He flies! (With the grace of a cargo jet with a drunken pilot).

[Kiwibird]

And mine are startle trained, which helps. I wouldn't take them outside if they weren't. A bird that spooks easily takes off on you...

It would probably take a bomb going off to spook Kiwi. Very little scares him, not predatory animals, not shadows, not loud noises. He's been coming outside/out and about for several years. He loves it and is never scared of anything. The home we got him from was overrun with dogs and cats and other birds and other animals. No idea what the home prior to that one was like, but he does occasionally say "hi" in the voice of a young girl, so probably kids and other animals too. Guess he had to be tough? Or maybe just a bold bird by nature?

His flights don't seem to be fear based responses, though I have (as of yet) been unable to figure out what makes him take off at any given time. Just decides to go for it? Decides the humans need a good scare? The devil makes him do it:33:? Probably that last one...

 

[Birdman666]

Yeah.

Tusk and Lila are the only birds in my flock that I worry about spooking.

And it's really just Tusk. Because Lila will follow Tusk if he goes...

 

[Kiwibird]

There is no question that even as smart as they are, when they launch for any number of reasons, rarely are they thinking about what is in front of them, but fully absorb in getting away from or staying aloft and not what is rapidly happening in front of them.

The process of the ongoing presentation and practice of flight paths is to work at hardwiring (building muscle memory) so that deep in their mind, that training is beginning to over-come the 'Flight' reaction. Thus even if it is moments before the crash and their mind clicks to the reality of 'Wall Dead Ahead!' they at a subconscious level have the been working at an option.

So, do you walk into a wall, yes you do! And, moments before the slow-speed crash, lots of pre-crash OMG's, Look-outs, etc... Once, the crash has occurred, then its a ton of; Are You Okay, What Happened! The important part is to now repeat the path, but this time, at about seven feet away, start adding: OMG, Looking out, we are going to crash and then pull a hard turn to avoid the crash.

Everyone of our Amazons have looked at me like I was out of my mind, after all they saw the Wall coming and I still walked into it. Dump Human!!! Now with the avoid the crash walk, by the third time I was getting, geeee you finely figured that out!!! Those are the moments that is a glimpse that they are getting it. The assurance is when they start leaning heavy to avoid the crash - full body twist and also looking at you like: Hey wake-up you are taking us into that Wall! Dump Human!!!

Enjoy! The first time you get that 'Dump Human' look, take pride in the moment!

Lol! I definitely got a look of "WTF are you doing" this morning when I walked into the wall/coat rack at the bottom of the stairs. That's the area that worries me most. He likes climbing the stairs, but they also seem to be what triggered him to start flying in the first place (trying to encourage him to climb down and he jumped instead). There is literally no where for him to go unless he makes a maneuver that would take an expert flyer. I got him flapping his happy little butt all the way down then straight into the wall. I let his beak tap the wall (gently, of course). He won't just need to make one precariously sharp turn to avoid the immediate wall at the bottom of the stairs though, he will then need to make another immediate sharp turn after that to loop back down the hallway. This condo is like a labyrinth or one of those corn mazes. Tight turns, narrow walkways, lots of walls to hit... I will make a bigger ordeal out of "crashing" next time with lots of exaggeration and drama! Curious, since the ultimate result of him missing his turn and crashing for real would be to hit the wall and flop to the floor, should I set him down too after the crash so he gets turning means remaining airborne/crashing means hitting the floor?

 

[Kiwibird]

Instead of trying to explain, here is the situation I'm trying to deal with in perhaps the worst possible layout for a beginner flyer to try to learn in. Especially since Kiwi is a decent sized bird and has a good sized wing-span. If he were a conure I wouldn't even be worried, but he's so large and clumsy!

