Bolivian GW vs. Regular GW ?

[plax]

I've seen quite a few references to "Bolivian" Greenwings. While the term is used quite often, I've not run across any good information on what exactly a "Bolivian Greenwing Macaw" technically might be? I've noted comments here and there that suggest "Bolivian" GWs are typically larger than their counterpart GWs, but I've found no weight/size guides anywhere on the Internet. Nor have I seen any reports or claims of other possible differences.

My Salsa is a fairly good sized Macaw. But he's certainly not the largest Greenwing I've seen reported. In fact, I think one of the members here reported that his GW is 1700 grams or more. That's a gigantic Macaw!

Whether it means anything or not, one thing I can confidently say is that Salsa is a Hyacinth-sized bird. I know this because, as you may have noticed, I also own a Hyacinth Macaw (named Zaffer). The overall size and dimensions of these two birds are nearly identical, including that of their heads and beaks. Salsa actually outweighs Zaf by about 70 or 80 grams. I should mention here that Salsa has a huge appetite while Zaf's isn't nearly as intense.

I haven't been a GW owner for very long and I've just become somewhat curious about the "Bolivian" factor. I'd appreciate any information anyone may have on the topic.

Thanks

 

[WharfRat]

I've read about it somewhere before but can't find it now. I'll ask my breeder when I get a chance. Thanks for making my brain hurt

 

[plax]

I've read about it somewhere before but can't find it now. I'll ask my breeder when I get a chance. Thanks for making my brain hurt

Thanks. I'm interested in any available info.

And hey, glad to oblige on the brain pain!

 

[henpecked]

If you really want the full story on "Bolivian "GWs contact Howard Voren at voren.com he has some of the biggest i've ever seen , and he's had one pair for 40+ years. The deal was getting babies to survive 90 days "Quarantine" and those subspecies had such a unique diet5 that was hard to recognize, that imports were limited, successful imports. But there's a breeding stock that is slowly becoming diluted. talk with Howard, it's amazing what you can learn. Yes there's a different bird.

 

[WharfRat]

Hen... that was such a non-answer LOL
What do you know about the differences?

 

[KBEquine]

Hen... that was such a non-answer LOL
What do you know about the differences?

I think he knows that HE (henpecked) will willingly answer many amazon questions, but that you need to contact Howard, who is active on some e-lists & from what I can tell, very willing to share his knowledge on macaws.

[Henpecked can chip in & tell me if I misinterpreted him entirely!]

 

[plax]

If you really want the full story on "Bolivian "GWs contact Howard Voren at voren.com he has some of the biggest i've ever seen , and he's had one pair for 40+ years.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[MacawGuy]

yea i want to know to.

 

[plax]

http://s91586483.onlinehome.us/misc/macaw_size_chart.xls

I did find this chart on Macaw weight and length ranges per species. While it doesn't break down the two GW types, it shows full ranges of weight and length for each type of non-hybrid Macaw. These ranges are easily compared since each is shown along side that of the other Macaw species. Based upon my personal experience with weight and length of various large Macaw species, this chart seems to be far more accurate than many figures I've seen reported on the Internet. For example, I've never encountered anyone with a Hyacinth that's actually 40 inches in length. Yet that's the most commonly reported length for them in general descriptions on the Internet (some state "up to 40 inches in length" while others simply state "length: 40 inches"). Anyway, you can decide for yourselves.

