Food aggression

[KCJames]

Has anyone ever seen this in a parrot? I'm just curious because I spoke to Louie's breeder today and she had never seen it. She told me that he was not the dominant of the clutch. She gave me some tips such as playing with him on the floor, getting a smaller cage, moving the cage into a busier area of the house, bathing often and blow drying to relax him.
I had my last GCC for 22 years. I am VERY familiar with their behavior.
This is what Louie does,
If there is food on his play gym area and I go by he lunges. If I go to wipe poops up he lunges, I have bled, this is NOT test biting. He acts the same way to everyone in the house. The first night and next day was fine, then it was like a switch; cage aggression, displaying aggressive and territorial body language, I am at a loss. Friends of mine that have various species from Greys to Cockatoos have never had this happen. He will do it with toys. I put food in my hand and he eats fine. Once he realizes that he is in range he latches on. I have tipped a little to re direct his attention, I make eye contact and firmly say NO!
So I am looking for anyone that is familiar with this and how I can work with him.
One minute he is fine, the next he is aggressive. No changes in the room, nothing spooky or scary... Please help.

 

[DallyTsuka]

i wonder if it is hormones? a lot of parrots do get hormonal during certain times of the year. my male cockatiel is like this, he is like a switch. some days he is a total cuddlebug and then the next day he might dive bomb and go for my face (he is flighted).

not much works for Tsuka our tiel, because it seems it is a part of his personality, so we just avoid him on those days. if he is having a moody day we let him have his space and he's fine with that.

however, if it's hormones, you can try to lower his hormones. covering his cage 12-14 hours a night might trick him into thinking its winter time, which many parrots respond well with. its worth a shot, it might take a week or two to start working.

also, molting birds can be cranky, but not abnormally territorial.


my female lovebird is a little like your conure too. she cant be caged with other birds because she attacks them all, and she cant be let out with the others because she attacks them. she used to be ok with them, but not anymore. she has attacked the other lovebird before over food, especially veggies or a favourite treat.


would giving him his food only in a certain location away from his cage work for him? maybe have a table set up for him to eat, or keep his food inside his cage. would this make a difference for him, you think? away from his play area, somewhere more on neutral ground.

just my thoughts, some other members should definitely have some other suggestions

 

[KCJames]

He is only 4 months old though. He isn't molting and he gets 12 of day and 12 of night, sometimes longer if I go to bed early. We adjust, try not to push, don't react when he bites, say NO, make eye contact, it's the strangest thing....It's food and territory. Away from those thiings he is better for longer periods of time but has still bitten and drawn blood. House quiet, me walking around talking in a soothing voice, either on my finger or the polly perch without the food cup of course, by the way he does the same thing if there are toys in there.
Maybe I should change his name to meanie....

 

[weco]

While he may not have displayed dominance traits around his breeder, that's what he's doing at your house. And I think part of it is he is testing his limits with you & needs direction from you as to what is & is not acceptable behavior.....

Your other bird may not have been a brat, this little guy is sure developing into one & needs to be slowed down.....if he were mine, I would start with clipping his wings, that often takes some of the bluster out of their sails, plus the wings will grow back with his first molt.....which may only be in a few months, so time may be of the essence.....

Good luck.....

 

[Mayden]

I'll address the clipping thing first;

"Your other bird may not have been a brat, this little guy is sure developing into one & needs to be slowed down.....if he were mine, I would start with clipping his wings, that often takes some of the bluster out of their sails, plus the wings will grow back with his first molt.....which may only be in a few months, so time may be of the essence....."

Not everyone is a fan of wing clipping and it puts a real bee in my bonnet when people suggest wing clipping when they're still so young. Vital muscle development is still happening at this point in their lives and so to take that flight and development from them, in my opinion, is just wrong. Teach him manners regarding food and behaviour and if still nothing has worked then AFTER his first moult and he's confident with his flight, consider clipping if his attitude hasn't changed.


"cage aggression, displaying aggressive and territorial body language/He will do it with toys."

So it's not just FOOD aggression then?

Yes, it's very very common.

Merlin is VERY cage territorial and I cannot change his food or toys without an attack 90% of the time. My partner has to do it because Merlin tolerates him being in his cage better than I; he also deals with bites much better than me. Merlin has been like this for pretty much as long as I can remember (he's 2 now), he had a few weeks of being an angel then he got into a routine and found out what was 'his' and what wasn't... and become fiercely protective of what is his. We have stopped actively discouraging it because everything we have done has not curbed his aggression - and we have tried everything, from the polite "No biting sweetie" to the more frowned upon things that I won't recommend. We always tell him "No Merlin" if he does bite, but basically we've made adjustments to our routine and life which means we get bit less and Merlin gets less anxious about his territory being invaded.