This is my main area of concern. See what I mean about 2 sharp turns? The door next to the front door is my husbands office and has to be closed all day long, as he works from home now and simply can't have Kiwi flying in there (not to mention lots of computer equipment and non-parrot secured cords/other hazards). I'm good about unplugging all unsecured cords when we leave but my husbands computer stuff can't really just be unplugged and re-plugged in all the time, so the door is forever closed and Kiwi isn't really allowed in that room. The other door is the bathroom, which also needs to be closed. The bathroom is a narrow "L" shape and I can't even fully extend my arms in there, there is no way he could fly in there, period and theres a big mirror right there when the door is open.

Then we have the rest of the place! Lots of odd architecture and the huge open loft with not much space on either side that makes it a veritable nightmare for flight.

Any further suggestions with "flight paths" now that you can visualize the space we're working with?

 

[SailBoat]

Well April, you never seem to bring an easy challenge!

What you are faced with is a continuous, long, and rapid dropping style landing with turns that requires deep cutting motions of the Wings that reach-out and pull deep under the Chest. Looks like the Wing tips are trying to touch. What that specific technic is doing is creating a huge ball of compressed air under the Chest. One of the many terms used for this technic is Helicoptering. It can also be seem when a 'practiced' flyer finds the need for a fast drop-in landing!

It is not a 101 level flight technic! It is more a 400 level flight technic. That does not meant that Kiwi cannot learn to use it. The 'Technic' is to teach strong 'lifting' Wing Cuts, while walking down the stairs. It will take time and lots of time-on the steps. FYI: Yes, its the same Wing actions for going up! The only difference the number (rate) of strokes. Long story short, is takes time and practice, practice, practice. Very healthy for both of you.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Lovin' this thread!

 

[Kiwibird]

Well April, you never seem to bring an easy challenge!

What you are faced with is a continuous, long, and rapid dropping style landing with turns that requires deep cutting motions of the Wings that reach-out and pull deep under the Chest. Looks like the Wing tips are trying to touch. What that specific technic is doing is creating a huge ball of compressed air under the Chest. One of the many terms used for this technic is Helicoptering. It can also be seem when a 'practiced' flyer finds the need for a fast drop-in landing!

It is not a 101 level flight technic! It is more a 400 level flight technic. That does not meant that Kiwi cannot learn to use it. The 'Technic' is to teach strong 'lifting' Wing Cuts, while walking down the stairs. It will take time and lots of time-on the steps. FYI: Yes, its the same Wing actions for going up! The only difference the number (rate) of strokes. Long story short, is takes time and practice, practice, practice. Very healthy for both of you.

OMG! If what you're describing is what I think, we may already be on our way to that motion. We've been practicing flapping down the stairs and around turn 1 for several months. He know understands when to open his wings (once we hit open banister) and keeps going the whole way down. I still have to turn him. I know he's adjusted his flight to the steep incline with practice, I can feel it (speaking of, it truly is an odd sensation to have a large flying bird firmly affixed to your hand!). We went in and demanded hubby take a video of Mr. Happy Flappy going down the stairs for your expert analysis (anyone welcome to chime in) And Sailboat, truly, I always appreciate your wonderful advice!

One last thing, he did not wack his wing on the wall at the end, it just look like he did because of the camera angle. I'm pretty careful with my little guy:07:

[ame="https://youtu.be/ToqMYCv_RHA"]Kiwiflys - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Inger]

This is the best thing I've seen all day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SailBoat]

Please thank Hubby for taking the Video!

Yes, Kiwi and you are well underway in building in this technic! Congratulations!

Please also thank both Kiwi and your Hubby for presenting and catching a very interesting motion of the up-lifting Wing action! The formation of a gap that quickly develops (opens) between the body and the Intern-Wing. You will see it in the first several full flaps. It is seen as a flash of light as the Wing Transition from a down stroke to and thru the up stroke next to the body. What this very unique occurrence supports is eliminating pressure on top of the Wing as the Wing lifts. It is kind of like the difference of lifting an open hand in water and turning the hand on its side. High Tech, Insider, Flight Knowledge provided by Kiwi.

Note: Take a look at the tail feathers! You will see him vary (spread) them a little! As his landing technic improves, you will see him open the tail feather structure even more. This fanning action defines a growing knowledge of the combined efforts of Wings and Tail Feathers to create that ball of compressed air under his chest. You may also see him begin to adjust that down tuck of the tail feathers.

