Boomer's Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

[BoomBoom]

Boomer's Routine Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

Hello, everyone! I'm here on slight panic mode. Hoping to hear from others with information or similar experiences. When I finished writing the post, I realized I was too verbose so I summarized it in bold below:

Has your bird been tested with 90% positive gram, 10% negative gram before? How did they get it? What would have happened if I put off the wellness exam and never found out about the bacterial infection? Would it have gone away on it's own or would he have been violently ill?


If you want to read on, here's the novelized version:

Boomer is a 6 1/2 year old sun conure. He is acting normal but was overdue for a wellness exam so I took him to his Avian Vet last week. Physical test was good. Vet said he had a strong heart and lungs. Was told that his diet and supplementation were excellent care (his words) but need to reduce almonds / pistachios (was giving 5-6 per day). His comprehensive avian profile (blood test) was good which meant heart, liver, kidneys were okay. All that said, it takes advanced imaging or histo to know 100%. Standard culture and sensitivity test showed that he has 90% gram positive rods (good) BUT has 10% gram negative rods (not good). All his past culture tests had 0% gram negative rods. They gave me an oral prescription of Baytril for 10 days, twice daily. So he got a bacterial infection from something. I asked them how he could have acquired this and was told it could be from literally anything: contaminated food, water, contact with droppings...

I'm OCD when it comes cage cleaning (daily) and food handling. I asked them, if I had not taken him for a wellness exam and I didn't find out about the infection, what would have happened to Boomer? They said sometimes their immune system fights it. I guess if the immune system fails, I'd have a visibly sick bird. I tried to search online to find out if there is a germ associated with the infection (link: https://www.beautyofbirds.com/bacterialinfection.html) but I couldn't find it in the lab report. I also came upon an informative article on gram stains (link: http://avianmedicine.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gramstain2.pdf) where I see some similar reports of 90% gram positive, 10% gram negative.

My own research didn't get me closer to understanding how Boomer may have gotten the infection, hence my post. Has anyone received a similar culture test before? How did your bird get the infection? Did they manifest any visible symptoms? Boomer looked completely fine to me, was eating, plumage looked good, droppings, etc. I know parrots hide signs of illness but still? Vet said it was nothing to worry about and that this happens. Am I overreacting?

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Copy of Lab Report



Boomer says hello!

 

[Flboy]

Nothing to add, just want you on top to monitor replies!

 

[Aplanis]

Re: Boomer's Routine Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

Hello

I have a juvenile sun Conure. Took her to a vet in November of last year and everything was fine. I found a certified AV so decided to take her there recently. She cultured positive for pseudomonas. I had to give antibiotic injections for ten days.

I'm in healthcare (not a doctor). Your vet is right. pseudomonas can be much more serious so that was something which had to be treated.

However most gram-negative bacteria we, and our birds, encounter all the time. Normally our immune systems rid it without us even knowing. Bacteria, both good and bad, is all around us. Gram-negative bacteria is everywhere-water, soil, air, etc. There's even good and bad bacteria on our skin.

It's the particular strain of bacteria which is involved which is what is more important. Mine Roux had pseudomonas which is a more dangerous form of gram-negative bacteria.

I'm sure if your bird had a form that was truly a treat, he would have told you.

Although your bird could quite possibly purged the bacteria on its own, it's good you took him to the vet and it's being treated.

I have to take my Roux back in six months to make sure the antibiotics worked and cleared the pseudomonas. (fingers crossed)

Hope everything goes well!!


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[Skittys_Daddy]

I honestly don't know what percentage of gram pos/neg Skittles had last exam. His gram stains are usually perfectly normal (at least thats what they tell me, 'perfect balance of gram pos/neg').

But I do know that when I had Peaches, she had some gram neg issues and the vet told me to add a few drops of apple cider vinegar to her water.

You could try that with Boomer. It certainly can't hurt.

I know I have to change Skittles water several times a day and he has a habit of trying to pick up discarded food particles.


I don't think you're overreacting at all. I think you are just very concerned. If I took Skittles to the vet and had the same issue, I'd be freaking out too. I'm sure Boomer will be fine.

Skittles goes for his annual in a few months. This is Maine, so I have to wait til the temps are right since the vet is long distance.

 

[BoomBoom]

@Flboy, I appreciate that!