 

[MacawGuy]

well that's interesting

 

[henpecked]

Yup. Howard is the one to contact for the full story

 

[JJones1719]

Hello, just wanted to add that my Neleno is approx 1700 grams. He is a giant compared to my Bird Club Members who have green wings. He and his sister could not be more different. They hatched around the same time but at birth, there was a huge different in size and the amount of food required. On my profile picture, neleno is approx 6-7 months old and at that time was approx 1600 grams. I hope to post more pictures of him so you can see and compare Neleno to other GW Macaws you might know. Best of luck Joe

 

[plax]

Hello, just wanted to add that my Neleno is approx 1700 grams. He is a giant compared to my Bird Club Members who have green wings. He and his sister could not be more different. They hatched around the same time but at birth, there was a huge different in size and the amount of food required. On my profile picture, neleno is approx 6-7 months old and at that time was approx 1600 grams. I hope to post more pictures of him so you can see and compare Neleno to other GW Macaws you might know. Best of luck Joe

Yes, you're the one I mentioned earlier in the thread who had the HUGE GW. It's hard to imagine how imposing Neleno must appear in person. My Salsa is not a small bird but he only weighs 1490 empty and about 1530 on a filled crop. So I'm imagining how Neleno must appear being 200+ grams heavier :11: You have quite a BIG buddy there!

 

[WharfRat]

hmmm I know ReaRea was well over 1500 when I was still weaning her and that was months ago. A buddy of mine has 1 that is right @ 2K grams (same parents as mine) There may be a tie in here to the "Bolivian" GW I'm thinking.

 

[plax]

hmmm I know ReaRea was well over 1500 when I was still weaning her and that was months ago. A buddy of mine has 1 that is right @ 2K grams (same parents as mine) There may be a tie in here to the "Bolivian" GW I'm thinking.

Wow, a 4.4 pound Macaw... I can't even fathom that! If you can, please try and snap a photo of your friend's humongous GW monster bird next to one of your two. I'd love to get some perspective on such a gigantic parrot. I never knew they made 'em that big :11:

 

[Alisana]

I did a bit of digging around about this ages back, and I couldn't find any scientific basis on the bolivian greenwings and blue and golds - but I did find breeder reports on them. (The larger subspecies of the Scarlet however does definitely exist and breeders try not to dilute these lines)

To be officially/scientifically recongised as a subspecies, and not a genetic mutation, there needs to be a definite blood line and also enough differences that can even show up in the DNA. (From what I've read)

From another thread:

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/20138-giant-greenwing-bolivian-blue-gold-subspecies.html

That's pretty much what I was thinking but if you google bolivian blue and gold macaw it brings up some articles about it. They even say that the bolivian has a true blue wereas the normal is more of an aqua color?

Was it this article? Blue and Gold Macaws (Ara ararauna): Info and Photos

I'd be curious to see if any academic/scientific research has been done.

Looking at the criteria to recognise a subspecies:
"Members of one subspecies differ morphologically or by different coding sequences of DNA from members of other subspecies of the species. [...] two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier were removed (e.g. geographical location)"

If there is enough evidence, based on size, distribution and colour differences, or even different coding in the DNA, then the subspecies of Ara ararauna or Ara chloroptera may be recognised. That is if anyone has bothered to actually look though from a scientific standpoint.

Slightly related: I am interested in reading this paper, based on title alone: A new subspecies of scarlet macaw (Ara macao) and its status and conservation)- Google Scholar ( A new subspecies of scarlet macaw (Ara macao) and its status and conservation)

I had a chat with some people to find out perspective.

Seems there is a bit of divide on whether it is a genuine subspecies or not.

There is however, this book which I was told to have a read of: Amazon.com: The Large Macaws: Their Care, Breeding, and Conservation (9780963596406): Joanne Abramson, Jorgen B. Thomsen, Marsha Mello, Brian L. Speer: Books

Apparently it has information on the "larger" varieties of macaws.

One breeder I spoke to mentioned that they believe it just varied bird to bird. He had a female B&G Macaw that weighed in at about 1300g, yet her nestmates were all normal size around 900-1000g.

One of my avian medicine books actually has a full listing of the weight ranges of birds that came through a collection of different clinics in the US:

(all weights in grams)

Green Wing Macaw Ara chloroptera
Male 1108-1431
Female 1051-1301

Blue and Gold Ara ararauna
Male 937.5-1417
Female 803-1800 (!!)