Nerd Alert:
There is a growing body of 'belief' that the tiny 'hairs' that sit between the body (chest) feathers and the skin provide feedback as to the amount of pressure that exists under the chest. As this pressure increases or decreases defines the size of the spread and down tuck of the tail feathers and the depth of the cut of the Wings!

"speaking of, it truly is an odd sensation to have a large flying bird firmly affixed to your hand!" No question, and with time you may even feel him increase and decrease the pressure separately with each claw as he leans for a turn.

Over the years, I have never been sure who is having more fun - I'm going with both!

Enjoy!

 

[Ladyhawk]

Wow, have I got a lot to learn! Back when I got my Gabby bird and bred African greys and Senegals, the prevailing logic was to always clip. A flighted Amazon can be extremely snarky. Also, they are not as aerodynamic as some other parrots. I'd like to take a crash course on this before little one fledges. I can start with this thread. Could someone send me to some good videos on the subject? Thanks in advance.

To me, having a flighted bird is very scary, but if there is good info out there, I want to consider it for the sake of my little one.

 

[SailBoat]

Wow, have I got a lot to learn! Back when I got my Gabby bird and bred African greys and Senegals, the prevailing logic was to always clip. A flighted Amazon can be extremely snarky. Also, they are not as aerodynamic as some other parrots. I'd like to take a crash course on this before little one fledges. I can start with this thread. Could someone send me to some good videos on the subject? Thanks in advance.

To me, having a flighted bird is very scary, but if there is good info out there, I want to consider it for the sake of my little one.

Until you have experienced an Adult Amazon that had been wild catch as an Adult flying, you cannot understand the amazing flight abilities that they have.

Please note, the aerodynamics of a MAC; light body to flight surface area compared to an Amazon; heavy body to flight surface area has everything to do with the style of flight needed for the range that they fly within.

"A flighted Amazon can be extremely snarky." That has more to do with Socializing and assuring that one's Amazon is not sleep deprived than the fact that its an Amazon. Our Amazons have all been allowed to be fully flighted and none of them have been one bit snarky. That said, if an Amazon is clearly 'presenting' that it is unhappy and losing control: The results are all the fault of the Human that kept pushing!

The good news of the Amazon Bad Rap is that those who should not have an Amazon do not get them, and that is a good thing!

 

[Kiwibird]

Please thank Hubby for taking the Video!

Yes, Kiwi and you are well underway in building in this technic! Congratulations!

Please also thank both Kiwi and your Hubby for presenting and catching a very interesting motion of the up-lifting Wing action! The formation of a gap that quickly develops (opens) between the body and the Intern-Wing. You will see it in the first several full flaps. It is seen as a flash of light as the Wing Transition from a down stroke to and thru the up stroke next to the body. What this very unique occurrence supports is eliminating pressure on top of the Wing as the Wing lifts. It is kind of like the difference of lifting an open hand in water and turning the hand on its side. High Tech, Insider, Flight Knowledge provided by Kiwi.

Note: Take a look at the tail feathers! You will see him vary (spread) them a little! As his landing technic improves, you will see him open the tail feather structure even more. This fanning action defines a growing knowledge of the combined efforts of Wings and Tail Feathers to create that ball of compressed air under his chest. You may also see him begin to adjust that down tuck of the tail feathers.

Nerd Alert:
There is a growing body of 'belief' that the tiny 'hairs' that sit between the body (chest) feathers and the skin provide feedback as to the amount of pressure that exists under the chest. As this pressure increases or decreases defines the size of the spread and down tuck of the tail feathers and the depth of the cut of the Wings!

"speaking of, it truly is an odd sensation to have a large flying bird firmly affixed to your hand!" No question, and with time you may even feel him increase and decrease the pressure separately with each claw as he leans for a turn.

Over the years, I have never been sure who is having more fun - I'm going with both!

Enjoy!