@Aplanis, Thank you for the information on gram negative bacteria. It gives me a lot of comfort!!! Thanks also for sharing Roux's experience. I'm sorry to hear about the pseudomonas. Major props on giving those injections. I don't know how I could have handled it. I've got my fingers crossed for your vet trip in 6 months. Is Roux acting normal? May I also ask if you found out how he got the pseodomonas?

@Skitty'sDaddy, Thank you for sharing that. If your vet said that Skittles has a perfect balance of gram pos/neg, then it must mean his pos is very close to 100% and his neg close to 0% by a difference of 1% to 2%. At least this is what I've read in my online research. If you were provided a copy, the lab report will probably list the values. I also use ACV (brand w/ mother) in Booms' water once in a while as a preventative for yeast. Did not know that it helps in gram negative situations too. Good to know! I hope all is well on Skittles' vet visit. I am sure he will ace it. Rooting for you guys.



Really, thank you for the posts, everyone. I haven't let myself relax since learning about Boomer's results a few days ago. Perhaps I'm overboard but I've been on an OCD cleaning spree bordering on insanity. Exhausted physically and mentally at this point, especially since one of my parakeets died quite suddenly 2 weeks ago from what myself and my vet suspect to be congenital heart disease. I'm suspicious of everything now.

Boomer has been and still is acting normal. I wonder if his immune system is not as strong as I thought? Maybe it was going to purge the bacteria on its own but that depends on how long he's had the gram negative at 10%. If he's had it for a while but was never purged, then maybe the immune system needs boosting. It's all conjecture on my part of course. Regardless, it's back to the drawing board for me. Diet needs to be re-adjusted. I'm also going back to my flock's old probiotic powder brand Avitech (recently switched to Nekton which was supposed to be better). I'm also tempted to go back to my previous 'potions' for flock health: bee pollen, red palm oil, spirulina powder. I say potion because I have no proof that it does them any good. I stopped using them a long time ago. The palm oil may actually even be bad since it's literally pure fat.

In other news, oral baytril via syringe is proving to be a nightmare. I've done it before but that was when Boomer was younger. I had to resort to peanut butter and cupcake. They're so bad but I'm desperate. I'm going to the store for orange juice and apple juice tomorrow. Wish us luck :54:

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

I know the vet had originally recommended the apple cider vinegar for Peaches and her yeast issues. But vinegar also has anti-bacterial properties too.

I hope I never have to do oral anti-biotics with Skittles, cause I'd imagine it'd be a nightmare for me too.

Have you ever considered Harrisons pellets? I remember when I had Peaches, she was fed a seed mix, commercial pellets and table foods and had a nutritional deficiency and kept getting respiratory infections every year for about six years. When I switched her to Harrisons in 2006, she never got another infection for the remaining nearly ten years I had her. Her deficiency went away too. I swear by the Harrisons.


I do worry about Skittles weight. The vet says his weight is perfect, but he just seems so skinny to me. I can feel muscle on each side of his breastbone, but given how much he eats (he IS a little piggy!) I worry about that, but I have to remind myself that he is free-flighted and that is likely why he eats so much and yet is not overweight. Doesn't stop me from worrying though! I get OCD with Skittles as well, it doesn't help that I actually have OCD either!

 

[BoomBoom]

Funny that you asked! I tried to switch him to Harrison's a few times in the past but I was unsuccessful. He's on Zupreem Natural now. Last night I ordered another bag of Harrison's High Potency Fine, so I'm about to try to convert him again. He's so stubborn when it comes to this!

 

[Aplanis]

Re: Boomer's Routine Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

Hey

I don't know how Roux was exposed to pseudamonus bacterium. However, it is also a common bacterium that is everywhere in the environment.

My suspicion was that it was from water. I have a perch with a water and feed bowl on it. Once I put Roux in her cage I wouldn't always dump the water from the perch bowl which I'm embarrassed to say sometimes sat there a few days before Roux went back on her perch. I would always change the water then but there were a few occasions she would get to the old water before I could change it. Now I'm religious about it.

But it could not have been that. That's part is the frustration is not knowing. But honestly we can't always protect them from every bacteria especially those that are ubiquitous in our surroundings.

One thing my vet also put Roux on during the antibiotics was an anti-fungal medication I put into her water. This was to prevent a yeast infection.

As you know antibiotics are indiscriminate killing the good bacteria as well which could open the door to yeast. I also ordered Bene-Bac probiotics for birds just to replenish the good bacteria in her gut. I did this on my own. Reason why we eat yogurt when we are on antibiotics to prevent gastrointestinal issues.

