Amazon Plucking

Kiwibird

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1 BFA- Kiwi. Hatch circa 98', forever home with us Dec. 08'
I also gave him some sweet potato (boiled no butter - no salt - no seasoning). He loves sweet potatoes.

Just have to ask, does he regularly get fruit and vegetables or just the pellets and the occasional sweet potato or other random produce? They should get fresh produce, and a good variety of it, every day. No offense intended in asking this, I've just heard of people being quite confused on their diets and only feeding them pellets.
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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No offense taken...in fact appreciate any suggestions...yes, he eats mostly Harrison's High Potency Coarse. He used to eat the regular Harrison's but since his weight has a tendency to be under, the vet said give him the high potency kind.

I've tried offering him broccoli, string beans, etc. he doesn't eat it. I've noticed he is partial to sweet types of vegetables (sweet potato, corn, peas...) which I don't give him often because I was worried about too much sugar. He was getting a snack of a small slice of banana every day but since he's been sick I've stopped that. I've tried giving him pasta but he ignores that. Last night I also put a dab of peanut butter (creamy / organic) on my finger and he took that.

When we first got him we were told that Harrison's has all the vitamins they need.

So now my question is, if they only eat Harrison's, can these symptoms he has now develop ? Also, I've read about people giving their parrots yogurt and I always thought they should not have dairy. It is indeed confusing and sometimes contradictory so that's why I ask. I will try any food for him, if it makes him better. I bought a bag of Nutriberries and was giving him one a day but I stopped that now too. He also has sampled Harrison's Power Treats which he loves.

I also gave him some sweet potato (boiled no butter - no salt - no seasoning). He loves sweet potatoes.

Just have to ask, does he regularly get fruit and vegetables or just the pellets and the occasional sweet potato or other random produce? They should get fresh produce, and a good variety of it, every day. No offense intended in asking this, I've just heard of people being quite confused on their diets and only feeding them pellets.
 
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Kiwibird

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It sounds like you unfortunately got some bad information when you got him:(. Pellets are kind of like vitamin fortified cereal or bread- they have "nutrients" but certainly are not a balanced or complete diet. Parrots eat primarily fruit in the wild, and they need it every single day. The NATURAL sugar in fruit is not bad for them either, it can just make them a bit more aggressive when they are hormonal. It's the processed sugar in cakes and cookies that we eat that is bad for birds. They actually get most of their water intake from fruit, not drinking water. Corn is not particularly good for them (fine as a treat), but peas, bananas and sweet potatoes are very good for birds, and a good start to getting him into eating the right foods as a regular part of his diet:) Avocado, onion, garlic, tomatoes and mushrooms are all TOXIC. The flesh of fruits like apples, pears, plums and apricots is very healthy, but the pits, seeds and stems are toxic. The thing with dairy is that since it isn't a natural part of their diet, many are simply lactose intolerant. It's actually rich in calcium and healthy fats when fed in small amounts to birds who can tolerate it. My BFA is actually like a cheese addict. He suffers no ill effects from dairy, and he usually gets 3 or 4 of the little strands of grated cheese a couple times a week. Parrots also like eggs and crushed eggshells. Egg has protein and healthy fats (a tiny spoonful a couple times a week is about all they should have), and eggshells are a good source of calcium.

Given that you were never aware of this before, I would talk to the vet about his diet. Was the vet aware he rarely eats fresh produce? That could be a major contributing factor to what's happening to him, and the vet can better advise a healthier diet for a bird. Nutritional deficiencies can cause many strange symptoms, and hearing this make me think that the vet needs to know this and look at this possibly from another angle. I hope he's ok, and please don't be afraid to feed him fruit and veg!

Edit: Every bird has different preferences, but my BFA really likes apple, banana, pomegranate, grapes, oranges, pineapple, guava, mango, broccoli, sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes (don't feed raw potato, but cooked is fine), peas, corn, green beans, pumpkin, butternut squash, zucchini, yellow squash (and I'm sure I've forgotten a few). He isn't so fond of carrots and leafy greens, but many parrots love those. Kiwi gets fruit at his morning feeding and veggies at night. Consult with the vet first, given your birds medical problems, but I really think there's a much healthier diet for him to be on. I wrote this post a while ago outlining my birds diet and how to cook and prep for a single parrot:
http://www.parrotforums.com/parrot-...60-healthy-eating-home-made-single-birds.html

In fact, check out the "diet" section of the forum: http://www.parrotforums.com/parrot-food-recipes-diet/ and google "parrot chop mix recipe" and "parrot food recipes" for more ideas on nutritious meals to make for your bird that will help acclimate him to eating produce.
 