I do see what you're talking about when I slow the video wayyyy down! Is this a reaction to a steep downward motion then? When I'm just doing 'circles' with him in the living room, I raise and lower my arm so he learns to adjust for down and up (or at least, that's my theory, I've never really consulted anyone about these exercises before). I can feel a similar "drag" when I pull my arm down as he adjusts while when we go "up" it is much less "pressure" (?). His wings are also "wider" when going straight or up and do pull in more going down. Now if only he could apply these techniques to when he tries to fly on his own I wish I still had them, but when I was in high school and took some college photography courses, the subject matter for my "high speed" project was Lucy, the DYH. She is a incredible flyer (wild caught). Those were amazing photos of her wings and I got her flying down from about a 15' ledge along with level flight and flying up from the floor. My parents living room was so bright, I was able to use an extremely high shutter speed and pretty much got stop motion with no blur of what her wings were doing. DSLR's and camera phones were still way too expensive at that time, so that was all film photography (which has only recently been matched and surpassed by digital, actually). Sadly, I simply have no clue what ever became of those photos, but they were big 8x10 prints and stunning.

P.S. I never knew he had a hairy chest under his plumage I'm sure as an adult male bird, he'll be thrilled with the news

P.P.S. As Kiwi is not the "cuddling" type, so yes, it is pretty nice to have a bonding activity to do with him he consistently enjoys and continues reinforcing our bond and his trust in me. After all, we were told when we bought him he was one of those birds who "hates women":20: I hope it can someday translate into recall and flying to me instead of on me.

 

[Kiwibird]

Wow, have I got a lot to learn! Back when I got my Gabby bird and bred African greys and Senegals, the prevailing logic was to always clip. A flighted Amazon can be extremely snarky. Also, they are not as aerodynamic as some other parrots. I'd like to take a crash course on this before little one fledges. I can start with this thread. Could someone send me to some good videos on the subject? Thanks in advance.

To me, having a flighted bird is very scary, but if there is good info out there, I want to consider it for the sake of my little one.

I grew up with 2 fully flighted amazons, a wild caught female DYH (amazing flyer) and a male GCA (average flyer) my parents raised from not much older than your baby and taught to fly themselves. The male didn't have an aggressive bone in his body and never bothered or bit or attacked anyone ever, likely because he was raised from a baby by humans and never mistreated his whole life. The DYH was likely taken in a traumatizing way from her home in the jungle by a man and has had a vendetta against all men ever since. She knows my dad won't hurt her, but she still doesn't like him and occasionally dive bombs him to this day. If we had bought Kiwi as a baby, he'd be flighted, but we adopted him when he was 10 and had never learned to fly/always clipped. He had other behavioral/aggression/trust/diet issues that needed to be addressed first and took several years to really overcome too. That's why we're where we are with him.

Clipping is of course purely a personal choice and a clipped bird can still lead a happy healthy life. Along the lines of what Sailboat said though, attitude problems mainly stem from poor socialization or mistreatment or abuse/neglect, not being a flighted vs clipped bird in a loving home. I also understand that it used to not be very common knowledge that parrots went through puberty and the normal behavioral changes often came as a shock and the owners had no clue how to handle it correctly. That is not the case any more and there are many ways to deal with hormones in a flighted amazon or clipped one. Being clipped can come with it's own set of dependency and behavioral issues as well.

You have somewhat of a unique situation, as you have skills to be able to raise your baby from such a small size. Most people who buy a baby get their baby fully weaned and if the baby is flighted, the breeder taught it, not the owner. That or the owner waited a year or more for the clip from the breeder to grow out to teach the now juvenile bird to fly. You really have an opportunity to end up with a bird like my parents male amazon who was fledged at the developmentally appropriate time for a baby bird to learn and as sweet as they come personality wise I know I'd be interested to see a thread where it was discussed how to teach a baby to fly! Just like human infants, the parrot brain has a period of rapid development where their ability to learn things is much higher and decreases with age.

 

[SailBoat]

The opening occurs across a wide range of flight. It become more apparent as the need to increase the compression results in larger deeper cuts of the wings and as a result the increased distances of the lifting Wing.