To your question Roux seemed perfectly fine before I found out. And she's doing very well now. Luckily she didn't hold a grudge against me for giving her ten injections. I gave her a treat and the Bene-Bac afterwards (which she loves as a treat).


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[BoomBoom]

Re: Boomer's Routine Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

That's part is the frustration is not knowing. But honestly we can't always protect them from every bacteria especially those that are ubiquitous in our surroundings.

So much this. It's the not knowing that is so frustrating. I need to know what I'm doing wrong otherwise I'll be paranoid about everything. I wanted the vet to tell me specifically but they couldn't. It's crazy making :56: I'm glad to hear Roux is acting normal. I saw her photos in your other thread, she's an active one and so cute! I'm sure she's going to be just fine.

Thanks for the heads up on the yeast infection. I thought it just develops from poor diet but did not know that it could happen from the absence of good bacteria after an antibiotic treatment. My vet did not prescribe any anti-fungal medication but will start on the ACV and probiotic powder as soon as Boomer's 10 days of Baytril is complete. On that topic, I'd like to ask you more on eating yogurt during antibiotic treatment. I know that it has probiotic properties, however it was my understanding that it should not be eaten when on antibiotics. Reason being that the antibiotics would just kill off the budding good bacteria along with the bad, and maybe make it work harder than it should?

Should I be giving probiotic powder to Boomer during or after his antibiotic treatment?

 

[Scott]

More proof birds hide illness from our inquisitive eyes. Score another victory for well checks!

Despite your best efforts at cleanliness, the microscopic world harbors a variety of nasties. While it is possible Boomer would eventually purge the harmful bacteria, Baytril is a broad spectrum and effective drug.

My flock members on occasion have developed infections and typically quickly respond. They are not fond of oral meds, but mixing with room-temperature oatmeal is an effective delivery device. Check with your vet, but mine has approved this method for virtually every oral potion.

 

[BoomBoom]

Thank you, Scott!! It means a lot. I'm glad I didn't put off his wellness check any longer.

I've also heard of oatmeal as an effective means of delivering medication. I think Boomer hates it for some reason. When I've offered him overnight refrigerated oats in the past, he literally attacked the spoon. I thought he'd like it because it looks like his regurgitation. :34:

I might make a batch today and try if the orange / apple juice doesn't cut it. He can taste the Baytril on the peanut butter (his absolute fave) and I had a hard time tempting him to eat it.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Hi and welcome! Good for you, for being so curious and vigilant. I'd love to hear from your avian vet on all these subjects and possibilities. I usually go in with a list of questions so that I don't get flustered or forgetful.

About Hartrison's... my usual remarks...

Harrison's Bird Foods
I feed Harrison's, supplemented by fresh healthy treats. My first, and later, my current avian vet recommended it. My bird loves the pellets now, but to get him converted, my avian vet suggested putting pellets out all day, and putting seeds (his old diet) out for two 15-minute periods a day. That would sustain him but leave him hungry enough to try new stuff. I presume the same technique could be used to get him to eat other healthy stuff, like fruits and vegetables! My guy was eating pellets in a couple of days, and now I can feed a good variety of other stuff, knowing he has the pellets as a basic. Pellets are out all day... fresh treats a few times a day. I also like Harrison's via mail because I never have to worry about out-of-date products.
Another couple of ideas...
My ol' man is an athlete and health nut. He actually EATS all the good stuff, so it's always around. I find that tossing various stuff into the food bowls at random is good... the variations and differences seem to stimulate curiosity and attention.
The other idea... if you can stand it (lol) EAT the stuff in front of the birds, yes. That encourages them. I have also found that if my ol' man eats stuff in front of the bird, the bird WANTS it for himself. Kinda a rivalry thing!

 

[EllenD]

I'll chime-in here and try to reinforce the fact that you're doing nothing wrong at all, and that all of us, people and our pets, we all encounter several hundred if not thousands of strains of Bacterium and Fungi every single day, Pseudomonas strains being extremely common EVERYWHERE, along with Staph strains...it's not uncommon at all!

Think of it this way: We take showers every day, wash our hands, cook our food, change our clothing, clean our homes, etc...So how do we come-down with "colds", "flus", etc.? Some are caused by viruses, but ANYTHING that you must take an Antibiotic for is being caused by a Bacterium, every eye infection, ear infection, throat infection, Upper Respiratory Illnesses, etc. EVERY ONE OF THEM THAT REQUIRES AN ANTIBIOTIC IS BEING CAUSED BY A BACTERIA...