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MonicaMc

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He had a vent and crop swab. and the zinc test I am waiting to receive results Friday. Haven't done giardia as his stools appear normal but I've decided to now do that one too. Haven't done any skin biopsies --- is this safe to do? Also, he has been eating Harrisons since I first got him 11 years ago. I don't overdo any treats either. No table food either. He gets an occasional almond. Last night I made him a tiny bit of oatmeal with water for the first time and he really liked it. I also gave him some sweet potato (boiled no butter - no salt - no seasoning). He loves sweet potatoes.


I've never had a reason to do a skin biopsy before, so I don't know.... but I would say that it is something to look into because he could have a skin or follicle infection that can *only* be figured out by testing the area. I have heard of skin/follicle infections in other birds and it was only diagnosed by testing the skin and feathers in that area.

Not only should the skin be tested, but some feathers should be plucked from the area he's picking and those tested as well.

If he gets sweet potato regularly, you might want to consider removing it from his diet - at least for 6 weeks or longer. I don't know why, but sweet potato *may* increase plucking problems.


No offense taken...in fact appreciate any suggestions...yes, he eats mostly Harrison's High Potency Coarse. He used to eat the regular Harrison's but since his weight has a tendency to be under, the vet said give him the high potency kind.

I've tried offering him broccoli, string beans, etc. he doesn't eat it. I've noticed he is partial to sweet types of vegetables (sweet potato, corn, peas...) which I don't give him often because I was worried about too much sugar. He was getting a snack of a small slice of banana every day but since he's been sick I've stopped that. I've tried giving him pasta but he ignores that. Last night I also put a dab of peanut butter (creamy / organic) on my finger and he took that.

When we first got him we were told that Harrison's has all the vitamins they need.

So now my question is, if they only eat Harrison's, can these symptoms he has now develop ? Also, I've read about people giving their parrots yogurt and I always thought they should not have dairy. It is indeed confusing and sometimes contradictory so that's why I ask. I will try any food for him, if it makes him better. I bought a bag of Nutriberries and was giving him one a day but I stopped that now too. He also has sampled Harrison's Power Treats which he loves.


Could his problems arise simply because he's been on Harrison's his entire life? In theory, yes. Likewise, it could be something else.

Depending upon the yogurt you get, yogurt can have very little to no lactose in it. Lactose is the problem for parrots. However, yogurt also contains lactase, which is what is used to digest lactose. Besides that, it can also have beneficial healthy bacteria that could potentially be good for birds. Yogurt and hard cheeses aren't "that bad" for parrots.

When I had to give my mitred conure meds and he completely refused to take them, I mixed them in with yogurt. He liked it, and so he ate the meds down just fine being mixed! When I gave him the regular yogurt without meds, he thought it tasted funny! LOL He still liked it, but he had a momentary "that's weird!" kind of look/thought, then continued eating it!



I was going to suggest trying the Roudybush Rice Diet, which a lot of amazons would probably benefit from, although your zon might not do so well on it if he has an issue keeping his weight up....



I came across a post on Facebook and I thought it was interesting. It may not help you at all, but it goes to show that sometimes additional tests besides blood panels need to be performed. (which I know you have already done multiple tests! some people though only rely on the blood tests to prove health)

Pamela Clark

We had a very interesting case in our veterinary clinic this week which underscores the importance of always doing veterinary lab testing on feather picking birds, but also that caregivers must be advocates for their birds, in terms of knowing what tests have been done and which tests should be done.

My concern for some time has been that many veterinarians no longer do fecal analyses or Gram stains on parrots. I routinely review lab testing results for my consulting clients, and I see a trend in vets to do only a CBC (complete blood count) and a chemistry panel with bile acids. At our clinic, we do those two tests, but we also recommend a fecal analysis to check for intestinal parasites and a Gram stain. The Gram stain that we perform checks the relative health of the respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts of the parrot by obtaining samples from the choanal cleft in the roof of the mouth and from a fresh fecal sample.

In this case, we saw a severely feather picked African Grey. History was limited because the bird belonged to a woman who did not attend the appointment. It was her son who had brought the bird into us and he did not have all pertinent information to share. We did a CBC, chemistry panel, fecal analysis and Gram stain. The CBC showed an elevated white blood count. The chemistry panel was normal. However, the fecal analysis showed roundworms, which can be a cause of feather picking. The Gram stain on the sample obtained from the choanal cleft showed oral spirochetes.

This was the first time I had seen these in 12 years and had to have a pathologist confirm my results. The fecal portion of the Gram stain showed budding yeast, yet another potential cause for the feather destruction.