There were no clinical notes on the weight of the female blue and gold - so I don't know if that weight could've been due to a tumour or overweight, OR if she was just huge physiologically. I was surprised that there were no comments on the weight at all, so I have no idea.

I suspect that at some time there may have been 'true' "Bolivian" macaws that varied in colour, feather length/shape and their overall size, but I suspect that deforestation may have reduced their gene pools in the wild, and hybridisation in the pet trade would've destroyed the pure lines.

In the quote above, there is a book - if you can get it, let me know how it is, because it's been recommended more than once as a reading topic on "larger" macaws; the authors actually concentrated efforts to breed these bolivian/giant subspecies.

Until you can pin down a scientist though to actually do a proper study in the differences between the two species, whether it is by wild observation in different geographical locations, or even looking at DNA coding, it's something we won't really know whether it is just down to genetics where some breed big, others breed small (example, look at how we can have humans who are 7-8ft tall?) or if it's actually subspecies.

If ANYONE finds any peer-reviewed evidence, I'd be HIGHLY interested in seeing it regardless.

 

[plax]

@Alisana: Thanks for addressing this matter. From your reasonable assessment of available material it appears that, at this point, the elusive 'Bolivian' factor may be more of a theory than a scientifically-based acknowledgment of the existence of genuine larger subspecies among Ara chloroptera or Ara ararauna. However, that's not to say that the possibility for presence of pure lines from such subspecies has been conclusively ruled out on scientific basis, much less that such lines did not exist in pure form at one time. It merely suggests that hard scientific evidence may not exist at this point. At least that's my take thus far.

Wow! an 1800g B&G!! Sounds impressive. But as you've mentioned, it may have been an extremely overweight bird or one with sizable tumor growth. There's no way to know without comments from the clinicians.

 

[Alisana]

I remember reading a zoologist's perspective of the scientific community's attitude towards research and preservation...

He had said something along the lines that we are discovering more and more species, but for every species we discover, many more fade into extinction. It's rather sad. Particularly when it comes to bird species. When you consider that there are some 9'800-10'050 species of birds, and that there are at least 1'200 on the threatened with extinction list - most of which are parrots. It's rather worrying that there isn't a higher 'demand' to find, classify and preserve our species. But unfortunately in science and academia, other more profitable fields seem to win out. *sigh*

Regarding the classification of subspecies though - I wonder what exactly is required to find out DNA/genetic differences between a 'normal' GW and a 'Bolivian' GW? One of my friend's does genetics here at the University, so I'll ask next time I see him. If you can do it from feather samples, then you can simply analyse feathers side by side; but obtaining blood samples may be harder. (Weight is the first point of call though )

 

[plax]

I remember reading a zoologist's perspective of the scientific community's attitude towards research and preservation...

He had said something along the lines that we are discovering more and more species, but for every species we discover, many more fade into extinction. It's rather sad. Particularly when it comes to bird species. When you consider that there are some 9'800-10'050 species of birds, and that there are at least 1'200 on the threatened with extinction list - most of which are parrots. It's rather worrying that there isn't a higher 'demand' to find, classify and preserve our species. But unfortunately in science and academia, other more profitable fields seem to win out. *sigh*

I wholeheartedly agree

Regarding the classification of subspecies though - I wonder what exactly is required to find out DNA/genetic differences between a 'normal' GW and a 'Bolivian' GW? One of my friend's does genetics here at the University, so I'll ask next time I see him. If you can do it from feather samples, then you can simply analyse feathers side by side; but obtaining blood samples may be harder. (Weight is the first point of call though )

My guess is that there would necessarily have to be an allocation of time for such a project and, of course, the appropriate funding would likely need to be granted beforehand. I doubt that many scientists in the DNA/genome field can simply set out on their own projects without being given a particular assignment and appropriate backing. I'll be interested to learn what your friend says though.

 

[WharfRat]

Ok, this pic is almost exactly a year old (8/7/11) and she wasn't close to being weaned and I have an actual weight on this day 989g

she is MUCH larger now obviously