So does it mean that you have an Immune System issue/weakness if you come-down with Bronchitis? Pink-Eye? Strep-Throat? Nope. It just means that you came in-contact with enough of the Bacteria that causes that illness and it was able to get into your system and multiply enough to cause an infection. Doesn't mean that you've done anything at all wrong.

His blood work results are very good, he's a very healthy bird, he just has a little bug that is caused by a very common Bacterium that is literally EVERYWHERE. It's floating all over your house right now, no matter how much you clean. It's on our skin 100% of the time. And chances are that if you hadn't taken your bird for his Wellness-Exam and caught the infection through a Culture/Sensitivity, his body may very-well have fought it off and you'd never have known he had it in the first place, and if his body didn't fight it off, then he would have eventually shown signs of an illness and then it would have been treated, just like what happens when we start to not feel very well...

Nothing you can do beyond what you're already doing to protect your bird from simple, common Bacterial Infections. My answer would obviously be different if he was constantly coming-down with infections, that would indicate an immune problem. This is simply him catching a bug, and he'll be fine.

 

[Aratingettar]

IMO it's just we can't predict whether Boomer's immune system will fight the infection itself or will need the support from antibiotics. In a perfect world he should be supervised/examined frequently to see if his infection is efficiently treated by his immune system, and only use the antibiotics if there's no other way. But it's the vet's decision to go with a treatment straightaway. Just be sure to cover it against fungal infection (consult with your AV), as the antibiotic will make him more prone to yeast infections. And it's good you go with a probiotic to help restore his natural bacterial flora. I'll cross my fingers for Boomer's health.

 

[PickleMeDickles]

Hi,

Was this a fecal gram stain? If so, it is not at all unusual for our fids to have a significant amount of gram-negative bacteria. This is due to their varied diet. Bird of prey and chickens (really any bird that scavenges off the ground) will often have a large number of gram-negative bacteria. If one of our conure fids became overcome by gram-negative bacteria, rather than just colonized by it, then it is more than prudent to treat this, or if they are symptomatic (loss of appetite, vomiting, weight loss, fever). At 10% I don't think a doctor would treat a human, but that is just my opinion.

In the respiratory tract, gram-negative rods are abnormal but not unusual. It can occur as a result of improper gathering techniques in which the sample is contaminated by GI or nasal/oral contact. At 10% in a human, I would probably do a culture and sensitivity. Gram-negative rods really tell us only that there are a large number of gram-negative bacteria, but does not point to a specific bacteria, or even its family.

To do that it would require a culture and sensitivity which not only identifies the organism but also what antibiotic it is susceptible to as well. This would isolate which organism it is and to what extent it is responsible for the 10% AND tell us which specific antibiotics will successfully treat this. Your vet may be doing this and just isn't calling you because the culture shows that the bacteria are susceptible to Baytril or he/she just may be extra cautions and is treating the test result and not the symptoms.

If a culture shows that it is ALL one organism, then its most likely a low-grade infection. If there are MANY organisms, I would think more towards the contamination theory. I am not very knowledgeable about birds, but my "common sense" opinion is that a 10-day course of Baytril will help Boomer overcome an infection that "may" be a little stronger than his little immune system. A recheck in the future "if he remains non-symptomatic " is a good idea, if he were to become symptomatic I would take him in again ASAP.
In a blood test, any amount of gram-negative rods are abnormal, and in humans with symptoms, it is referred to as sepsis and is a medical emergency which requires IV antibiotics and sometimes life-sustaining measures.

I really hope my typos and rambling don't confuse you more than help you and best wishes to Boomer. If it were one of my babies I would not be overly concerned if there are no symptoms, but I would definitely follow the advice of your vet. If you continue to worry, I would call the vet and just ask for an interpretation of the gram-negative result. This may put your mind to ease.

-Jen

 

[BoomBoom]

@GaleriaGila, Thank you! I hope my third attempt at converting Boomer to Harrison's is successful :01:

@EllenD, Thank you for your post! It really puts things in perspective. My imagination and OCD gets the best of me sometimes :54:

@Aratingettar, Thanks! I'll ask my vet if there's any concern for yeast infection following the Baytril treatment.