If we had only done a CBC and chemistry panel, we would never have diagnosed the roundworms, the budding yeast, or the oral spirochetes. And, we would probably have concluded that the feather picking was non-medical in it's origin. Oral spirochetes can ONLY be diagnosed on a Gram stain sample obtained from a swab of the choanal cleft. They cannot be cultured. The sample from the choanal cleft in this case had slightly more mucous than is normal, but this would not necessarily have been a trigger for treatment.

This case is a good reminder that we must advocate for our parrots, become knowledgeable about the different lab tests, and learn to speak to our veterinarians in a knowledgeable fashion, requesting certain tests if they are not offered initially.


Also, in regards to diet, have you tried feeding healthy grains and legumes? You can get an idea of some foods to try in the following link....

http://www.parrotforums.com/parrot-...afe-fresh-foods-toxic-food-lists-sprouts.html


If you can't get your zon to eat a varied healthy diet, you might want to consider incorporating sprouted seeds into his diet. Sprouts are far superior in nutrition than dry seeds are!


8342979040_fd2d4de902_z.jpg



And last, but not least (for now), here's another website that may give you some more ideas on what tests to perform.

Avian behavior
 

Friday13

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Oh dear, looks like you have a real sticky issue. I am not sure if this will work. Worked for me before for one of my Zons who chewed on his feathers. Bathed him 3 times a week with this and he stopped his act for good. All my birds are on this bath salt. Showering is one of their happiest time with me. Of course I live in a Tropical region so showering my flock 2-3 times a week does not pose an issue.

This is one of the first thing I get upon my return to parroting recently.

Versele-Laga : Ideal Bath Salt

Wish you the best of luck with your precious!!! (Fingers X-ed forya)
 

Lovely

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I might not be the best of help, but one of my Lovebirds (shes my profile picture) started to pluck badly. I started to bathe her in Kings Cage Feather Shine Shampoo for about 5 weeks (a bath once a week.) She stopped plucking, and her feathers were growing back.

You can try to see if it'll work, but my Lovie just enjoys being bald. That's why I feel like I'm not the best of help.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_pet-supplies?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=KINGS+CAGES+L.P.&node=2619533011]Amazon.com: KINGS CAGES L.P.: Pet Supplies[/ame]

:green1:
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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Re: Amazon Plucking & Twitching

The vet called me today and the zinc test levels came out abnormal !! He wants to run the test again to make sure but it definitely came out high.

The vet said he was surprised because he saw nothing in the x-rays pertaining to this. I said -- my bird has bells in his cage that he plays with and bites. A lot of his toys hang from chains.

I just took all the toys out of his cage except for wood and checked his cage for rust but there is none.

The vet has to order a medicine to treat the zinc and even with express he likely won't receive it until Monday. I am hoping and praying that we can help him. So this is not a dietary issue.

I hope it is not too late to help my little guy :(


Toxicology
Specimen Test Name Method Basis Toxicology Result
Blue Front Amazon - Avian - 12 Years
Plasma -
1
Zinc (Flame AA - Zinc-Serum) Flame AAS As received basis 3.36 ppm
Plasma zinc levels for avians should be between 0.80 and 1.85 ppm.
Cockatoos, cockatiels and eclectus
parrots may have normal plasma zinc levels up to 2.80 ppm. -
 
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MonicaMc

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I hope that treating your zon for zing poisoning will help relieve the plucking, if not stop it! Here's hoping nothing drastic occurs between now and when you receive the meds!
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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I hope so too!

He said it's a series of injections then drops by mouth. Trying to stay positive here and hope for the best !


I hope that treating your zon for zing poisoning will help relieve the plucking, if not stop it! Here's hoping nothing drastic occurs between now and when you receive the meds!
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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Update: received an injection of CA EDTA on Saturday and 5 syringes of it to take home. We have to give him twice a day. Tonight will be the last injection and then it's drops of the same medicine by mouth. I hope this works. Vet said it binds to the metal / zinc and is excreted through urine / droppings.

I want to be positive but also not get my hopes up as he is still twitching, not as much though. (fingers crossed). Vet wanted me to stop other meds (anti-inflammatory and antibiotic) to see if this med will work (the CA EDTA).

Poor little guy has been taking so much - he's such a trooper!
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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The vet started him on CA EDTA this past Saturday with two injections a day for three days and then started today, 7 drops of the same medicine but liquid form twice a day. So, his symptoms appeared to be diminishing and then tonight after we gave him his medicine he started plucking and twitching again !!!

He also appears (not 100% sure) to be dropping his food every now and then. I thought this medicine works. I have to call the vet tomorrow for an update but how long does this CA EDTA take to work and are there side effects? I had forgotten to ask but I will tomorrow.

Does anyone here have experience in giving their bird this medicine and how did they react to taking it ??
 