Merlin will eat out of our hands, off our plates(!), from his dish in our hands etc. But he would also snap at our fingers sometimes whilst feeding like that. (Sharing privileges of our yummy food then go to shot for a while.) We have found that keeping Merlin to eating from HIS dishes, in HIS cage, is the only way we've been able to combat his possessiveness over toys and food when outside of the cage. He'll still grumble, but a "HEY" from us usually puts him in his place.

So basically, my recommendation is; he doesn't get fed on his playstand, he gets fed in his cage. If he's cranky because he's hungry, plonk him in his cage near his dish. If he's grumbling at you because you're eating something that he wants, plonk him in his cage near his dish. If he lunges at you when he's on his playstand, "No!", give him a moment, then walk by again. If he lunges again, plonk him in his cage. If he does a scream at you because you're touching his toys, try again, if you get bit, plonk him in his cage.

The pattern I'm trying to get across here is that it's HIS cage, which I think he's more than entitled to be possessive of (I'm sure you hated it when parents came in your bedroom and started rummaging around for no good reason), and if he wants to have a tantrum about something or other, he can go to it and have it there. If Merlins being a pain in the butt throwing hissy's all night long, he goes in his cage and before long he's at the bottom ringing his bell asking to come out again, where he'll be a real sweetheart because he wants to be out and playing with mommy/daddy.

You baby needs to learn that the behaviour is NOT okay and will result in being caged. Merlin doesn't see his cage as a punishment (which it might seem like it is in this post) but as a time out - a break from being anxious or stressed about people touching his stuff. He gets to be in his cage, with his stuff, with his food, with bars stopping you from getting to it. Sometimes birds just need that safe space.


You said your breeder noticed no aggression/dominance, your bird was weeks old at the time, new flock, new surroundings, new everything - he's going to change.

I think a lot of people get anxious and uptight about parrot behaviour without understanding that your baby, hand reared or not, is still not a domesticated animal and they have pretty much all the traits and qualities of their ancestors.

So please bare in mind that parrots arn't really domesticated. If you've ever seen an aviary full of birds, or a documentary, you'll see birds scrap with each other for who gets the rights to food first etc. It's natural for him to feel hostile towards people coming near his precious resources, whether that's his bedding down area, his food or his mate. I'm not saying to encourage it, just don't view your bird as a "bad bird" because he's doing this. It could well just be a phase he's going through; you're doing right by him and he might grow out of it, or he might not. Merlin is 2 now and although he was doing well with the biting at first (I would go in his cage) he got worse and now I won't try to go in his cage.

If all else fails with your ignoring/eye contact and stern 'no's/caing, you'll just have to accept you have a bird who is not a fan of sharing his food/toys. This just means that feeding times are restricted, he's caged when you eat, you invest in a cage with swing out feeder doors, you buy toys that don't need to you be right near his beak when playing together, etc. I've got a ton of scars over my hands from Merlin and his inability to share; it's something we accept and deal with.

Sorry for the long post, hope it was somewhat helpful...

 

[weco]

I'm glad no one has posted before I got a chance to post this.....

Let’s see if I can find a bit of honey for that bee in your bonnet…..

Although I do suggest wing clipping as a quick way to try getting a handle on a situation that may appear to be unmanageable to a parrot owner at the moment. Sometimes you have to read between the lines on messages/posts…..especially if there sounds like a prolonged solution might bring more distress than a quick solution.

I’ll agree with you that muscle development may be delayed in the six months between clipping and molting, but the flight feathers are restored with the next molt and for a bird that has already fledged, it is only a delay. In this case the bird is four months old and his first molt will be earlier than six months away. I have all of my birds flighted & deal with any problems on an extended basis, if that’s required, but everybody does not want to deal with these types of problems…especially if they require too much time.

Because I feel that keeping the bird, rather than giving it up is a better outcome for the bird, there are too many birds looking for new homes or are sitting in cages with no human interaction simply because the humans of the house do not know how to deal with the problem or that their lifestyles are such that they do not/will not alot the time necessary to find a solution. I think I’ve only suggested someone give up newly acquired birds because they intended to purchase one (1) macaw, but walked away with two, then they could not understand why they were having trouble with the birds & that the birds ran from them and wanted to be by themselves, yet they professed to have thoroughly researched the species. My post there received several curt responses…..guess reading between the lines is not a trait a lot of us don’t have!