@PickleMeDickles, Thank you! This was seriously informative. They gave him what they called a Culture and Sensitivity Test. They took samples of his droppings so I guess it's a more advanced fecal gram stain (also triple the cost, ouch my wallet). They didn't identify the specific germ or bacteria though. The lab test simply said 90 +rod, 10 -rod, unless I missed it. You are probably right in that he is treating the test result and not the symptoms (since there were no ill symptoms). I plan to take Boomer back for another test a few months later.


In wrapping up my cleaning today, I came across what I believe to be the culprit. I sometimes give boomer a good sized cardboard box to chew on. He goes inside and shreds it. Takes him about 3-4 weeks to demolish it at which point I throw it out. I always assumed he just shreds it. Upon closer inspection, it appears that he also regurgitates all over it. It's hard to notice because dried regurgitation is brown and so is the shredded paper. It does not look wet because the cardboard pulp just absorbs the stuff. If he spends a good time in there, shredding and regurgitating for a good 3 weeks, I can imagine the bacteria building up fast!

I really dropped the ball on that one. So no more cardboard boxes or at least way less of it. It does not make him hormonal, he loves it, but it's my number one suspect right now so I'll need tomoderate it. Also I will throw out immediately after a day or two. In a way I feel better because it's probably the only thing that was introduced in our routine recently (as in the past year).

Thank you again to everyone who shared their experiences and knowledge. Most of all for the reassurance! I learned many things both on here and in this whole ordeal.

 

[Aplanis]

Re: Boomer's Routine Wellness Exam: 10% Gram Negative Rods (Bacterial Infection?)

That's part is the frustration is not knowing. But honestly we can't always protect them from every bacteria especially those that are ubiquitous in our surroundings.

So much this. It's the not knowing that is so frustrating. I need to know what I'm doing wrong otherwise I'll be paranoid about everything. I wanted the vet to tell me specifically but they couldn't. It's crazy making :56: I'm glad to hear Roux is acting normal. I saw her photos in your other thread, she's an active one and so cute! I'm sure she's going to be just fine.

Thanks for the heads up on the yeast infection. I thought it just develops from poor diet but did not know that it could happen from the absence of good bacteria after an antibiotic treatment. My vet did not prescribe any anti-fungal medication but will start on the ACV and probiotic powder as soon as Boomer's 10 days of Baytril is complete. On that topic, I'd like to ask you more on eating yogurt during antibiotic treatment. I know that it has probiotic properties, however it was my understanding that it should not be eaten when on antibiotics. Reason being that the antibiotics would just kill off the budding good bacteria along with the bad, and maybe make it work harder than it should?

Should I be giving probiotic powder to Boomer during or after his antibiotic treatment?

First get it out of your head you did anything wrong. You didn't. Unfortunately bacteria is all around us and most gram-negative bacteria is really everywhere in our environment.

I always eat yogurt during an antibiotic regimen. It won't make the antibiotic work harder or less effective. But taking probiotic during a course of antibiotics can reduce possible gastrointestinal issues. If you've ever gotten had those issues it's because the good bacteria which normally aides in digestion is eliminated.

I gave Roux the Bene-vac during her antibiotic regime in addition to the anti-fungal the vet prescribed.


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[BoomBoom]

That's very good to know, thank you! Will start putting probiotics in Boomer's water tomorrow, which would be day 3 of his 10 day Baytril regimen.

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

You could try empty tissue boxes (plastic and glue removed). Its thin enough. Skittles doesn't regurgitate on it and he used to in the cuddle hut. He mainly just shreds it.

 

[BoomBoom]

Just thought I'd give an update on the whole Baytril administration. It's been a struggle. I put the dose in peanut butter but Boomer would probably ingest only 50% of the dose. He shakes off the peanut butter because of the taste of Baytrill. Towelling is out of the question. On Saturday morning, I ended up stressing him out so much that he hyper-ventilated. He is flighted and much more willful than I am lol.

Called my vet and told him about my method with peanut butter. He said it's not a good idea to continue because Boomer won't be ingesting the full dose. I asked if there were other alternatives. Maybe a one time injection that the vet would do himself. He said he would prescribe Amikacin instead. This is to be added to Boomer's drinking water. He will get the medication as he drinks. I'd just have to limit his apples for a while so he will actually seek water from his bowl (since apples are high in moisture. At least until we finish treatment.

If anyone has any horror stories or precautions for Amikacin, please let me know. I'm picking up the meds tomorrow after work. I've never heard of Amikacin before. I researched it and seems like it is widely used in captive parrots as well as other animals. Antimicrobial therapy for birds (Proceedings).