MonicaMc

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Sorry, no experience giving this med, but I hope you are able to find some answers! :(
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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After being on meds for almost three weeks it looked like everything cleared up. A follow up blood test showed no more zinc in his blood. I stopped the meds per my vet and three days later he is worse than ever. Why can't an avian vet figure out what is wrong with my bird? I've cried over this over and over. He's biting himself, growling from discomfort and twitching both legs, wings and tail. Why can't we find out what is wrong? I just know this is not going to end well. I've tried different meds, second opinions, and I'm out of ideas.
 

henpecked

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He's getting the zinc from somewhere. maybe the cage, i know you changed out the toys. What about food/water dish?
 

Kiwibird

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Wendy brings up a good point. Some older cages were made of alloys that contained zinc (before anyone knew the risks) and I think some of the less expensive powder coated ones have it, and he could be getting it from the powder coating being chipped. Might be worth it to replace everything he comes in contact with that is metal (cage, dishes, perches ect...). If he is banded, it couldn't heart to have that removed as well. I also wonder if the zinc poisoning might not have caused some kind of long term neurological damage. Might be something to ask the vet. Might also be worth asking the vet if he shouldn't continue on the meds if he showed improvement while on them and is suffering again now that he's off them.

I am so sad to hear he is still having problems, the poor little guy:( I really hope this can be resolved soon. Even good avian vets sometimes have a very difficult time finding out whats wrong, especially when it's an uncommon issue.

Wanted to add- it may also be worth getting a second opinion. My moms zon broke a foot once and the break became infected. 1 avian and 1 exotic vet wanted to put her down. The third vet wasn't avian specialized, was quite a drive away, but was willing to at least try to save her. Not only did he save her life, but he saved the foot, she only has the slightest of limps in the foot. Sometimes you need a fresh pair of eyes to look at the situation or even the possibility another vet has seen this before whereas yours has not. Best of luck.
 
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Amethyst

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While he was on the EDTA meds - his symptoms were gone. He then had a follow-up blood test which revealed NO zinc this time. When I finished giving him the medicine, he was off it about a week and then his symptoms returned. I called the doctor and he said to give him medicine again for two days. I did that and then he said to wait a day to see if symptoms return.

This I don't understand because if his symptoms returned after being OFF the meds for a week, I'm assuming the same will happen. His King's cage is not rusty, peeling or otherwise, he doesn't chew on the bars, all his toys were re-strung with bird safe rope/cord. He eats Harrison's High Potency Coarse. He doesn't chew on his food or water cups. He does not get any dangerous foods or treats. He doesn't wear a band on his leg, he is micro-chipped (which I was told is not the cause). He had an x-ray which showed NO metal in his body and nothing suspicious. I don't give him tap water - he gets bottled water. I don't know where to go from here. If I suggest to my vet that he consult with another vet - do you think he will get angry or think I don't trust or have faith in his treatment ?

When this started, I got a second opinion and 1) hospital said it was behavioral - which is NOT the case and 2) other vet didn't have a clue. This is most definitely NOT behavioral --- leg twitching, spasms --- in addition to feather pulling and growing due to discomfort....I'm no vet -- but this is NOT behavioral.

I'm just trying to save my birds life and I'm emotionally worn out from exhausting all possibilities. I'm also frustrated that a cause / cure can't be found. This all started in January 2014. He was fine before that, and never sick a day in his life.
 
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JerseyWendy

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I agree, this does not sound like metal poisoning at all now.

Seeking a second opinion is a great idea IMO. I truly wish someone can help you figure out what is causing the spasms and twitching. :(

You must be so mentally exhausted by all this.
 

Kiwibird

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This must be devastating for you, and everything you are doing shows what a good companion you are to your bird. You obviously love him very much. He may feel terrible, but I'm sure he "knows" you are doing all you can for him.

A second opinion never hurts, and you don't *have* to tell your vet you are seeking one. Sometimes it may simply be a matter of this is a very rare condition your vet has never seen even though he is a very good vet but another vet has seen it before and is able to diagnose/treat. And just a though, perhaps ask the vet if there are any other, rare illnesses that EDTA has been used off-label to treat besides heavy metal poisoning. If you know he improved on the medication, but does not have any heavy metals in his system an no potential for exposure in his environment, then maybe the medication was treating something else and that something else could be identified by working backwards......
 
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Amethyst

Amethyst

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If' its not metal toxicity, I don't have a clue what it could be. This is a bird who was never sick a day in his life for 11 years. I hope he *knows* how much I love and care for him. If he doesn't sleep, I don't sleep. If he's upset, I'm upset. This certainly takes the *starch* out of you - emotionally, yes.
 

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