie's xrays. So far all the bloodwork came back fine, no issues there. The pdd panel or whatever hasn't come back yet so I am just waiting on that. They see some thicker bones in her wings, maybe hormonal they said or even cancer. they need to see her later and compare xrays so they can figure out why.

Both tiels were so good during the exam. They fussed very little. I was very impressed. Jazz was 91 grams, and chessie is 115 grams.