I don’t know if you know a lot about we Americans, but we are a throw away society, where too many of us look to our own creature comforts before we do those of our charges. We are impulse buyers and if we purchase/acquire something that ends up being too difficult to assemble or too difficult to deal with, we get rid of it…..and given that we are impulse buyers, we don’t always consider what is involved in stewarding a companion parrot, let alone finding the time to properly train ourselves, let alone the birds and/or other animal we may acquire…..

I have no problem standing & accepting a thrashing, but I want the thrasher to know the method of my madness…..

Hope the bee got out, but if not, I stand by my beliefs and fully respect yours ! ! !

By the way, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but I do believe there is a quid pro quo.....

 

[MonicaMc]

Does he always lunge when there's food on the playgym? If yes, is it safe to assume he doesn't lunge if there isn't food on the playgym?

If he doesn't lunge when there's no food on his playgym, could you not put food there for him?


If he lunges when you go to wipe up his poops, can you not move him to another location first before cleaning up after him?


What about teaching him to station in or on his cage? Or teach him to move to a perch off his cage and station there while you service his cage?
Stationing | Lara Joseph


And..... rather than getting bitten, why not try to learn what sets him off and avoid situations where he will bite, therefore avoiding the bite altogether? The only bite that can't be rewarded is the one that never occurs.

 

[DallyTsuka]

i'm learning from these suggestions as well, so thanks!

 

[Mayden]

Does he always lunge when there's food on the playgym? If yes, is it safe to assume he doesn't lunge if there isn't food on the playgym?

If he doesn't lunge when there's no food on his playgym, could you not put food there for him?


If he lunges when you go to wipe up his poops, can you not move him to another location first before cleaning up after him?


What about teaching him to station in or on his cage? Or teach him to move to a perch off his cage and station there while you service his cage?
Stationing | Lara Joseph


And..... rather than getting bitten, why not try to learn what sets him off and avoid situations where he will bite, therefore avoiding the bite altogether? The only bite that can't be rewarded is the one that never occurs.

The amount of times I've been bitten for trying to clean up a poop near Merlin... we pick him up, shift him elsewhere and then clean it up, it's the only bite safe (and that's if he lets us pick him up!) way of doing it.

Birds are a royal pain sometimes.

 

[Mayden]

Although I do suggest wing clipping as a quick way to try getting a handle on a situation that may appear to be unmanageable to a parrot owner at the moment. Sometimes you have to read between the lines on messages/posts…..especially if there sounds like a prolonged solution might bring more distress than a quick solution.

I’ll agree with you that muscle development may be delayed in the six months between clipping and molting, but the flight feathers are restored with the next molt and for a bird that has already fledged, it is only a delay. In this case the bird is four months old and his first molt will be earlier than six months away. I have all of my birds flighted & deal with any problems on an extended basis, if that’s required, but everybody does not want to deal with these types of problems…especially if they require too much time.

I agree with what you are saying about people are being too quick to throw away animals that prove problematic. But I still disagree with people jumping straight to clipping. Clipping is a choice that shouldn't be taken lightly and even 'delaying' development isn't exactly first choice. Clipped vs unclipped is not a debate for this post, I was just merely pointing out that clipping is not something that someone with a problematic bird should just jump to "OH, lets get him clipped, that'll fix all problems" only to end up with a clipped bird with a nasty bite because the owner hasn't addressed the real problem.

That is my issue.

 

[KCJames]

I had my last GCC for 22 years. I try not to compare the behavior though it is difficult at times.
He will lunge whether there is food or not, on the playgym, he does the same with toys. When nothing is there he is great, steps up like he is told, I can OFFER treats and toys but as soon as he gets them he wants away and nothing to do with me or anyone else.
He has his cuddly moments and seeks attention from everyone.
Since my last post things have gotten better, I use a stick to get him to step up on when he near something he wants to guard. He will bite but I persist. I don't let him have his way, I make eye contact or give a wobble correction and he seems to do it less often. I think it will just take more time and patience which I have. Monkey went through a difficult molt once and he wanted to stay hands off for over a month. For several months after he was very fussy about being petted or cuddling. I worked him through it and I have faith that Louie will be alright also.
I joined here for some "New School" advice.
Thak you everyone!!!