Going up would have less feel of the pressure as each stroke of the Wings works to pull the Amazon up off of the last compressed air ball. When Landing or losing elevation, one is constantly riding on (just at the leading edge of) the last compressed air ball. Much easier to feel and see than to write about.

It is comparable to the different settings of an Aircraft wing flaps for take off compared to landing. Take-off and level flight require less depth (flap adjustment) than during landing as forward motion continues to slow. FYI: In an emergency take-off, fear driven, that is much like landing as the demand to rapidly lift places an increase demand for deep cutting Wing Flapping.

It is likely that those photos are quietly sitting in a draw someplace at you Parents home waiting to be found.

 

[SailBoat]

Yaaa, the hairy chest thing. Bad news Kiwi, its a shared thing with all Parrots and likely all flighted birds in general. The bad part, both boys and girls have them. Sorry Kiwi.

 

[Birdman666]

Sally wasn't wild caught, but she has been free flighted since she was about 2.5 years old. She is an amazing flyer. Like I say... negotiates corners. Lands softly on target every time.

My only wild caught bird is my LCA. She's content to perch potato with Tusk. She is a strong flyer.

Kiwi is a strong flyer as well. She flies back and forth to the coffee table playstand, in the air, with clipped wings. She also taught herself to climb stairs.

Pecker, like I say, didn't fly. That bird LAUNCHED herself to my shoulder from her cage when I came home at night. 3-2-1... HERE I COME... Blink, and there she was... Set her down, and she's right back on your shoulder a few seconds later. She was a velcro bird and a half... my "head in the eye socket bird.."

My Kiwi has also become a head in the eye socket bird, by the way... that bird is just amazing!!

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Amy never fledged,at four months old when she picked me and came home with me,I had her clipped ( I was young and nieve about birds 30 years ago).
She doesn't even attempt to TRY and fly...oh sure,she has made four or five poor attempts when spooked,and ONCE she made a ten or twelve foot attempt from the top of her mansion to Beeb's roof top,but that's it.
She'll either walk to where she wants to go,or has Dad be her taxi
She's more content to hang out on my shoulder,or go places in the car with me,which she does quite often. She gets so involved,and wrapped up,in the goings on when we go places,I think she just doesn't CARE to fly lol.



Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Well April, you never seem to bring an easy challenge!

What you are faced with is a continuous, long, and rapid dropping style landing with turns that requires deep cutting motions of the Wings that reach-out and pull deep under the Chest. Looks like the Wing tips are trying to touch. What that specific technic is doing is creating a huge ball of compressed air under the Chest. One of the many terms used for this technic is Helicoptering. It can also be seem when a 'practiced' flyer finds the need for a fast drop-in landing!

It is not a 101 level flight technic! It is more a 400 level flight technic. That does not meant that Kiwi cannot learn to use it. The 'Technic' is to teach strong 'lifting' Wing Cuts, while walking down the stairs. It will take time and lots of time-on the steps. FYI: Yes, its the same Wing actions for going up! The only difference the number (rate) of strokes. Long story short, is takes time and practice, practice, practice. Very healthy for both of you.

OMG! If what you're describing is what I think, we may already be on our way to that motion. We've been practicing flapping down the stairs and around turn 1 for several months. He know understands when to open his wings (once we hit open banister) and keeps going the whole way down. I still have to turn him. I know he's adjusted his flight to the steep incline with practice, I can feel it (speaking of, it truly is an odd sensation to have a large flying bird firmly affixed to your hand!). We went in and demanded hubby take a video of Mr. Happy Flappy going down the stairs for your expert analysis (anyone welcome to chime in) And Sailboat, truly, I always appreciate your wonderful advice!

One last thing, he did not wack his wing on the wall at the end, it just look like he did because of the camera angle. I'm pretty careful with my little guy:07:

[ame="https://youtu.be/ToqMYCv_RHA"]Kiwiflys - YouTube[/ame]

April? How did you get Kiwi to wave his arms like that?? How did he know? was it your verbal "command" that he learned from you?
Geez I'd like to try something like that with Amy.