 

[Parrotdise]

I really agree with Monica's suggestion. I have been around various parrots coming from a family who loves birds. I would try to find what is causing the aggression and avoid it, but some rare cases you can't, like for instance when just placing the food in the cage you find yourself getting bit. What it has come down to for some birds is taking that dish of food away when the aggression starts. I say something like" i guess you aren't hungry, when you are nice i will give you your food back." You will be surprised what they understand. Taking the dish away a couple of times usually works. In an extreme case with Sierra; because Amazons do like to play games, I went and got the garbage can and dumped her food out. I said i guess you don't want your food so i am throwing it away. It made me want to cry when i did it, but when returned a little later with her food, she let me place her food back in the cage. She has never been food aggressive since.

 

[MonicaMc]

If you want "New School" advice, then I'd recommend to stop forcing him onto a perch and stop the "earthquaker" method! Both are "old school" and although still extremely common and recommended by many, it is not recommended by people who train using positive reinforcement! And if they do use that method, it's extremely rare! Might be used once or twice on a bird, but they'll quickly try to find other methods that work in the birds favor, not against them!

He's biting because you are persisting in something he has no interest in. The reward is not great enough for him to do as you ask, so he's telling you "No" by biting you. You need to find something he's willing to work for, and find a way to give it to him without getting bit. This may require using a spoon, measuring spoon or other device to keep your fingers a safe distance away.



If Parrotdise taught Sierra how to station inside the cage, then it's quite possible that she could avoided having to dump Sierra's food or "starve" her until she acted better. Yes, the method worked, but it's not necessarily an ideal one - what if Sierra didn't learn from it? A lot of birds are food aggressive and don't always understand our punishment techniques - especially when we use them incorrectly. Parrotdise is pretty lucky to have a smart bird like Sierra!


A Question About an Issue with Nipping | Lara Joseph

 

[Parrotdise]

I have worked with some difficult Amazons one blue fronted we took in at one point had not been never handled, she was 4. I was told her breeder held her by a glove, her story was horrible (something you should never do) and a strange one that did not match up. When you have a bird that can not be touched and will not station, such as Sierra who also could not be held either, this was the faster way to end the aggression. Pepper the blue fronted female we had did learn to station at a later point. We were even able to teach her tricks from inside the cage. I guess working with a couple of nearly wild birds is a little different.

 

[MonicaMc]

You don't have to touch a bird to teach it to station. You don't even have to remove the bird from it's cage to teach it.

"will not station" - was the training ever tried at first?


I did start work trying to gain the trust of a breeder amazon. She was parent raised and came from a breeders home. I think she was a small BFA with a lot of yellow, but could be mistaken. She readily accepted sunflower seeds for the first couple of days, and after that, she decided that fingers would make a better snack! She could not be handled either, but that didn't stop me from trying! Didn't get to work with her beyond that, since I was only visiting from up north and had to return.

She's not the first 'unhandable' amazon I've been bitten by, but the first one I was able to try and work with, as minor as it was.

 

[MonicaMc]

Was just thinking about this... many zoo animals are not touched or handled by the zookeepers/animal handlers at all. The animals may potentially be dangerous, and short of declawing and defanging them, the animals are often trained in a hands off approach.

Just a random thought...

 

[sodakat]

I get the impression this bird has been in the home just a few days. If this is the case then all of the behaviors seem "normal" to me.

 

[Parrotdise]

I realize you don't have to touch a bird in order to station. Giving Sierra treats was the only way to connect with her at first, but there were days in the beginning days when this was not okay with her. It took her a while to warm up to even doing that. I do work and could not devote an entire morning to this, however when i came home i spent countless hours with Sierra in order to her the point she is. I am glad you were able to spend time with an amazon. They sure are enjoyable even if untame. You are more than welcome to check out my sweetheart, i have a couple of videos of her on here.

 

[KCJames]

I spoke with a different breeder who stated that it was possible that since he was not dominant in his clutch maybe he was bullied and had to fight for food. I have been working with him and have seen some improvement in the sense that he is more relaxed in his posture. I don't see displays of aggression. The biting and lunging has decreased but is not gone. I also have him on a perch when we eat dinner. He sees us eat and he does not display aggressive behavior when he comes to our plates.
Could it just be territorial?

 

[KCJames]

Things have improved by leaps and bounds. I was mis reading his body language and since avoiding bites I have not been bitten! Go figure.
For as much as I say I am not comparing him to my previous GCC i obviously was in the sense that his body language does not mean the same thing. He is very much his own bird.