Jim

 

[Kiwibird]

April? How did you get Kiwi to wave his arms like that?? How did he know? was it your verbal "command" that he learned from you?
Geez I'd like to try something like that with Amy.



Jim

When I was a kid, I used to give Lucy the ever understanding and patient DYH a "running start" with her flying (large house, skillful flyer, not a big deal). Unlike Kiwi, as soon as I'd release her feet she'd take off and loop back to land on me again, Kiwi just digs his talons in for dear life if I let his feet go. I couldn't tell you how I ever figured it out, but if you give a bird a gentle but firm tug forward at a slightly downward angle they'll open their wings instinctively (or, alternatively, a gentle but firm tug straight down). It's a matter of conditioning them to keep flapping with the continuing forward movement once they get started.

I started "exercising" Kiwi this way about 5 years ago because the vet said his muscles were underdeveloped from not flying and he had no apparent interest in learning. When I first started, he'd flop over because he couldn't hold himself up while moving forward and he'd be out of breath after a few feet. To keep him "secure" I hold the front toes with my thumb and forefinger and the back toes between my ring and pinky finger. He can do a couple laps around the living room now without being winded and he loves the activity. He really puts his whole little heart into his flapping and his eyes go nuts when I put him down and he makes all kinds of happy noises/body language If you can get Amy to open her wings, I bet with some practice you can get her to take "pretend flights" around the room too! Oh, and there's no cue, I just usually shout some kind of exciting encouragement The bird loves being praised and getting kisses

Oh and Sailboat brought up an important point earlier in thread that I never thought about when I started exercising Kiwi this way- it might be a good idea to have the vet clear Amy for "flight" first. Kiwi did really used to huff and puff at first until he got in better shape.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

April? How did you get Kiwi to wave his arms like that?? How did he know? was it your verbal "command" that he learned from you?
Geez I'd like to try something like that with Amy.



Jim

When I was a kid, I used to give Lucy the ever understanding and patient DYH a "running start" with her flying (large house, skillful flyer, not a big deal). Unlike Kiwi, as soon as I'd release her feet she'd take off and loop back to land on me again, Kiwi just digs his talons in for dear life if I let his feet go. I couldn't tell you how I ever figured it out, but if you give a bird a gentle but firm tug forward at a slightly downward angle they'll open their wings instinctively (or, alternatively, a gentle but firm tug straight down). It's a matter of conditioning them to keep flapping with the continuing forward movement once they get started.

I started "exercising" Kiwi this way about 5 years ago because the vet said his muscles were underdeveloped from not flying and he had no apparent interest in learning. When I first started, he'd flop over because he couldn't hold himself up while moving forward and he'd be out of breath after a few feet. To keep him "secure" I hold the front toes with my thumb and forefinger and the back toes between my ring and pinky finger. He can do a couple laps around the living room now without being winded and he loves the activity. He really puts his whole little heart into his flapping and his eyes go nuts when I put him down and he makes all kinds of happy noises/body language If you can get Amy to open her wings, I bet with some practice you can get her to take "pretend flights" around the room too! Oh, and there's no cue, I just usually shout some kind of exciting encouragement The bird loves being praised and getting kisses

Oh and Sailboat brought up an important point earlier in thread that I never thought about when I started exercising Kiwi this way- it might be a good idea to have the vet clear Amy for "flight" first. Kiwi did really used to huff and puff at first until he got in better shape.

A couple months ago ( after watching a ton of Amazon free-flight YouTube vids) I was/am interested in trying to get Amy into that,and when I posted my thought,Steven, (Boat's) suggested a thorough check-up with Amys' CAV..so just a couple months ago,when I took her and Beebs in for their yearly wellness check,I mentioned to the Doc my interest in free-flight.
The Doc did do a listen to her heart and lungs (air sac) and groped her for muscle tone,and gave the "all's good" for slowly introducing Amy into arm waving and exercise..




Jim